New TPE Train Discussion

LNW-GW Joint · 4 Mar 2016

sprinterguy said:
interesting; if this be so, I wonder what rolling stock will actually be available during the (short) timescales involved? Outside of the 442s, I didn't think that there'd be much hauled-stock going spare before 2018.

There ought to be plenty of spare class 387s (new or not much used) coming free soon.
Intended for GWR Thames Valley services, but idle because of wiring delays.
Presumably they could be hauled by class 68s if need be.
And all within First's control.
They could even run under their own power York-Newcastle.

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Clarence Yard · 4 Mar 2016

Pretendalino is the word on the tracks, converted into 2 sets and 68 top n tailed.

Solent&Wessex · 4 Mar 2016

Clarence Yard said:
Pretendalino is the word on the tracks, converted into 2 sets and 68 top n tailed.

What is the make up of the Pretendolino set?

Xenophon PCDGS · 4 Mar 2016

jcollins said:
Well it's rumoured the person at DfT who's responsible for IEP wanted loco-hauled 442s on North TPE but he didn't get his way.

I wonder if that DfT person inhabits this website under a suitably obtuse username as I am sure that there are some on here who have proposed that very same thing in the past in their thread postings.

LNW-GW Joint · 4 Mar 2016

Clarence Yard said:
Pretendalino is the word on the tracks, converted into 2 sets and 68 top n tailed.

That might be a stopgap for the departure of the 170s, but does not solve the December 2017 problem which will need considerably more than 2 sets.

Bletchleyite · 4 Mar 2016

kwvr45 said:
What is the make up of the Pretendolino set?

According to Wikilies, 5 standard open, 1 buffet/first, 3 first open.

Greybeard33 · 4 Mar 2016

Remember that the Franchise Agreement calls for capacity increases from Dec 2017 as well as the additional Newcastle service: morning peak seats increased by 20% into Leeds, 35% into Manchester, 46% into Liverpool, 91% into Sheffield and 103% into Newcastle. I do not think that two LHCS sets are sufficient for all that - is it more likely that they are just the interim solution to replace the 170s later this year, so that Northern can keep the Blackpool/Cumbria 185s?

Bletchleyite · 4 Mar 2016

Greybeard33 said:
Remember that the Franchise Agreement calls for capacity increases from Dec 2017 as well as the additional Newcastle service: morning peak seats increased by 20% into Leeds, 35% into Manchester, 46% into Liverpool, 91% into Sheffield and 103% into Newcastle. I do not think that two LHCS sets are sufficient for all that - is it more likely that they are just the interim solution to replace the 170s later this year, so that Northern can keep the Blackpool/Cumbria 185s?

That would probably make some sense.

61653 HTAFC · 4 Mar 2016

Clarence Yard said:
Pretendalino is the word on the tracks, converted into 2 sets and 68 top n tailed.

Top and Tail presumably due to the set obviously only having 1 DVT. I assume there aren't any spare DVTs then? Based on the performance of 68s on Chiltern 2 locos wouldn't be needed for 4-coach sets so seems rather wasteful with either both burning fuel, or one having to drag the other. If both are running though they'll go like the clappers! Hope they end up on the semi-fasts but I'd have thought they'd be more suited to the Liverpool to Newcastle fasts.

Clarence Yard · 4 Mar 2016

Well if there are any workable DVT's about then I'm sure that top n tail won't happen. The one that was with the set when it was on the WCML wasn't rated as much good, so I'm told.

WatcherZero · 4 Mar 2016

Rumour last month was indeed 2x5 car operating Liverpool-Newcastle.

Class 170101 · 4 Mar 2016

I thought it was already mentioned that the Pretendolino wasn't being considered.

Additionally I suggested that the 170s could stay where they are until February 2017 because the Gospeal Oak to Barking route has no need for (all) their 172s between May 2016 and February 2017 due to electrification of that route. Instead Chiltern borrow these units in the interim.

DMU180 · 5 Mar 2016

The rumblings I have heard is 68's (Internal Job descriptions gave this away), AT300 bimodes stuck on the back of the GWR and Hull Trains order) and then I can only guess a new build Bimode similar to the 185 style semi fast services. Northern may have rushed into their new franchise from the outside with their new train orders however their communication with their staff has been none existent. Arriva have no idea what they are doing from the sounds of it! First have told all their staff whether or not they have a job and if not which ones they are most suited for out of the new jobs created. While the cranks on this forum love to give First Group a tough time they are far and away the best owning group for their staff.

BurtonM · 5 Mar 2016

^First are incumbent though, they actually can communicate with the current workforce.
Arriva have no part in the current Northern franchise so how do they communicate with their future workforce without going through Serco/Abellio/Alex Hynes?
It might not be won't, but can't...

gimmea50anyday · 6 Mar 2016

First arent exactly communicating with the workforce tho, and that is a major problem!.....

pemma · 7 Mar 2016

BurtonM said:
^First are incumbent though, they actually can communicate with the current workforce.
Arriva have no part in the current Northern franchise so how do they communicate with their future workforce without going through Serco/Abellio/Alex Hynes?

First are not incumbent. First/Kelios are the current franchise holder and a new MD starts when First takes over on 1st April, the current MD was only appointed on an interim basis until 31st March. Kelios were a rival bidder to First in the most recent bidding.

Alex Hynes is to be TUPEd to Arriva on 1st April along with the other Northern staff and will retain his MD role under Arriva. Although, what he knows and how much of that he can currently communicate to employees pre-1st April is a different question. I thought the MD of Arriva Trains UK has already said no existing Northern employees will be made redundant as a result of the change of franchise.

Mordac · 7 Mar 2016

As someone who uses the Manchester Airport to Edinburgh trains several times per week, I am really hoping they go with mini-Pendolinos rather than any other of the options mooted, for the Scottish services, that is. Don't really understand what the point is of getting non-tilting 125mph trains to go on the WCML, as they would never be able to go near that speed.

Bob Ames · 7 Mar 2016

Mordac said:
As someone who uses the Manchester Airport to Edinburgh trains several times per week, I am really hoping they go with mini-Pendolinos rather than any other of the options mooted, for the Scottish services, that is. Don't really understand what the point is of getting non-tilting 125mph trains to go on the WCML, as they would never be able to go near that speed.

I think TPE do just fine at 100 mph. What they need is more seats and more luggage space, which they won't get with tilting plastic tubes.

pemma · 7 Mar 2016

Bob Ames said:
I think TPE do just fine at 100 mph. What they need is more seats and more luggage space, which they won't get with tilting plastic tubes.

It's already been noted the 350/4s have now been cleared for 110mph running and with TPE needing to add in some extra (Liverpool) services they might not find paths if 100mph units are used.

Mordac · 8 Mar 2016

jcollins said:
It's already been noted the 350/4s have now been cleared for 110mph running and with TPE needing to add in some extra (Liverpool) services they might not find paths if 100mph units are used.

Not only that, but when you're in a Virgin Train that is running late and ended up behind the TPE one, then you just accumulate delay due to having to run at 100mph as well (at least from my experience there's no where for them to overtake between Lancaster and Carlisle, though I welcome corrections on this). Having the TPE trains doing 125mph would streamline the whole thing.

LNW-GW Joint · 8 Mar 2016

Mordac said:
Not only that, but when you're in a Virgin Train that is running late and ended up behind the TPE one, then you just accumulate delay due to having to run at 100mph as well (at least from my experience there's no where for them to overtake between Lancaster and Carlisle, though I welcome corrections on this). Having the TPE trains doing 125mph would streamline the whole thing.

There's a platform loop in the northbound direction at Penrith.
The speed differential is one reason why TPE services are always the last in the flight, preceded by the Trent Valley fast and the Brum.
You'd have to be running very late to impact the next flight.

Mordac · 8 Mar 2016

LNW-GW Joint said:
There's a platform loop in the northbound direction at Penrith.
The speed differential is one reason why TPE services are always the last in the flight, preceded by the Trent Valley fast and the Brum.
You'd have to be running very late to impact the next flight.

You misunderstood me, but I probably didn't explain myself correctly.

My journey is Edinburgh-Lancaster and vice-versa, so I'll take either the Virgin or the TPE services: mostly the latter because they're cheaper, but sometimes the Virgin is just more convenient. But sometimes the Virgin (and it's only Brum ones for Edi) will be running late from before Wigan, and the TPE gets in ahead. This has happened to me a few times. When it did, we always went behind it at 100mph until Carlisle, where we tended to overtake them, although one time we didn't even get to do that due to lack of platform IIRC.

By the way, is there a procedure for doing this, where the signaller will tell the driver over radio that there's a slower train ahead and to adjust their speed, or does the driver have to guess this is the case from seeing double yellows when going at top speed?

notlob.divad · 16 Mar 2016

Still no solid news on this? 2 weeks to the new franchise start I would have thought there would be an announcement of some sort by now.

pemma · 16 Mar 2016

notlob.divad said:
Still no solid news on this? 2 weeks to the new franchise start I would have thought there would be an announcement of some sort by now.

First Group have said they'll make a full announcement on rolling stock plans on the day the franchise starts (1st April.) Although, insiders seem to have concluded it'll be 3 classes of trains from two manufacturers - Hitachi and CAF, with an interim solution of 2 sets of class 68 hauled mk3s in 4 car formation on Liverpool-Newcastle services.

LNW-GW Joint · 16 Mar 2016

FirstGroup won't/can't say anything in detail before there are contracts signed with ROSCOs/manufacturers, or at least preferred suppliers.
It would undermine their negotiating position otherwise.
There's also an impact on their maintenance and depot strategy.

TH172341 · 16 Mar 2016

1st April is the likely date of announcement - will be interesting as to what is ordered. Seems increasingly likely, if going by rumour, that it won't be a Siemens Verve option. Did Bombardier ever offer a 125mph Aventra version out of interest (if known of course)?

pemma · 16 Mar 2016

TH172341 said:
1st April is the likely date of announcement - will be interesting as to what is ordered. Seems increasingly likely, if going by rumour, that it won't be a Siemens Verve option. Did Bombardier ever offer a 125mph Aventra version out of interest (if known of course)?

I thought Bombardier were looking at whether they could get a 115mph Verve opposed to a 125mph version and I don't think they are interested in creating a diesel option.

Xenophon PCDGS · 16 Mar 2016

LNW-GW Joint said:
FirstGroup won't/can't say anything in detail before there are contracts signed with ROSCOs/manufacturers, or at least preferred suppliers.

And quite rightly so.

TH172341 · 16 Mar 2016

That's probably the case - Bombardier are sticking to developing the electrics now really. Probably sensible in the long run with future electrification schemes - East West Rail and the Electric Spine. They've got a long run of orders anyway with the 387s, 345s and 710s.

gimmea50anyday · 16 Mar 2016

All we know is 68's are involved with intercity style coaches i.e end doors and 442's are not going to be used

Will need more than two rakes, would have thought 5 at least for LIV-NCL workings.....

New TPE Train Discussion

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