Southport threatened to lose direct service to Man Picc & Airport

Greybeard33 · 12 Feb 2016

Neil Williams said:
TBH, given the shortage of DMUs at Northern and TPE and that EMUs are rather easier to come by, I'd chop all the Airport services that don't have to go there to reverse at Picc to save DMUs, and replace with a dedicated service.

Even with the additional through platforms post-Northern Hub, there will not be platform capacity at Piccadilly to reverse additional services from the west. And the west-facing bay at Oxford Road is being removed. So DMUs from the west are not being "wasted" when they continue to the Airport under the wires. They have to go somewhere to the south to reverse.

notlob.divad said:
How many extra DMUs is it taking to add the Airport to the end of the hourly Cleethorpes - Piccadilly service? My guess is 1 if any.

None. If the hourly Cleethorpes service were cut back to Piccadilly and one diagram removed, the turnround time at Piccadilly would be only 17 minutes - surely not enough recovery time for a long distance service? So the unit would just spend 77 minutes blocking a terminal platform at Piccadilly instead of running to the Airport and back. Anyway this is irrelevant to the Southport issue, because the Cleethorpes service does not take up a path through Ordsall Lane and Castlefield Junctions, which will become the real bottleneck post-Hub.

IMHO we are just seeing the compromises inherent in the Ordsall Chord/Northern Hub project - there is a limit to the number of services per hour that can be crammed through the mess of flat junctions on to the double track South Junction line through Deansgate station. To make room for all the services from Yorkshire round the Ordsall Chord, plus the new hourly service from Cumbria, presumably something has to give, and it looks like Southport has "drawn the short straw".

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Bletchleyite · 12 Feb 2016

Greybeard33 said:
None. If the hourly Cleethorpes service were cut back to Piccadilly and one diagram removed, the turnround time at Piccadilly would be only 17 minutes - surely not enough recovery time for a long distance service?

17 minutes is quite short, but what does it have at the other end? What does it have at the Airport?

pemma · 13 Feb 2016

trainophile said:
Given your location, I'm surprised you don't sympathise with those of us who need to be at Picc in order to connect for South Wales. Being dumped at Victoria is no use for us. I might be the only person travelling from Southport towards South Wales regularly, and if so I will just have to put up and shut up, but I bet I'm not!

Looks like I will be becoming more familiar with Wigan or Salford Crescent then . Wigan's okay actually, but SLD is pretty grim, especially in winter.

I thought there was someone who posts on here about making journeys from Southport to Hereford who's described going via Chester or Liverpool South Parkway.

In your case is the problem really the possible changes to Southport to Manchester services or the fact that Liverpool to Cardiff services no longer exist?

mullin · 13 Feb 2016

Neil Williams said:
I can't see in a million years why someone in West Lancashire[1] would travel to Euston or Birmingham via Manchester. Wigan or Liverpool are the sensible points to connect into London trains

Right here, I used to do it all the time when I lived there.
Far cheaper than boarding the 1 train an hour from Wigan. Advances for a few quid as opposed to generally over 40 quid out of Wigan.
Better chance of getting a seat
No having to walk across the road in Wigan when its raining

As far as I'm concerned an extra hour travelling is totally fine to offset the otherwise expensive fares.

Oh, and I've also done West Lancs - Man - Bhm - Eus as it was far cheaper!

Ianno87 · 13 Feb 2016

Neil Williams said:
17 minutes is quite short, but what does it have at the other end? What does it have at the Airport?

I'd say 17 minutes is fairly generous for a 3-car DMU to exchange passengers and the driver to walk all of 60-odd metres. Lots of other services at Manchester Airport work on way less than that today (e.g. Around 10-15 minutes for the Airport-Scotland and Airport-Blackpool services).

pemma · 13 Feb 2016

Ianno87 said:
I'd say 17 minutes is fairly generous for a 3-car DMU to exchange passengers and the driver to walk all of 60-odd metres. Lots of other services at Manchester Airport work on way less than that today (e.g. Around 10-15 minutes for the Airport-Scotland and Airport-Blackpool services).

Don't forget some South TPE services are currently 4 car 170s, the catering trolley gets loaded/unloaded at Piccadilly and there may be a crew change.

The current arrangement for South TPE is

Arrival at Piccadilly: xx:03
Departure from Piccadilly: xx:06 (2 minutes later in working timetable)
Arrival at Airport: xx:26 (2 minutes earlier in working timetable)
Departure from Airport: xx:45
Arrival at Piccadilly: xx:13
Departure from Piccadilly: xx:20

So the current turnaround time at the Airport is 21 minutes. Additionally it spends 5 minutes stopped at Piccadilly in the Airport direction and 7 minutes in the Cleethorpes direction.

The Scottish service has 16 minutes to turnaround in the working timetable (opposed to the 13 minutes in the public one), while the Blackpool service has 13 minutes to turnaround but obviously the Blackpool one is the shortest TPE service so is less likely to encounter a major delay.

The Hull service only has 11 minutes to turnaround and while most of the time it manages it, in the event of delays on North TPE the westbound service is usually terminated at Huddersfield.

trainophile · 13 Feb 2016

jcollins said:
I thought there was someone who posts on here about making journeys from Southport to Hereford who's described going via Chester or Liverpool South Parkway.

In your case is the problem really the possible changes to Southport to Manchester services or the fact that Liverpool to Cardiff services no longer exist?

Yep that's me. I've had phases of going via Chester and South Parkway, but Southport to Chester is something like 30 stops and became a real drag, and getting on the South Wales ATW at Crewe can be a scramble for a seat, especially when they put a 2-coacher on. Came to the conclusion that via Picc is the best way, despite the Pacers.

Greybeard33 · 13 Feb 2016

jcollins said:
Don't forget some South TPE services are currently 4 car 170s, the catering trolley gets loaded/unloaded at Piccadilly and there may be a crew change.

The current arrangement for South TPE is

Arrival at Piccadilly: xx:03
Departure from Piccadilly: xx:06 (2 minutes later in working timetable)
Arrival at Airport: xx:26 (2 minutes earlier in working timetable)
Departure from Airport: xx:45
Arrival at Piccadilly: xx:13
Departure from Piccadilly: xx:20

So the current turnaround time at the Airport is 21 minutes. Additionally it spends 5 minutes stopped at Piccadilly in the Airport direction and 7 minutes in the Cleethorpes direction.

The Scottish service has 16 minutes to turnaround in the working timetable (opposed to the 13 minutes in the public one), while the Blackpool service has 13 minutes to turnaround but obviously the Blackpool one is the shortest TPE service so is less likely to encounter a major delay.

The Hull service only has 11 minutes to turnaround and while most of the time it manages it, in the event of delays on North TPE the westbound service is usually terminated at Huddersfield.

In case of major delays on South TPE (not that unusual) the westbound service is turned back at Piccadilly and Airport passengers have to change.

Class 170101 · 13 Feb 2016

Rumours abound that perhaps a Mark III electric set may be used between Manchester and Scotland instead releasing Class 185s from this route.

Anyone know or heard anything?

johnnychips · 14 Feb 2016

I don't know what the discussion was about but the South TPEs depart the airport at xx55, not xx45. Often annoys passengers as staff have to clean train and put reservations out as doors often not opened till xx50, even though it's been there since about xx30.

Bletchleyite · 14 Feb 2016

johnnychips said:
I don't know what the discussion was about but the South TPEs depart the airport at xx55, not xx45. Often annoys passengers as they have to clean train and put reservations out as doors often not opened till xx50, even though it's been there since about xx30.

This seems to be a TPE thing. It isn't hard to do it quickly and get the train boarded. But at most place TPE like to take ages and board at the last minute.

It may be because it's the staff's PNB of course, but that just requires TPE to do some better planning.

What also isn't acceptable is staff sitting eating chips in the passenger saloon while the passengers wait outside in the freezing cold, PNB or no. It stinks the train out (but that this is accepted practice is yet another thing that highlights the contempt TPE on a corporate level hold their passengers in). Eat them in the cab or in the messroom.
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mullin said:
As far as I'm concerned an extra hour travelling is totally fine to offset the otherwise expensive fares.

That's fine; you can also accept a short walk across Manchester, a change at Salford Crescent or a £1.50 tram ride to get your cheap fares. A skewed fares system is not a reason to plan trains to allow what is a ludicrous roundabout route.

johnnychips · 14 Feb 2016

I actually find few problems with TPE South, and I use them a lot, but this airport thing annoys me. Why not announce, 'this train will not be ready for boarding till xx50.' so passengers can stay in the cafe rather than standing on the cold platform expecting the doors to open, or festering in the spartan waiting room on that platform?

pemma · 14 Feb 2016

johnnychips said:
I actually find few problems with TPE South, and I use them a lot, but this airport thing annoys me. Why not announce, 'this train will not be ready for boarding till xx50.' so passengers can stay in the cafe rather than standing on the cold platform expecting the doors to open, or festering in the spartan waiting room on that platform?

All TPE services are like that. At the terminus stations they want everyone off, then they want to go through and collect rubbish and put out seat reservation tickets, before allowing passengers for the return working to board.
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Neil Williams said:
That's fine; you can also accept a short walk across Manchester, a change at Salford Crescent or a £1.50 tram ride to get your cheap fares. A skewed fares system is not a reason to plan trains to allow what is a ludicrous roundabout route.

Note if a Metrolink tram doesn't show up or is delayed and you have an Advance rail ticket you will have to purchase a brand new full priced ticket if the delay/cancellation causes you miss your booked service. On top of that you won't be entitled to a refund on your advance or any compensation from Metrolink.

If you have a through Advance rail ticket and you miss your connection due to a rail delay, not only can you travel on a different service with your existing ticket, you may be entitled to compensation.

Bletchleyite · 14 Feb 2016

You are totally missing the point.

Lankyline · 17 Feb 2016

If only they hadn't closed Preston to Southport :rolleyes:

Xenophon PCDGS · 17 Feb 2016

Lankyline said:
If only they hadn't closed Preston to Southport

The route of the West Lancashire Railway would certainly add a considerable distance if it was still open to some of the journeys discussed so far, even allowing for the through running via those connectional junctions south of Preston to the other lines.

furnessvale · 19 Feb 2016

Lankyline said:
If only they hadn't closed Preston to Southport

The only route with half a chance, and even then I wouldn't hold my breath, is reinstatement of the Burscough curves.

Preston-Ormskirk services diverted to Southport with a connection at Burscough to extended electrics from Ormskirk down the other curve.

Two possible variations:-

Extend electrics even further to Southport,

and/or curtail new Preston-Southport service at Burscough making all change for Southport.

Bletchleyite · 19 Feb 2016

The most sensible answer to me is to reinstate both Curves, extend Merseyrail to Burscough Bridge via Burscough Junction (would require 2 units for a half hourly service, one would have a long layover at Ormskirk in a new reversing siding; I worked out a timetable for it ages ago), and run an hourly Preston-Burscough Bridge service with a single unit. It would be necessary to rebuild Burscough Bridge station with a long bay (6x20m) on the south side and a small one (2x23m, or perhaps 3x23m for future proofing) on the north side, this could be done within the existing car park.

That said, I understand, to my great surprise, that Arriva Northern are going to put a second unit back on Ormskirk-Preston, so it will be going hourly anyway (as it was in the 1990s). But the cost saved by it being one would be significant.

SeanG · 19 Feb 2016

Neil Williams said:
The most sensible answer to me is to reinstate both Curves, extend Merseyrail to Burscough Bridge via Burscough Junction (would require 2 units for a half hourly service, one would have a long layover at Ormskirk in a new reversing siding; I worked out a timetable for it ages ago), and run an hourly Preston-Burscough Bridge service with a single unit. It would be necessary to rebuild Burscough Bridge station with a long bay (6x20m) on the south side and a small one (2x23m, or perhaps 3x23m for future proofing) on the north side, this could be done within the existing car park.

That said, I understand, to my great surprise, that Arriva Northern are going to put a second unit back on Ormskirk-Preston, so it will be going hourly anyway (as it was in the 1990s). But the cost saved by it being one would be significant.

The most sensible, and easiest solution surely would be to electrify Ormskirk - Preston and run through trains to Liverpool

Bletchleyite · 19 Feb 2016

SeanG said:
The most sensible, and easiest solution surely would be to electrify Ormskirk - Preston and run through trains to Liverpool

Are you from the local area (I grew up there)? That would indeed be easiest, but all it would do is add a few extra through journeys from the Merseyrail Northern Line to Preston (there is already a through service from Liverpool to Preston via Wigan, and unless you start pratting about with the stopping pattern a service via Ormskirk isn't going to be much if at all quicker). The service pattern that would both save money on the branch and provide proper rail connectivity for West Lancashire is my proposal.

There is a large untapped demand for Ormskirk to Southport, for instance, much of which ends up in cars because the rail option is a tortuous detour via Sandhills.

Lankyline · 19 Feb 2016

Despite OPSTA's efforts the ongoing saga of reinstatement of the Burscough curves is only half the problem, the lack of passing loops on the single track from Ormskirk to Preston is the other major issue. It's starting to look like another SELRAP ie good intentions but getting nowhere fast.

Loop Line · 19 Feb 2016

A Liverpool-Preston service via Ormskirk would better serve those living along the line wouldn't it? Already having the route via Wigan would be less handy to someone living in say, Aughton or Croston who would need t go south before going north.

On another note, what is the Windsor link?

Bletchleyite · 19 Feb 2016

Lankyline said:
Despite OPSTA's efforts the ongoing saga of reinstatement of the Burscough curves is only half the problem, the lack of passing loops on the single track from Ormskirk to Preston is the other major issue. It's starting to look like another SELRAP ie good intentions but getting nowhere fast.

You what? There is a passing loop at Rufford. Indeed, while it might for 20 or so years have made sense to remove it and do away with pointless token and train staff exchanges, with Arriva's plan to go back to hourly it will once again see regular use.
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Loop Line said:
A Liverpool-Preston service via Ormskirk would better serve those living along the line wouldn't it? Already having the route via Wigan would be less handy to someone living in say, Aughton or Croston who would need t go south before going north.

Croston would not lose its direct service to Preston. Those from Maghull northwards would have to change at Burscough, but that's no great problem if it is a well-integrated change. (The ideal would be to rebuild Burscough Bridge as a big island with two bays.
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Loop Line said:
On another note, what is the Windsor link?

The line connecting Salford Crescent to the viaduct to Deansgate:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windsor_Link_Line,_Greater_Manchester

Prior to its construction, trains via Bolton, Atherton and Eccles could only reach Victoria, not Piccadilly.

Loop Line · 19 Feb 2016

Thanks. Pity not to have the airport service. I use it to get home from deployments with a stop in Southport for a shave and cut followed by swimming.

mwmbwls · 20 Feb 2016

Lankyline said:
Despite OPSTA's efforts the ongoing saga of reinstatement of the Burscough curves is only half the problem, the lack of passing loops on the single track from Ormskirk to Preston is the other major issue. It's starting to look like another SELRAP ie good intentions but getting nowhere fast.

http://www.lancashirelep.co.uk/news/archive/transport-strategy.aspx
http://www.lancashirelep.co.uk/media/26203/4412-lancs-strat-transport_web.pdf
The Lancashire LEP has recently published a transport strategy document envisaging the revival of direct trains from Preston to Liverpool via Ormskirk by 2029.

Merseyrail currently operates a fast and frequent service between Liverpool and Ormskirk using electric trains.
However, onward travel to Preston requires a change of train to a diesel-operated service that is infrequent and run to an irregular timetable.
Rolling stock quality is also poor.
Electrification of the Ormskirk to Preston route with appropriate infrastructure enhancements would resolve the majority of issues, significantly improving connectivity between Preston, West Lancashire and the Liverpool City Region.
In addition, there is the potential to provide better interchange between Liverpool-Ormskirk-Preston and Manchester-Wigan-Southport services at Burscough. (Direct links from Southport to Preston and East Lancashire could also be possible).
Both are aspirations in the Liverpool City Region Long Term Rail Strategy published in August 2014

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Darren R said:
Well, call me cynical, but.... there is only one source of information in the newspaper article: the local MP. Nothing from Arriva, or Network Rail, or the DfT, or indeed anyone other than the egregious John Pugh. Which kind of leads me to one question: do we know if it is true?

But even if it is true, it's hardly the end of the world. So some passengers will have to get off the train at Salford Crescent and stand on the same platform for a few minutes. I don't understand this obsession with direct trains to Manchester Airport - there are plenty of towns on the Northern network that don't have trains to the airport, including ones that are bigger than Southport.

It makes me wonder if local elections are imminent....

John Pugh was advised of the change at a meeting with local MP's hosted by Liam Robinson of Merseytravel who was then (allegedly) surprised by the grapeshot that swept his foredeck.

Recent passenger survey work by OPSTA confirmed that more passengers from west of Wigan travel to Piccadilly than Victoria and that the inbound peaks on the line are short but sharp.The key issue is, as has been suggested, access to Oxford Road and Piccadilly - the vast majority of passengers walk to and from the station at both ends. The bulk of (business) air travellers from Southport and West Lancashire use the motorway to access Manchester Airport because of the need to check in early for morning flights to Europe - one of the consequences of the 1 hour time difference.

Numbers from Wigan have reflected significant abstraction of Wigan passengers from the Wallgate trains to the fast TPE services to/from Manchester - (to the extent that that 17.XX hours Scottish TPE first stops at Preston to avoid Wigan passengers clogging up the service). These passengers return, therefore, via Atherton/Bolton during the evening peak.

Those suggesting that Salford Crescent is/would be a viable connecting point may not have experienced the routine denial of access to crowded trains from both Victoria and Piccadilly coinciding with throwing out time at Salford University. (The number of people with bikes who board there at that time does not help either.)

The three train per hour London service provided by Virgin is significant draw to passengers - there is significant off peak capacity which is sold on an heavily discounted basis to the cost conscious customer - some of whom use their Greater Manchester codger bus passes to travel free to Piccadilly from as far out as Appley Bridge.

At the moment mixed messages are circulating as to whether all Southport trains will run via Atherton.

L+Y · 24 Feb 2016

Neil Williams said:
The most sensible answer to me is to reinstate both Curves, extend Merseyrail to Burscough Bridge via Burscough Junction (would require 2 units for a half hourly service, one would have a long layover at Ormskirk in a new reversing siding; I worked out a timetable for it ages ago), and run an hourly Preston-Burscough Bridge service with a single unit. It would be necessary to rebuild Burscough Bridge station with a long bay (6x20m) on the south side and a small one (2x23m, or perhaps 3x23m for future proofing) on the north side, this could be done within the existing car park.

That said, I understand, to my great surprise, that Arriva Northern are going to put a second unit back on Ormskirk-Preston, so it will be going hourly anyway (as it was in the 1990s). But the cost saved by it being one would be significant.

I've heard you mention this before, and I'm still not sure how the proposal would work: I presume you'd run double track through the bridge as now, and then completely demolish BCB station and rebuild slightly to the west?

Bletchleyite · 24 Feb 2016

L+Y said:
I've heard you mention this before, and I'm still not sure how the proposal would work: I presume you'd run double track through the bridge as now, and then completely demolish BCB station and rebuild slightly to the west?

That would be one good option, there are a few ways it could work.

notlob.divad · 24 Feb 2016

I think all of the West Lancashire services will get a good review once the two city regions find their feet. I am not sure if Preston is trying to get a Central Lancashire Region as well with Blackburn Burnley and Blackpool, it would make some sense.

Manchester Public Transport has already looked at extending MetroLink to Wigan Wallgate, I wouldn't be surprised if there is some agreement that between the Regions that communter services West of the WCML become an expanded Merseytravel whilst commuter services East of the WCML become Metrolink. West Lancs would then be tied into the LCR.

Where that leaves Southport to Manchester commuters I don't know. I suspect there will be a lot of unhappy people trudging down the platform between trains and trams at Wigan Walgate.

Bletchleyite · 24 Feb 2016

To me, the logical Metrolink extension would be the Atherton line, which would result in the Southport trains being sent via Bolton instead. I would not expect them to be truncated at Wigan.

The "city regions" are just too small for train services to stop at their boundaries.

notlob.divad · 24 Feb 2016

Neil Williams said:
To me, the logical Metrolink extension would be the Atherton line, which would result in the Southport trains being sent via Bolton instead. I would not expect them to be truncated at Wigan.

Quite possible, if they can accept shared running between trains and metrolink Wigan to Hindley Junction. But GMTE where also looking at Metrolink to Bolton as a possibility.

Neil Williams said:
The "city regions" are just too small for train services to stop at their boundaries.

I totally agree with you on this point, but they are being put in charge of transport for the regions, and will want to be seen to have some impact whilst at the same time they won't want the other city region having control over transport under their remit. The only way they won't get bogged down in bureaucratic nonsense is to have clear splits where their jurisdiction ends.

Southport threatened to lose direct service to Man Picc & Airport

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