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c2c more stock

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swt_passenger

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Would it be worth them installing TPWS on the Heathrow branch?

There's a complex document here about proposals for fitting an enhanced TPWS to give ATP like performance between Paddington and Heathrow but only as a 'plan B' if ETCS is not ready by 2018 when Crossrail starts running:

http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf...tcs-plan-b-study-enhanced-tpws-2015-07-18.pdf

If you can make sense of all that, then I'd be impressed. Fitting an ordinary TPWS temporarily as well in the next few weeks to suit this possible mini cascade seems to be unnecessary over complication to me.

Off the wall suggestion here.

Maybe someone somewhere in c2c's PR department has wrongly assumed that a 377/5 is a five car train?
 
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bengley

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There's a complex document here about proposals for fitting an enhanced TPWS to give ATP like performance between Paddington and Heathrow but only as a 'plan B' if ETCS is not ready by 2018 when Crossrail starts running:

http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf...tcs-plan-b-study-enhanced-tpws-2015-07-18.pdf

If you can make sense of all that, then I'd be impressed. Fitting an ordinary TPWS temporarily as well in the next few weeks to suit this possible mini cascade seems to be unnecessary over complication to me.

Off the wall suggestion here.

Maybe someone somewhere in c2c's PR department has wrongly assumed that a 377/5 is a five car train?

That wouldn't surprise me with c2c
 

JN114

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Apologies for going OT, but is GW ATP a leftover from the installation under British Rail? I was under the impression that it is mandatory for all rolling stock on the line.

GW-ATP is mandatory for operations over 100mph on the GWML where ATP trackside equipment is fitted (so between Paddington and Bristol via Box) - the only exception is Class 220/221 operating between Reading and Didcot. When the Airport Branch was constructed it was decided to install ATP from the off, and extend the implementation to T5 when that extension opened.

As the branch, and only trains to operate on it were fully ATP fitted, Railtrack/Network Rail decided TPWS was unnecessary, and it wasn't installed. As such, the 332s aren't TPWS fitted either (they can't get anywhere not ATP-fitted) - the 360s were delivered with TPWS as it was a requirement for new stock by the time they were introduced.

While the Paddington to Hayes bit of Connect could be covered by 387s, the 387 wouldn't be able to go into the airport branch, as it doesn't have ATP. Terminating an up-direction "connect" at Hayes involves an unacceptably long dwell in the Up Relief platform while it turns round, head ways are pushed in the peaks as it is.

On top of all that, the 5-strong fleet of 360s is worked hard as it is. Connects require 3 units, and a 4th (usually 205) is used in the ITT (inter-terminal-transfer). 332s are only permitted to operate DOO with platform dispatch staff, CD and RA indicators - which prevents them being used on Connects as cover. You could however get away with a 332 on the ITT.

Thus, in theory, you could just about scrape by with getting rid of 2 360/2s, but any failure in the 360 fleet would cripple the connect service.
 

southern442

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357-387 conversion course would be easy as the units are largely similar (with regards to equipment locations etc)

They would still have to undertake formal training though, and since the 5-car 360's are becoming surplus soon, you might as well just train the drivers for them. It would also mean that the franchise would become more flexible if a cascade were to happen.

That just had me thinking. When the 360's leave Heathrow Connect, could they be converted back into 4-car and put on AGA, and then the 5th cars could go into the 357's in a 455/508 style hybrid formation?
 

43096

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That just had me thinking. When the 360's leave Heathrow Connect, could they be converted back into 4-car and put on AGA, and then the 5th cars could go into the 357's in a 455/508 style hybrid formation?

Good luck with that...
357 Bombardier built
360 Siemens built

Two completely different designs.
 

southern442

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Utter wibble.

Perhaps I should have made it more clear that I wasn't being completely serious. Not only are they completely different designs of train, I believe the internal couplings are completely different too, so yes it would be a nightmare to try and convert them. :lol:
 

Wivenswold

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Maybe a mini-cascade? 5 car 360's to Stansted Express (Ilford is already equipped for Desiros) and 5 379's to C2C? Assuming the 379s can run with 357s.
 

Dave1987

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They would still have to undertake formal training though, and since the 5-car 360's are becoming surplus soon, you might as well just train the drivers for them. It would also mean that the franchise would become more flexible if a cascade were to happen.

That just had me thinking. When the 360's leave Heathrow Connect, could they be converted back into 4-car and put on AGA, and then the 5th cars could go into the 357's in a 455/508 style hybrid formation?

What? The 387's should be a simple brief if they are broadly similar. They would have to go through a full traction course for 360's, for two units! You would struggle to keep drivers current on their competency. It's not just a case of training drivers on them, they have to drive them at least once in a six month period and have assessments on them.
 
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southern442

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Maybe a mini-cascade? 5 car 360's to Stansted Express (Ilford is already equipped for Desiros) and 5 379's to C2C? Assuming the 379s can run with 357s.

They aren't 5-car though.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
What? The 387's should be a simple brief if they are broadly similar. They would have to go through a full traction course for 360's, for two units! You would struggle to keep drivers current on their competency. It's not just a case of training drivers on them, they have to drive them at least once in a six month period and have assessments on them.

I suppose that you are right with regards to this, but as I just said above, this doesn't make the 387's five carriages long.
 

D365

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That's assuming the reported "2x5-car units" is correct.

JN114, thank you for your posting btw. Very informative.
 
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Maybe a mini-cascade? 5 car 360's to Stansted Express (Ilford is already equipped for Desiros) and 5 379's to C2C? Assuming the 379s can run with 357s.

Ilford is equipped for Desiros, the West Anglia route isn't. The units are not cleared and the crews are not trained.

And a 357 has different couplers to what a 379 has which aren't compatible.
 

Wivenswold

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Ah well, it was worth a thought. I'd still prefer the Heathrow 360s to go to AGA.
 

Class 170101

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More likely to be 360s to Ilford to join thier classmates displacing some 321s to c2c as they are route cleared there. However note in the current scenario 321s are not five car trains.
 

D365

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Cue a 'suggestion' to add spare TSOs to the c2c 321s ;)
 

JN114

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But ultimately it is moot - the only way to release the 360s from Heathrow duties is by cutting the Heathrow Connect service and/or running on 100% fleet utilisation. Any replacement stock would have to be ATP fitted, and there isn't any.

Southern/GTR holding on to some 387/1s and deploying them on the WLL (short forming a couple of diagrams 4v5) to displace 377/7s is the only way c2c are going to get 5 car units, unless LOROL have a surplus of 378s that nobody knows about...

That or whomever at c2c announced 5 car units was mistaken - then a whole raft of options opens up...
 

Pumbaa

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Someone who's usually right about these sort of things has already posted in the thread with what they think it is, and they have the double fortune of it being on their patch this time! That's good enough for me!
 

chris11256

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But ultimately it is moot - the only way to release the 360s from Heathrow duties is by cutting the Heathrow Connect service and/or running on 100% fleet utilisation. Any replacement stock would have to be ATP fitted, and there isn't any.

Southern/GTR holding on to some 387/1s and deploying them on the WLL (short forming a couple of diagrams 4v5) to displace 377/7s is the only way c2c are going to get 5 car units, unless LOROL have a surplus of 378s that nobody knows about...

That or whomever at c2c announced 5 car units was mistaken - then a whole raft of options opens up...

The comment about 5 car units came from their Delivery Director, who's a fairly senior bloke.
 

332 > 444

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Well the rest of the 360s that HAL have need to be in tip top condition as the connect will only have 2 units plus the ITT's unit. At least if one fails, a 332 can be used as a shuttle.

To someone earlier stated that there's despatch at Heathrow stations, that is not the case anymore, its now DOO.
 

southern442

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Southern/GTR holding on to some 387/1s and deploying them on the WLL (short forming a couple of diagrams 4v5) to displace 377/7s is the only way c2c are going to get 5 car units, unless LOROL have a surplus of 378s that nobody knows about...

I doubt that 378's will be considered as their seating layout won't exactly be favoured by many on the c2c route...
 

jcc

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Tony Miles over on wnxx has confirmed that the units are 2x Class 360 from Heathrow Connect.
 

Dave1987

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Tony Miles over on wnxx has confirmed that the units are 2x Class 360 from Heathrow Connect.

Really? That makes no sense what so ever. Why would you take on two units on a short term basis that your drivers don't sign? Unless that was literally all they could get hold of and they are desperate.
 

Simon11

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Really? That makes no sense what so ever. Why would you take on two units on a short term basis that your drivers don't sign? Unless that was literally all they could get hold of and they are desperate.

Yep, thats the answer
 

87015

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Really? That makes no sense what so ever. Why would you take on two units on a short term basis that your drivers don't sign? Unless that was literally all they could get hold of and they are desperate.

It's not really short term though. This is what happens when you are forced into desperate measures by clowns in bid teams who don't understand the real world screwing you over as long as they get their win bonus... Apparently, obviously.
 

Fincra5

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Will they train their drivers... or do what SN did when they had to borrow 350's.. Freight drivers learned the stock etc.
 

swt_passenger

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I'm totally amazed that Heathrow Connect can lose 2 units with no realistic means of replacement.
 
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