Southeastern/Thameslink passengers least satisfied in UK

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35599189

Rail passengers in the south east of England are the least satisfied in the UK, according to a survey.
Southeastern was the joint worst performing operator alongside Thameslink & Great Northern, with an overall satisfaction score of just 46%.
Overcrowding, poor value for money and dirty trains were among issues raised by the poll of 6,986 travellers, the survey by consumer group Which? showed.
Grand Central, which operates on the East Coast Main Line, was top with 79%.
It achieved five stars for availability of seating, punctuality, cleanliness of trains, reliability and value for money.
Hull Trains was second with a customer score of 73%.
'£70m investment'
Faring just better than the worst performers was Abellio Greater Anglia, with a 47% score, followed by Southern (48%) and Arriva Trains Wales (49%).
Which? also found a third of commuters polled experienced delays on their most recent journey, with the worst commuter services for delays operated by Arriva Trains Wales, Thameslink and Great Northern, First Great Western/Great Western Trains and Southern.

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As a Great Northern user I am disappointed with the cancellations due to lack of train crew. They are not running any additional services that would mean they need more drivers, so I can only assume they are losing drivers due to lack of esprit de corp, or cuts in benefits.

But I also find the lack of communication frustrating, you can be stood on the platform waiting with no announcements that the train is delayed. If you look on the App you can see the delay, so is it really too much trouble for someone at the station to make an announcement.

But what really annoys me is that they hired a PR team to go on TV and Spin everything to be someone else's fault.

I am sick to the teeth of the media and politicians jumping on the bash the TOCs bandwagon.

In this particular case I would question how Which carried out their research. Did they approach train travellers or did they ask travellers to contact them. If the latter I would expect those who are disgruntled to contact them and therefore for their survey to automatically give a bad impression.

Irrespective of this though the reality is train services are not going to improve without a huge investment, and who is going to pay for it, and how will it be done without creating disruption itself?

I travel on Southern and needless to say they don't do everything right but I cant say the service it awful, it certainly has been worse in the past.

There are big complaints about driver shortages, however they are training lots of them but it takes time to do so. It does beg the question where they go and I am told other TOCs pay more. Dare I suggest that other TOCs can afford to pay more as they are not running training programmes. I dont know how much it costs to train a driver but it has to be a significant amount and if you are paying those costs it follows you cant pay drivers as much. Do Southern require drivers to say for a certain period after their training?

Whilst services might regularly be delayed a lot of this is down to the network being so busy, and once you get a delay they just knock on and on as there is so little slack built in to allow service recovery.

Now I know that Southern have their issues, their customer communication is just awful. The Twitter team do their best but are no longer allowed to tweet the info customers want, the email team just respond with total garbage, and when it all goes totally pear shaped and a line is blocked then everyone seems to run round like headless chickens and its everyone for themselves. Some decent plans for these occasions would be good.

But the actual reality is that without an ability to significantly increase capacity on the network nothing is going to change in the south east irrespective of who is running the service.

Even if you can't solve the big stuff, perhaps if even the little things were done.

The GN train I am on at 7am is filthy and has not seen a vacuum cleaner in days. How does that happen. It doesn't take a year to train a cleaner.

Yesterday's fiasco at Peterborough, communication was woeful and gave the impression that either nobody knew what was going on or nobody actually cared.

No great surprise really, I use Southeastern quite a bit and in fairness some days it all runs fairly smoothly but when it goes wrong it really goes wrong. The nature of the network means one late running train delays another and a problem quickly snowballs.

I always have problems with these surveys, yes things aren't great, but the on platform national satisfaction surveys I've only ever seen being completed off peak and normally by older people, who as the other members of staff on here will doubtless agree can be some of the most vicious complainers out there. I always take these with a shovelful of salt.

b127222 said:

The GN train I am on at 7am is filthy and has not seen a vacuum cleaner in days. How does that happen. It doesn't take a year to train a cleaner.

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It's amazing how good VTWC and LM are at keeping things clean despite passengers who like making pigs of themselves. The good performance by these TOCs demonstrates that others have no excuse.

b127222 said:

The GN train I am on at 7am is filthy and has not seen a vacuum cleaner in days. How does that happen. It doesn't take a year to train a cleaner.

.

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If that train has been out since 0400 then how clean can it get?

Not sure about GN's cleaning programme but unless its the same train every day then you may be getting the ones that are nearing the end of the deep clean cycle each day.

LO manage to keep their trains clean

robert7111a said:

LO manage to keep their trains clean

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They do but they also have money thrown at them by TfL to do so and also have vinyl floors which are much easier to hose down/Sweep up.

Clip said:

If that train has been out since 0400 then how clean can it get?

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Sufficiently clean from the previous evening's sweep and vacuum? Once every 2 days is inadequate.

FWIW, the only LM train I'd expect to be mucky is the 0134 off Euston which forms the 03something southbound off MKC and doesn't "go to bed". Every other LM train goes to sidings/depot where it can be cleaned.

I can see why the survey gives the results that it does, however there are issues with it.

Great Northern/Southern is undergoing a massive fleet renewal at the current time - the Class 700s and Class 707s about to replace their oldest and shabbiest stock. Certainly once they're implemented the satisfaction should begin to rise in terms of onboard envionment, and reliability hopefully. The franchise is currently being hit with major improvement works at London Bridge that are frequently causing disruption. Passengers as a result are dissatisfied with the services being disrupted, and thus the TOC gets it in the neck for the issues.

Granted though that onboard cleaniness is something that can be resolved by the TOC. The ones I used the other day though were perfectly clean. Although a new train wash could be invested in - the roofs of the 377/5s are black, and the 387s are accumulating dirt!

In regards to the survey itself, firstly it doesn't differentiate between commuters and off peak/leisure travellers - I am fairly confident there could be a stark difference in satifaction considering the fairly high value commuters put on punctuality and avaliability of seating (partly resulting from the season ticket prices, particularly in the south east).

Also only 7000 people were surveyed - considering the level of people who use the railways can this be accepted as truly accurate? There could be an issue that those who choose to do the survey are those who are inclined to moan, and thus the results reflects this.

I've never commuted on any of the Kent lines, however I have done so on the Snow Hill lines - rather interestingly complimented on the BBC page today as being ontime the majority of the time and overcrowding not usually an issue. Certainly I agree with this - when I did so it was busy, but most got seats and it's a pleasant experience. LM keep the 172s clean (one nice example is that a dedicated, hard working cleaner cleans the train between Dorridge and Widney Manor during the day) and well maintained - the only area they could improve on is communication when there is a problem - can be mixed at times.

I think really the core problem underlying the satisfaction figures is the sheer numbers who commute in the south east has just put too much of a strain on an ageing and complex infrastructure - it only takes one problem for the system to snowball now. That's down to investment levels, and infrasturucture planning. However there's no easy solution considering the high population density on the inner main lines into London. The dream scenario would be a few new additional lines along the core corridors alleviating pressure on the current lines - however as we know that's expensive, immensely complicated, and no quick fix.

Chrisgr31 said:

I am sick to the teeth of the media and politicians jumping on the bash the TOCs bandwagon.

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Why is any criticism of a TOC always labelled as a "bashing bandwagon" on here?

Which's survey will always show worse results than the NRPS. The NRPS- funded by ATOC, don't forget- only asks about your most recent journey. Funnily enough one only ever sees the NRPS people out on the quiet off-peak journeys, which are more likely to be satisfactory given the fares are cheaper and the timetable is more robust. I'm sure the NRPS aren't deliberately avoiding commuters on the busiest trains, who are less likely to be satisfied...

I'm sure the Which methodology will have issues too, but with a focus on commuters paying the top dollar then it is probably more realistic.

The quality of service provided by franchises in the south east- especially the GoVia ones- bears no resemblance to the prices charged for tickets. Season tickets in the south east are as expensive as family cars, yet the basics like communication are an afterthought, unless you consider being patronised by a faceless Twitter bot the same as "communication". London Midland's Twitter feed is just a series of sarcastic responses about why everything is always somebody else's fault; TSGN's is even worse.

Some parts of it can't be changed- capacity being the big one- but generally there's an acceptance that peak trains will be very full.

My annoyance (yes, I know I go on about it) with London Midland wasn't the space on the train- that's not their fault, at least in the peak- but with everything else: the fact the stations are shut up by 7pm, the fact the staff do a disappearing act every time there's disruption, the fact that commuters at smaller stations are shafted every time there's disruption, the fact that late evening trains are always four carriages and overcrowded, the fact that on late evening trains guards unlock the train 30 seconds before the scheduled departure time.

SE don't have it easy but it's galling to see them always trot out the refurbishment line and give the impression all trains are being done. Only a third are seeing real refurbishment - the long distance stock.

Networkers need it badly - 25 years old and counting. Even the 376s are looking really tatty now.

Anyway, they badly need additional trains to cope with overcrowding but that's not their fault. To not specify/procure extra before London Bridge alterations begun was madness, and that's a failing going back 5+ years.

Northern don't know much about cleanliness. Their passengers know even less.

Many passengers in Northern-land are filthy peasants!

Nothing we didn't know already, but still not what Southeastern and GTR were hoping to here. Grand Central came top with 79%, with Hull Trains (73%) second.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35599189

Rail passengers in the south east of England are the least satisfied in the UK, according to a survey.
Southeastern was the joint worst performing operator alongside Thameslink & Great Northern, with an overall satisfaction score of just 46%.

Overcrowding, poor value for money and dirty trains were among issues raised by the poll of 6,986 travellers, the survey by consumer group Which? showed.
Grand Central, which operates on the East Coast Main Line, was top with 79%.
Live: Reaction to rail survey results
It achieved five stars for availability of seating, punctuality, cleanliness of trains, reliability and value for money.
Hull Trains was second with a customer score of 73%.

'£70m investment'
Faring just better than the worst performers was Abellio Greater Anglia, with a 47% score, followed by Southern (48%) and Arriva Trains Wales (49%).
Which? also found a third of commuters polled experienced delays on their most recent journey, with the worst commuter services for delays operated by Arriva Trains Wales, Thameslink and Great Northern, First Great Western/Great Western Trains and Southern.

Long-running improvement work at London Bridge has contributed to disruption in the South East
Which? executive director Richard Lloyd said: "Our report shows that commuters are getting a raw deal from their train operator... it is clear operators need to up their game."
Long-running improvement work at London Bridge station has contributed to disruption in the South East, rail firms said.
A Southeastern spokesman said: "We're part way through a £70m investment programme, refurbishing our trains and stations, providing more frontline employees for passengers, improving customer service training and providing more real time information during journeys."
He added the operator was "working hard to improve punctuality and minimise delay".
A statement from Govia Thameslink Railway, which runs Thameslink & Great Northern, as well as Southern and Gatwick Express routes, said: "We know that passenger satisfaction is strongly linked to punctuality and together with our partners Network Rail, we are working hard to improve performance by reducing the delays within our control."

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*awaits Twitter mention of 'bring back FCC'/'nationalisation was better'*

I wonder if it's related in any way to the London Bridge rebuild...

Possibly. I'd quite like all these passengers to commute from Morley to Leeds.

traji00 said:

*awaits Twitter mention of 'bring back FCC'/'nationalisation was better'*

I wonder if it's related in any way to the London Bridge rebuild...

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These two were at the bottom or very close before it started. It's just made things worse.

But London Bridge has been known about for years. So the DfT have a lot of questions to answer as to why no additional stock was procured for Southeastern in the years leading up to it beginning. They knew paths would be cut and more people squeezed into remaining trains - yet those remaining trains are almost entirely still not 12 carriages. 95% are not utilising maximum platform lengths. So now we have people trying to squeeze onto trains, holding them up and people cannot board, and even those 1 or 2 minutes delays cascade.

And not only did they know paths would be reduced but mass housebuilding would occur along SE lines which would boost passengers significantly. For example, everyone knew Lewisham would see numerous towers the past 3 years, except the DfT it seems.

They thought they could let the franchise 'on the cheap' and get away with inadequate rolling stock provision until late 2017/2018. No chance.

I'm not satisfied.
It's bad value for money in every regard.
Bad reliabillity. (Late and cancelled trains etc)
Bad prices. (Fares and trolley food etc)
Bad customer service. (Passengers being treated like criminals for not understand confusing dis-infomation etc)
Bad service levels. (Parly trains etc)
Bad ticketing system. (Unfair due to advance and split tickets etc)
Bad trains. (153s, old tube trains, 150s, Voyagers etc)
Bad stations. (Many are overgrown decaying platforms with no info etc).
Bad connections. (Trains don't time well at many places or connect with buses) etc)
What's good value??
I only use the rip-off train when no alternative is available.

Arctic Troll said:

Why is any criticism of a TOC always labelled as a "bashing bandwagon" on here?

Which's survey will always show worse results than the NRPS. The NRPS- funded by ATOC, don't forget- only asks about your most recent journey. Funnily enough one only ever sees the NRPS people out on the quiet off-peak journeys

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Not true. I've signed in a number of NRPS survey staff for peak periods.

GrimsbyPacer said:

I'm not satisfied.
It's bad value for money in every regard.
Bad reliabillity. (Late and cancelled trains etc)
Bad prices. (Fares and trolley food etc)
Bad customer service. (Passengers being treated like criminals for not understand confusing dis-infomation etc)
Bad service levels. (Parly trains etc)
Bad ticketing system. (Unfair due to advance and split tickets etc)
Bad trains. (153s, old tube trains, 150s, Voyagers etc)
Bad stations. (Many are overgrown decaying platforms with no info etc).
Bad connections. (Trains don't time well at many places or connect with buses) etc)
What's good value??
I only use the rip-off train when no alternative is available.

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So, you're not happy, is that it?

Quite surprised you're a regular on a rail forum if these are your views.

GrimsbyPacer said:

I'm not satisfied.
It's bad value for money in every regard.
Bad reliabillity. (Late and cancelled trains etc)
Bad prices. (Fares and trolley food etc)
Bad customer service. (Passengers being treated like criminals for not understand confusing dis-infomation etc)
Bad service levels. (Parly trains etc)
Bad ticketing system. (Unfair due to advance and split tickets etc)
Bad trains. (153s, old tube trains, 150s, Voyagers etc)
Bad stations. (Many are overgrown decaying platforms with no info etc).
Bad connections. (Trains don't time well at many places or connect with buses) etc)
What's good value??
I only use the rip-off train when no alternative is available.

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But apart from that............all ok?

anti-pacer said:

Northern don't know much about cleanliness. Their passengers know even less.

Many passengers in Northern-land are filthy peasants!

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They're not much better in Southern land:cry:

Antman said:

They're not much better in Southern land:cry:

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I have yet to travel on a train down there that is littered with passenger's rubbish. I think they have better turnaround and on train cleaning than Northern do.

anti-pacer said:

I have yet to travel on a train down there that is littered with passenger's rubbish. I think they have better turnaround and on train cleaning than Northern do.

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Never been on Southeastern metro?

traji00 said:

*awaits Twitter mention of 'bring back FCC'/'nationalisation was better'*

I wonder if it's related in any way to the London Bridge rebuild...

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Not all of it, it has not helped but cannot answer for all the staff shortages recently for example or why Southern/Gatwick Express right time is as low as 25% for all trains on some days.

ScotGG said:

Never been on Southeastern metro?

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Woolwich Arsenal to London Bridge. Was clean.

Clip said:

They do but they also have money thrown at them by TfL to do so and also have vinyl floors which are much easier to hose down/Sweep up.

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There's also a lot less fixtures to clean, and a lot less crevices in which filth and rubbish can accumulate. You could probably just tell a cleaner to run down the train with a wide broom.

http://www.hertsad.co.uk/news/thame...the_uk_for_a_second_time_in_a_month_1_4423569

A frequent local paper headline in St Albans ......