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Amateur Radio and the Railways

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BestWestern

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And yet the majority of people between certain ages walk everywhere with a mobile phone clamped to their heads with complete impunity.

You'd have to be pretty dim to take the view that people using a handheld radio were more of a threat than those "hiding in plain sight".

However, as I say, in over quarter of a century using handheld radios I have never been queried. Conversely I have been allowed into situations that were closed to the public because, by accident, my radio made me look official. But that's another story...

The brief is to be aware of things which are unusual. The process of identifying whether or not said occurrence is a problem happens afterwards, and generally through communicating with the person in question.
 
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thenorthern

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I fully understand the security concerns in why the security staff spoke to me yesterday and as I say I cooperated fully with him about it and agreed not to use my radio on the station.

I don't see why though he then had to keep and eye on me until my train arrived and then tell the guard of the train about how bad I was implying I was doing something that is wrong with a device I shouldn't have.

Its a shame though that security staff can't do the same though for the people who smoke on the platform or use e-cigs which are illegal but most of the time ignored.
 

BestWestern

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I fully understand the security concerns in why the security staff spoke to me yesterday and as I say I cooperated fully with him about it and agreed not to use my radio on the station.

I don't see why though he then had to keep and eye on me until my train arrived and then tell the guard of the train about how bad I was implying I was doing something that is wrong with a device I shouldn't have.

Its a shame though that security staff can't do the same though for the people who smoke on the platform or use e-cigs which are illegal but most of the time ignored.

I would agree that the reaction seems to have been rather excessive. I presume there may have been a suspicion that there was potential for some sort of interference with train/station radio gubbins, albeit unfounded.

In fairness, e-cigs (or indeed even real ones) aren't any sort of security issue, real or imagined.
 

LAX54

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Which you could do with your radio off of the station. (If you could do it on the station)
Or on the station by being stood near a member of staff. :rolleyes:

Which off the Station they can do little about, but on the Station they can
 

Lockwood

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Which comes back to why would you want to eavesdrop the station radios on the station in the first place?
 

bnm

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Its a shame though that security staff can't do the same though for the people who smoke on the platform or use e-cigs which are illegal but most of the time ignored.

Hmm. You are well versed in the legal aspects of your chosen hobby, but less well versed in the legal aspects of smoking and e-cigs it seems.

Smoking on railway platforms that are not enclosed or substantially enclosed is only illegal if there is a sign in the vicinity forbidding such activity. That 'sign' could be extended to include public address announcements. No signs and no announcements? Then smoking on a railway platform isn't illegal.

There is neither primary legislation or byelaws to prevent vaping.

Complying with a request to cease the activity of smoking or vaping is sensible, just as it was prudent for you to cease your amateur radio activities when challenged. However, smoking and vaping on unenclosed station platforms may not be illegal. If there is no sign and/or no announcement, you aren't breaking the law or byelaws.

I'd contend that, under the current wording of the 'smoking' railway byelaw, vaping isn't illegal full stop.

Activities may be banned on station premises by the landlord (Network Rail) or the agents (the TOCs), as this is private property. But their is a big difference between something being 'banned' and something being illegal. I could ban yellow t-shirt wearers from entering my property. I'd have no recourse to law to enforce that ban though.

The railways and their employees like to think and like to impress on people that smoking and vaping on their premises is totally illegal. But it only applies in enclosed or substantially enclosed parts (Health Act 2006) or where a sign or (possibly) announcement forbids (Railway Byelaw 3).
 
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Which comes back to why would you want to eavesdrop the station radios on the station in the first place?

I've had a lot of entertainment over the years from Virgin at Crewe and Manrail at Piccadilly to my aerial here in Bolton, not that local eh?

For those who have no interest in listening in... don't tune into 453.550 nfm.
 

fsmr

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Rutland Railway museum often had a local radio club set up a mobile station set up in one of the guard vans in the early days on special events.

There is of course specific ban relating to within 100 KM of Charring X for 431.0-432.0 Mhz

M6 holder
 

HMS Ark Royal

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Rutland Railway museum often had a local radio club set up a mobile station set up in one of the guard vans in the early days on special events.

There is of course specific ban relating to within 100 KM of Charring X for 431.0-432.0 Mhz

M6 holder

Why?.
 

NSEFAN

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The MoD is the primary user of the 431-432MHz band. There's clearly something in Central London that they don't want interference with. With modern communications this may now be redundant, but it's still part of the amateur radio licence frequency schedule.
 

fsmr

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The MoD is the primary user of the 431-432MHz band. There's clearly something in Central London that they don't want interference with. With modern communications this may now be redundant, but it's still part of the amateur radio licence frequency schedule.

Lol,. I thought you might say "I can tell you but would have to kill you after"

Came up last April when I did my exam as expected
 

driver_m

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I've had a lot of entertainment over the years from Virgin at Crewe and Manrail at Piccadilly to my aerial here in Bolton, not that local eh?

For those who have no interest in listening in... don't tune into 453.550 nfm.

...and I'm sure our lot at Crewe are going to be very interested to know that someone has been snooping on them. No radio expert but I'd guess that frequency will now change thanks to you.
 

HMS Ark Royal

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...and I'm sure our lot at Crewe are going to be very interested to know that someone has been snooping on them. No radio expert but I'd guess that frequency will now change thanks to you.

Unless he was kidding
 

HMS Ark Royal

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It wouldn't surprise me if it was true.. I read this thread half expecting someone to say they listen to our GSM conversations and such and such a signalman doesn't do his comms properly.

Must be possible as there is a YT video of a conversation between driver and signaller about a gentlemen doing things on the line
 

MP33

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I hold a full Amateur radio licence and have some inside knowledge so I will try and answer a few questions and dispel a few urban myths.

The Amateur Radio licence does not permit use on public transport. There are no restrictions on use at Railway and Bus Stations, Ferry Terminals and so on. There is a restriction regarding Airports with a maximum height of antenna for health and safety reasons.

The only radio services that can be listened to without a licence or the licence holders permission, are authorised broadcasting stations and the Amateur service. The fact that anything listened in to is not recorded or passed on is irrelevant. Listening in is not permitted.

The frequency band 430-432MHz is not available within 100kms of Charing Cross due to part of it being allocated for Business systems.

The frequency quoted in use at a railway station is part of a small group allocated at a number of locations. At one time these were for National Rail only. Today there are a few Heritage railways and museums licensed.

Ofcom have a register that can be searched where details of all Business systems are viewable. The information for the CSR and NRN systems do not record the individual sites. All that is listed is that a frequency is allocated to Network Rail for use in particular geographical locations. For example England, Wales and Scotland.

It is very difficult if not impossible to listen into the GSM-R system.
 

HMS Ark Royal

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It is very difficult if not impossible to listen into the GSM-R system.

Well somebody caught a GSM message and posted it on youtube...

The Amateur Radio licence does not permit use on public transport. There are no restrictions on use at Railway and Bus Stations, Ferry Terminals and so on. There is a restriction regarding Airports with a maximum height of antenna for health and safety reasons.

The only radio services that can be listened to without a licence or the licence holders permission, are authorised broadcasting stations and the Amateur service. The fact that anything listened in to is not recorded or passed on is irrelevant. Listening in is not permitted.

Does ATIS and Meteo services count as advertised?
 

MP33

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I have just searched You Tube and there appear to be a number of official training videos uploaded which will show calls being made.

The other two services I believe are covered by licences issued by the CAA. I doubt that the CAA would issue a licence that is not associated to a aircraft or airport.
 

Minilad

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Must be possible as there is a YT video of a conversation between driver and signaller about a gentlemen doing things on the line

All NRN conversations between signallers and drivers are recorded. The YT video is just playing the recording.
I know the driver involved. He is a colleague of mine
 

Lockwood

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The Amateur Radio licence does not permit use on public transport. There are no restrictions on use at Railway and Bus Stations, Ferry Terminals and so on. There is a restriction regarding Airports with a maximum height of antenna for health and safety reasons.

So it does not permit use, nor does it forbid use.
 

PDG1949

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Although this thread started off asking about using amateur radio equipment on the railway, it appears to have split into two elements.

The first is the original one, the second involves the topic of earwigging on railway communications, which is a completely different issue and basically is not officially allowed under the Wireless Telegraphy Act.

Radio Amateurs are officially licensed by Ofcom following successful completion of graded examinations, depending on the licence level. As there seem to be some misconceptions as to where they are allowed to operate, here's a link to the section of the Ofcom website which gives the terms and conditions of the current amateur licence
http://licensing.ofcom.org.uk/binar...adio/guidance-for-licensees/amateur-terms.pdf
As you can see, aircraft are really the only place where operation is not possible.

As handportable amateur radio equipment with a short antenna looks more like a radio than a mobile phone, that's probably why it attracted the attention of security staff. Bear in mind also that these days as well as amateur radio gear, there are also the small licence-free short-range 500mW PMR446 walkie-talkies which anyone can buy and use and don't have any restrictions at all.

Anyone made any bread puddings........?

Paul Gaskell G4MWO
====================
 

PermitToTravel

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...and I'm sure our lot at Crewe are going to be very interested to know that someone has been snooping on them. No radio expert but I'd guess that frequency will now change thanks to you.

There's a public register of all allocated radio frequencies. It's trivially easy to find the frequency for almost every single handheld radio deployment and listen in.

Things that really mustn't be interfered with by outsiders (mobile phones, police radios, GSM-R, etc) are encrypted. Intercepting GSM-R is essentially completely impossible with the resources available to anyone short of GCHQ.
 

PDG1949

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Hi Llanigraham,

Yes, I think I spotted it in a recent RadCom but I don't know whether there's been any in-depth review yet. To tell the truth, I've just changed over to a Moto 3rd Generation from a Blackberry and it's currently a steep learning curve with the smartphone let alone using one as a radio as well, ha ha ! 'Spect in due course might also see these also with PMR446 available. Good luck on the course.
 

Llanigraham

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Hi Llanigraham,

Yes, I think I spotted it in a recent RadCom but I don't know whether there's been any in-depth review yet. To tell the truth, I've just changed over to a Moto 3rd Generation from a Blackberry and it's currently a steep learning curve with the smartphone let alone using one as a radio as well, ha ha ! 'Spect in due course might also see these also with PMR446 available. Good luck on the course.

I first saw it in RadCom as well; not sure how effective it will be.
Currently I'm looking for a cheap handheld to listen-in until I take the exam. Thinking about a Baofeng.
 

40907

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I bit of historical context for the topic title.

Back in the 1920's the LNER allowed an amateur radio station to be set up in a brake vehicle on a Kings Cross to Edinburgh train. The idea was to test out the practicality of sending and receiving transmissions from the moving train to fixed radio stations elsewhere. The equipment in those early days was bulky, hence the use of a brake vehicle.

When I can find my copy of "The World at their fingertips" by G6CL, I will fill in more detail.

40907
 

JohnB57

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The equipment in those early days was bulky, hence the use of a brake vehicle.
Not to mention the problem of rigging up an efficient aerial for the frequencies in use. Around top band I imagine?

This is one I need to read. Our local library service doesn't have it so I'll have to find an old copy.
 
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