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Questions raised over Southern rail franchise

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cactustwirly

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from the BBC http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35249843
Questions have been raised over Southern's rail franchise after months of complaints from passengers and MPs.
MPs have recently branded the service a "joke" and said it is quicker to fly to space than travel to the coast.
On Tuesday, Mid Sussex MP Sir Nicholas Soames asked in parliament in what circumstances the Southern franchise could be withdrawn.
David Scorey, Southern's passenger services director, said the company was delivering according to its contract.
BBC Surrey's political reporter, Jack Fiehn, said the past 18 months had seen disruption to Southern services due to rebuilding work at London Bridge, engineering over Christmas, a recent signal failure, overcrowding and a lack of drivers highlighted by Sam Gyimah MP.
Commuters described journeys where they have been physically unable to get on trains due to cancellations leading to two lots of passengers trying to board the next service.
Reigate MP Crispin Blunt said Southern's performance in the past year suggested the company was not fit to run the franchise and it was up to the rail minister to hold Southern to account.
He said people deserved a reliable service and added: "If this company can't deliver it, then plainly we should be looking elsewhere."
But Mr Scorey said: "We've got a contract with government and we're delivering against that contract."
"I think it's a matter for the secretary of state and the minister to respond to Sir Nicholas but we're doing everything that we ought to be doing to improve performance."
He said congestion and reduced infrastructure as a result of rebuilding work at London Bridge had seen a greater impact on performance than anybody anticipated.
Steps taken to improve the service had included employing more drivers, working with Network Rail on track, signalling and points, and improving the fleet, but Southern was seeking other options, he added.
He said Southern - which operates in Sussex, Surrey and parts of Kent and Hampshire - was carrying 30% more passengers than five years ago, which was a success story but had created capacity constraints.
Rail bosses and politicians are due to meet on 18 January.

not hardly surprising
 
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Domh245

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What percentage of problems are caused by southern, and what percentage by Network Rail?
 

455driver

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What percentage of problems are caused by southern, and what percentage by Network Rail?

Why would they let the facts get in the way of a moan about some private TOC or other!
The article is very light on facts but full of rhetoric.
 

A-driver

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If put serious money that nothing will come of this. GTR is a major franchise and Thameslink is one of the largest rail projects since the channel tunnel. I can't see the government taking it off them or letting them give it back-not only would it be too embarrassing for them but it could potentially further delay the Thameslink project.
 

talldave

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Time for another pointless petition - NOT!

So they're a bit incompetent, especially in the customer services department, but what does everyone shouting expect instead?
 

Bantamzen

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Oh how I laughed at this sentence:

MPs have recently branded the service a "joke" and said it is quicker to fly to space than travel to the coast.

So, how long does it take to fly to space? Let's ask a NASA launch technician:

How long does it take to get the shuttle into space?

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/shuttle/shuttlemissions/sts121/launch/qa-leinbach.html

It takes the shuttle approximately 8-1/2 minutes to get to orbit. And if you think about it, we're accelerating a 4-1/2 million pound system from zero miles per hour to its orbital velocity of 17,500 miles per hour in those 8-1/2 minutes. So it's a heck of a ride for the astronauts. They typically experience about three times the force of gravity during most of the ascent, and once we reach orbit, when the main engines cut off, they go from that three-G acceleration to zero acceleration virtually instantaneously, and that's when they become weightless on orbit.

So assuming that the public / MPs are angry at the time it takes to get from London to the South Coast, and they expect it to be quicker than getting into space then the only solution seems to be to invest in a whole new transport system that can cross the Southern Downs from the capital in less than 8.5 minutes, which could be an interesting ride.... :D
 

TUC

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I think what it demonstrates more are that it is very difficult to manage a large franchise effectively. Generally speaking, it is the more tightly focussed franchises that have greater satisfaction levels. (Caledonian Sleeper being the exception.)
 

EM2

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I know of no group of passengers that are happy with their operator, with the possible exception of Chiltern.
Yet the only companies that want to run train services are the companies that already run train services.
So, if no-one likes the operators, and the operators are the only ones that want to operate, what's the answer?
 

ScotGG

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Ultimately in London and the south east you have the issue of a rapidly rising population and infrastructure upgrades that are years behind their original plans. Oh, and employment increasingly focused in the centre but people not being able to afford to live anywhere close. These frustrations will only increase in coming years.

Some areas have plans that will alleviate, albeit not for long with projections of increases, but some have very few plans and this issue is going nowhere.

It's far bigger than what TOC is running which lines at this time.
 

Clip

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So if no-one likes the DOR, and the DOR are the only ones who operate the railways, what's the answer ?

Shush man. This is RailUK Forums and they have all the answers(most notably those who dont work in the industry and such and such ....) ;)

But if it includes the use of 442s and something about bloody seats and the perfect pitch and cushioning then everything will be fine.
 

sheff1

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More DOR controlled franchises.

Ok then. Please explain how they would change everything ...

Give me East Coast over Virgin anyday. There again, in my view, GNER were better than East Coast but they could not make things pay.

As for Southern/Thameslink/Gatwick Express/Govia, even they do not seem to know who they are so I won't even attempt to comment.
 
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Via Bank

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I know of no group of passengers that are happy with their operator, with the possible exception of Chiltern.
Yet the only companies that want to run train services are the companies that already run train services.
So, if no-one likes the operators, and the operators are the only ones that want to operate, what's the answer?

OK, this grew into a long, probably ill informed rant, but here goes.

TL;DR: I think the answer is for operators to get better at not p*ssing off their customers, by placing value on, and fixing, smaller annoyances, and also displaying a more helpful, proactive attitude to customer service.

Performance is obviously part of this (and GTR's performance has been pretty abysmal, due to factors mainly outside their control) but I think there are other ways they can stop cheesing their customers off quite so much.

For instance, by announcing delays promptly when they happen, and updating the online channels to reflect this. (SN's Twitter regularly fails to mention major incidents that cause significant delays, or only do so when quizzed about it. The rainbow boards on their website are flat out useless.)

For instance, by keeping their customers informed during disruption, preferably not disabling the CIS and automatic announcements during major disruption (this happened to a friend at VIC recently, late at night, with all the gates open and not a single member of staff in sight. Meanwhile Thameslink's CIS is far more interested in telling me about Underground delays on the other side of London than the calling pattern of the next train - but it's not as if the Thameslink route has many varying stopping patterns and branches, and serves two international airports and one international railway station, is it?)

For instance, by bothering to make sure passengers travelling on older types of stock are capable of finding out which train they are on, and where they are. This means drivers actually setting up the PIS correctly on units that have them, and adequate signage being provided at stations. (Try sitting in coaches 6 or 7 of a TL 319 pair at Loughborough Junction going south: it is impossible to see any signage indicating where you are, and often difficult to tell, especially at night, if you have even arrived at a station. And I don't think I've ever been on a 319 with a PIS that's been installed, set up and functioning correctly. Being able to tell what station you're at, and where you're going, is really, really basic stuff.)

For instance, by not using the single most frustrating type of ticket vending machine on the network, making the process of buying a ticket an arduous and error-prone battle through a massive and confusing range of fares. (Consider that the godawful Parkeon machines at GTW and VIC are many visitors' first experience of the UK railway network, then wonder if this is a positive first impression. Also consider that, if you mistakenly buy the wrong ticket, there is a good chance you will be left out of pocket, or liable for a penalty fare.)

For instance, when customers have taken their own time to complain about some aspect of the service, by taking the time to respond to them truthfully, promptly, and without fobbing them off with a form non-apology (that inevitably spends more time puffing up the company's own "investment strategy" or "package of improvements." To their credit, in my experience, they have at least paid out Delay Repay quickly, although I understand arrangements for season ticket holders are not good.)

I say again: the performance being terrible is only part of the problem. The other part is that the Railway's apparent indifference, or apparent incompetence, on other matters, means that many of their regular customers simply do not trust them to run the service to an adequate standard.

True, it might also be NR's or DfT's fault, but the customers, in the main, do not care about that: they are simply sick to the back teeth of poor performance coupled with a service that feels amateurish and poor VfM, all run by a company that seems uninterested in building and maintaining any level of trust with the customer.

Clearly investment in massive infrastructure upgrades is necessary, but I think it is also necessary for GTR to actually (a) invest in getting basic, often minor details right (customer information, ease of buying tickets etc.); (b) get better at the dark art of rebuilding trust with their customer base when that trust has been shot to pieces. This is a soft skill, but it is an important one whose value should not be underestimated.

Anyway. That's my 2p's worth.
 

yorkie

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Well, someone doesn't know what they are talking about. "..rebuilding work at London Bridge, engineering over Christmas, a recent signal failure..." are nothing to do with the Train Company.

As for the references to "Southern", there is no franchise nor Train Company of that name any more! While I'm sure some will see use of a now defunct franchise/company name as a moot point, I would expect an MP to get it right, so it makes me wonder what else they get wrong.
 

andrewkeith5

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On the subject of ticket machines, it might be useful if some of the hundreds of the things installed at gatwick airport ever actually worked fully. I haven't yet seen one that is capable of offering the complete range of what they advertise to do.

I'm also getting fed up of PIS systems not being switched back on after a Thameslink service has swapped power supplies.

Actually telling customers what the problem is would help too, I was at Blackfriars recently where a points failure was also blamed on a signal failure and a train failure. It was a full 20 minutes before any of the staff could come up with a reason, and another 25 minutes on top before they started offering alternatives over the PIS despite them being advertised on the website from the start.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Well, someone doesn't know what they are talking about. "..rebuilding work at London Bridge, engineering over Christmas, a recent signal failure..." are nothing to do with the Train Company.

As for the references to "Southern", there is no franchise nor Train Company of that name any more! While I'm sure some will see use of a now defunct franchise/company name as a moot point, I would expect an MP to get it right, so it makes me wonder what else they get wrong.


In the eyes of the customer, they don't care whether it's Southern or GTR or Network Rail who cause the problem. They deal with the brand Southern and it's that brand that takes the hit, because Southern is not doing enough about the problems to satisfy customers even if they are out of its control.

First Direct are part of he HSBC group, but if they screw up, First Direct takes the blame, not HSBC.

We can go all the way back and blame Go Ahead and Keolis, but ultimately it's the brands that the public care about - that's the whole reason brands, holding companies etc exist.
 

Bishopstone

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What percentage of problems are caused by southern, and what percentage by Network Rail?

Anecdotally, on my commute, about a third of the problems are TOC specific (broken trains, staff shortages etc); twenty per cent external factors (bridge bashes, weather, assaults etc) and the rest can be traced back to Network Rail.

No sane Government would want this hot potato within DOR. Wining and dining folk on crack East Coast expresses was easy, but Southern/Thameslink is going to be a stinking pile of do-do until 2018, and then beyond when the timetable doesn't prove to be robust.

There will remain a profound political need to have an intermediary to kick. Network Rail - now family - can no longer perform this role.
 

A-driver

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I know of no group of passengers that are happy with their operator, with the possible exception of Chiltern.
Yet the only companies that want to run train services are the companies that already run train services.
So, if no-one likes the operators, and the operators are the only ones that want to operate, what's the answer?


I know where you are trying to go with this but the reason it's the same few companies bidding for every franchise is tht the system has made it a closed shop. It costs an absolute fortune to even bid for a franchise and that's before being shortlisted. You couldn't set up a new company to bid for a franchise if up against first and DB etc as they have previous railway experience and the new company wouldn't-a huge drawback

ASLEF considered bidding for the east cost franchise a number of years ago, more as a stunt, but the coat of it made it impossible.

The bids are all about how much money the government will get from it and the company bidding looks to see how much money it will get out of it. Passenger satisfaction and reliability don't really come into it-it's a money making game.
 

DerekC

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Well, someone doesn't know what they are talking about. "..rebuilding work at London Bridge, engineering over Christmas, a recent signal failure..." are nothing to do with the Train Company.

Well, I do recall that GTR got the job on the basis of all their promises to manage the services and their customer relations through the problems that everyone always knew would happen during London Bridge reconstruction. So although the original problems aren't their fault, they don't seem to be doing a grand job of managing the consequences.
 

A-driver

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Well, I do recall that GTR got the job on the basis of all their promises to manage the services and their customer relations through the problems that everyone always knew would happen during London Bridge reconstruction. So although the original problems aren't their fault, they don't seem to be doing a grand job of managing the consequences.


GTR got the 'job' on cost grounds and through the DfTs hatred of first group. GTR didn't get this contract based on any promises made in their bid.
 

Stow

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GTR got the 'job' on cost grounds and through the DfTs hatred of first group. GTR didn't get this contract based on any promises made in their bid.

That is not entirely correct, GTR won on cost grounds yes, but also on quality by some margin IIRC. New Gatx trains, new Moorgate trains etc. Sure 'Modern Railways' covered this at the time.

You have to remember the franchise has only really been running for 6 months in the current from, through which NR problems have been awful. As a BML commuter I can remember the last time I was held up by a TOC issue, always seems to be NR.

Next few months will be interesting - new timetable will bed in, 387/2 introduced, 700 introduced, natural performance uplift in the spring from benign operating conditions, driver recruitment process starts bearing fruit. At least that is what I am hoping for!
 

tony6499

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The only thing that can be blamed at Southern is the staff shortages especially train crew, infrastructure and track problems is NR.

But that will never stop MP's from making cheap sound bites
 

Bishopstone

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The only thing that can be blamed at Southern is the staff shortages especially train crew, infrastructure and track problems is NR.

But that will never stop MP's from making cheap sound bites

MPs make cheap soundbites because vociferous commuters pester them and demand they 'do something'.

If they didn't make cheap soundbites, people would criticise them with other cheap soundbites: lazy, overpaid and uninterested in the plight of the rail traveller etc.

Of course, not many MPs understand the full structural complexity of the railway. But later in the day they might be dealing with a health service issue, an education issue and defence policy. It's a big ask to expect a generalist on £70k pa to know everything about everything before venturing an opinion.
 

Metobusfan

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I know where you are trying to go with this but the reason it's the same few companies bidding for every franchise is tht the system has made it a closed shop. It costs an absolute fortune to even bid for a franchise and that's before being shortlisted. You couldn't set up a new company to bid for a franchise if up against first and DB etc as they have previous railway experience and the new company wouldn't-a huge drawback

ASLEF considered bidding for the east cost franchise a number of years ago, more as a stunt, but the coat of it made it impossible.

The bids are all about how much money the government will get from it and the company bidding looks to see how much money it will get out of it. Passenger satisfaction and reliability don't really come into it-it's a money making game.
Can you imagine if asslef got it hahaha
 

Chrisgr31

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Complaints about TOCs in the south east are becoming tiresome as is MPs jumping on the bandwagon including my own Nus Ghani.

Are GTR to blame for the lack of drivers? Didnt they get fewer drivers from Thameslink than they were expecting? They trained over 100 drivers last year, they have another 95 or so in the training programme. Ironically today they have updated their improvement plan for January, they did have Decembers there which gave more details about drivers!

It doesnt matter who the TOC is the service is likely to be just as bad, customer communication might be better. It is customer communication where they fall down so badly.

I really dont care about my train being a few minutes late, I know it will be. Driving would be even more unreliable. Even though I am on the Uckfield line I rarely have a delay repay, and becuase I am on the Uckfield Line the service has gone from one that was awful pre Southern to one that is now needing longer trains!

Those who are perpetually complaining need to get a grip on reality
 

nottsnurse

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Shush man. This is RailUK Forums and they have all the answers(most notably those who dont work in the industry and such and such ....) ;)

And I bet you never comment on an industry outside of your scope, ever, right?

Me, I'm a Socialist who wants to see railways renationalised. I would be happy for service levels to stay the same as they are, but without the public money being pushed into the hands of private companies.
 
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LeeLivery

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As someone who has been at the mercy of Southern/GTR for 10 years, I must say Southern do my head in. It has never been this bad, yes most problems are NRs fault, however, Southern have a lot to answer for. Staff shortages, strikes, suddenly sacking on-board food staff, broken down trains (even a 455 coming apart in Battersea), numerous short formations, fast running a train being just 5 minutes late, running the most delayed train in the UK - probably Europe, the list goes on.

As for DOR running the service, knowing companies aren't making millions in profits while in many cases taking tax subsides and running an awful service is at least some comfort in rip off Britain.

Quite honestly even if things do improve, Govia need to go (and take Abellio with them).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I really dont care about my train being a few minutes late, I know it will be. Driving would be even more unreliable. Even though I am on the Uckfield line I rarely have a delay repay, and becuase I am on the Uckfield Line the service has gone from one that was awful pre Southern to one that is now needing longer trains!

Those who are perpetually complaining need to get a grip on reality

I wouldn't care if my train was a few minutes late occasionally, but when almost all Southern services you catch is a few mins late for weeks/months it is irritating.
 

Via Bank

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And let us not forget that Southern/GTR are definitely responsible for customer information, customer relations, adequate staffing, ticket buying facilities and managing their stations effectively (including presentation.) You can't blame that on NR.

Like I said, it's not necessarily the constant delays alone that's alienating the customer base. And frankly, when the performance is perpetually terrible, and so is the customer service/info/whatever, they have a right to perpetually complain.
 
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