Stuck Behind Late Running Trains

najaB said:

I stand to be corrected, but I'm pretty sure that the reason it's classed as a goods loop is because it doesn't have facing point locks, and so can't be used for passenger trains in service.

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Not necessarily a lack of facing point locks, but that's the principle - there are other factors too, such as short or no overlaps, trap points beyond the outlet signal, no trap points on any sidings. In the Stourbridge example above (if it was a goods loop - I don't know), there'd have been special arrangements to allow a passenger train to use a goods loop - all covered in the Rules and Regs. To answer the question, though, if there was a passenger loop available (or a goods loop if the slower train was non-passenger) then it would certainly be an option for regulating.

I've been there many a time, and feel your pain, I've also been on the ones holding you up as well, and its...

One train that we run of note is the Victoria to Southampton via Horsham and Barnham. If your a bit late, when you get to Ford junction you glance out the window. Option A: The Littlehampton to Portsmouth stopper is waiting, its yeahhhh. Option B, its gone.... your doomed, slow, slow slow, punters for Fishbourne etc, missed connection, next train, an hour. punters connection onto the GWR train to Bath and Cardiff via Westbury, missed, (heading to Devon or Cornwall, you could now be hours late), chances of making it to Southampton, poor.

Meanwhile your working the LIT to PMS and the VIC to SOU train is late, as your at Fishbourne, Nutbourne etc (and mainly on Red so no fast getaway), all you can see when you look back is the headlights of the train knowing that option B is happening there and then, and that's all the way to Farlington junction.

JoeGJ1984 said:

I remember the Farewell 150 tour being routed through a loop near Stourbridge Junction (don't know if it's a goods loop though or wheter it has facing point locks).

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"Special dispensation" can be given.

sarahj said:

I've been there many a time, and feel your pain, I've also been on the ones holding you up as well, and its...

One train that we run of note is the Victoria to Southampton via Horsham and Barnham. If your a bit late, when you get to Ford junction you glance out the window. Option A: The Littlehampton to Portsmouth stopper is waiting, its yeahhhh. Option B, its gone.... your doomed, slow, slow slow, punters for Fishbourne etc, missed connection, next train, an hour. punters connection onto the GWR train to Bath and Cardiff via Westbury, missed, (heading to Devon or Cornwall, you could now be hours late), chances of making it to Southampton, poor.

Meanwhile your working the LIT to PMS and the VIC to SOU train is late, as your at Fishbourne, Nutbourne etc (and mainly on Red so no fast getaway), all you can see when you look back is the headlights of the train knowing that option B is happening there and then, and that's all the way to Farlington junction.

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And be a bit late at Havant and the Portsmouth - Southampton stopper gets put ahead at Cosham junction expect to be turned at Fareham

Kite159 said:

And be a bit late at Havant and the Portsmouth - Southampton stopper gets put ahead at Cosham junction expect to be turned at Fareham

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That was the 'chances to make it to Southampton, poor' part.

QueensCurve said:

Surprising that consideration matters to today's railway.

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It does to those who have to suffer passengers' abuse when the connections are not maintained, particularly late on a Saturday night.

TDK said:

Not on our patch they won't I sat at BNS for 9 minutes the other day to wait on a late running XC service to arrive and depart and I was initially on time, the signalers will regulate what ever is the more cost effective train to route first.

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What were you and a cross country train doing at Barnes?

JoeGJ1984 said:

In a situation where a fast train gets stuck behind a slow train, would a signaller ever put the slow train in a goods loop if he happens to have one handy to allow the faster train to pass?

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Very unlikely, as lots don't have the correct fittings, like FPL's.
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bb21 said:

"Special dispensation" can be given.

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Or you get the MOM out to scotch and clamp the points.
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Tomnick said:

Not necessarily a lack of facing point locks, but that's the principle - there are other factors too, such as short or no overlaps, trap points beyond the outlet signal, no trap points on any sidings. In the Stourbridge example above (if it was a goods loop - I don't know), there'd have been special arrangements to allow a passenger train to use a goods loop - all covered in the Rules and Regs. To answer the question, though, if there was a passenger loop available (or a goods loop if the slower train was non-passenger) then it would certainly be an option for regulating.

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Correct.

sprinterguy said:

Had an interesting situation recently where my late running Crosscountry HST was routed on the slow line from Birtley to the King Edward Bridge (Newcastle) via the slow line (bi-directional past Tyne Yard) to allow the following "via Doncaster" Crosscountry and an EC service to overtake and remain relatively on time: Absolutely the right decision to take IMO, but the first time I believe that I'd ever travelled via that slow line, though I've seen it used occasionally before.

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If 1E01 Flying Scotsman is running a few minutes late, 1F63 07:08 NCL-LIV gets looped into here to let the scotsman pass. Trouble is this costs a 10 min delay to 1F63 and missed connections at York as a result (its a popular train as its the earliest off peak route into london changing onto the GC at York) with no noticable gain to 1E01. Far better in my experience to at least let 1F63 get into Darlington and use the fast lines there to allow 1E01 to overtake, thereby minimising the delay to 1F63. 1Y14 which normally waits at Darlington for 1E01 will have reached York long before 1E01 catches that up.

455driver said:

What were you and a cross country train doing at Barnes?

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Sorry. That was me. I fancied a day out

Minilad said:

Sorry. That was me. I fancied a day out

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So it was you who caused havoc at Barnes the other day?

carriageline said:

Sounds like a very **** poor reg decision on that info alone. If there was places to reg at Birmingham International then booked order and decide there. Do you know how late the XC was by any chance?

That isn't really saving them money either, as they now have to pay your TOC for them 15 minutes and subsequently, any trains you delayed in that mean time. And I doubt they shaved 15 minutes off the XC!

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27 minutes late
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455driver said:

What were you and a cross country train doing at Barnes?

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It's a Northern thing 455

I'm not having a go at the signalling staff here, as generally speaking they do a very good job. However, at times there are some very strange regulating decisions that do happen (not very often though).

Sheffield PSB is the worst IMO. I've been on late running TPE services to Manchester several times, and seen the stopper leave ahead of us 3 times. The first time, it was looped at Heeley for us to pass (fair enough). The second time, it was held on the departure road for us to pass (again, fair enough). The 3rd time however .....

As we was about 10 minutes late at Sheffield, the stopper was signalled onto the Hope Valley. Once clear of Dore, a freight was then routed behind it from Chesterfield. We was then routed behind the freight. At Chinley, where both trains buggered off, we was approx 1 hour late, with the EMT service close behind, with the following TPE service right behind that!

From a simple 10 minute delay that would have been fairly easy to work round using the loop at Heeley, instead you have 1 service arriving just over an hour late at Piccadilly, where it's terminated instead of carrying on to the Airport, the EMT service was 35-40 minutes late, and the following TPE service was approx 15 minutes late, and again terminated at Piccadilly.

Passenger trains aren't usually allowed in 'goods loops' but a number of loops are actually designated as passenger loops so you can be held in there. It happens fairly regularly at Yatton in both directions, the loops at Pilning are also designated passenger loops although I've never been through in either direction.