East Kent Signalling Phase 2: Why's it still not switched on?

brad465 · 31 Dec 2015

Having Travelled down the Chatham Mainline a couple of times recently from Victoria to at least Sittingbourne, I've noticed that most of the new signals that I saw were in place before Christmas last year still haven't been switched on, and wondered why is it taking so long?

hock:

I expected one possible reason was for it to coincide with Rochester's new station opening, but this doesn't appear to be the case (though new signals are working in that area).

I'm almost certain a thread exists somewhere about the whole project and if this has the answer could I be directed to it?

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talldave · 31 Dec 2015

I noticed a lot of equipment covered with black sacks when I was at the new Rochester station taking pics - is that all new signalling?

Philip Phlopp · 31 Dec 2015

It's due for commissioning in April 2016.

I'm not aware of any major problems (though S&T isn't my thing) so I'd guess it's just plodding along at its own pace, probably due to a lack of access opportunities for more major works.

nom de guerre · 31 Dec 2015

The problem is the limited number of available slots each year for long possessions.

Once the original completion date of Easter 2015 was missed, the next realistic options were Christmas 2015 or Easter 2016. Christmas was ruled out due to other possessions in Kent, so it was decided to go for the latter.

The main line part (the area currently controlled by Rochester, Gillingham, Rainham & Sittingbourne boxes) should be ready for next Easter but the Medway Valley part has been indefinitely postponed.

Meanwhile, expect delays at Rochester in the evening peak, as the pre-existing signalling equipment is, unsurprisingly, less than ideally located for the new station.

68000 · 1 Jan 2016

It needs to be aligned to the signalling testing resources, if a major signalling commissioning misses it's slot, it is not necessarily the case that it can make the next slot as the resources will be earmarked for another major signalling commissioning

ScotGG · 1 Jan 2016

Will the collapse of the seawall at Folkestone now re-direct resources to that so it's missed again?

They didn't seem too concerned with missing the last deadline for the line and as said Medway Valley is now indefinitely postponed.

Was one of the main reasons was for longer trains? As SE seem to be having no luck from the govt in gaining anymore stock will it just go on hiatus and let the franchise continue to suffer overcrowding?

MarkyT · 1 Jan 2016

ScotGG said:
Will the collapse of the seawall at Folkestone now re-direct resources to that so it's missed again?

They didn't seem too concerned with missing the last deadline for the line and as said Medway Valley is now indefinitely postponed.

Was one of the main reasons was for longer trains? As SE seem to be having no luck from the govt in gaining anymore stock will it just go on hiatus and let the franchise continue to suffer overcrowding?

I think NR will be very keen to meet the current planned changeover date for EKR2. Folkestone sea wall remedial works will not be reliant on much signalling resource so should not be much of a clash. Keeping two sets of signalling equipment maintained on the same network is a very bad idea however. If the time between installation and commissioning of the new kit is extended once again, then there will be increasing worries about degradation of the new equipment, not powered up or being monitored by diagnostics etc. No power and hence heat or ventilation in equipment cabinets means damp and condensation can take hold quickly and cause damage to components before they've even been commissioned.

nom de guerre · 1 Jan 2016

68000 said:
It needs to be aligned to the signalling testing resources, if a major signalling commissioning misses it's slot, it is not necessarily the case that it can make the next slot as the resources will be earmarked for another major signalling commissioning

Yes. But in this case, a lack of testers was not the problem. In fact, resourcing had already begun for Christmas before the plug was pulled.

brad465 · 2 Jan 2016

nom de guerre said:
The problem is the limited number of available slots each year for long possessions.

Once the original completion date of Easter 2015 was missed, the next realistic options were Christmas 2015 or Easter 2016. Christmas was ruled out due to other possessions in Kent, so it was decided to go for the latter.

The main line part (the area currently controlled by Rochester, Gillingham, Rainham & Sittingbourne boxes) should be ready for next Easter but the Medway Valley part has been indefinitely postponed.

Meanwhile, expect delays at Rochester in the evening peak, as the pre-existing signalling equipment is, unsurprisingly, less than ideally located for the new station.

What actually needs to be done that requires a long posssession? In my mind its taking all the old stuff out as well, wanting to be done all at the same time, but I can't see why it can't be stretched over several weekends.

As for your Rochester comment, I'm guessing that explains why going through in mid-December on my to Dartford involved a 2 min sit at a red light in the old station, given the high-speed service was infront (I always think their timing of 3 mins is stupid, and the Cannon St timed train leaving Dartford after the same Gillingham-Charing X service for that matter

).

cjmillsnun · 3 Jan 2016

I would imagine that the actual changeover at each location itself is relatively quick, and that most of the time is spent end to end testing for every operation. The last thing you want to do is commission without full testing and find a problem when in service. (think Clapham Junction!)

It is not until commissioning that points and track circuits/axle counters are finally fully wired up. The old stuff (signals) can be covered with a hood to show they are out of use and removed bit by bit (although getting it all done in a long possession like Christmas or Easter would be preferable).

I don't work in the railway industry however work with SCADA systems and a lot of the time spent in commissioning is with end to end testing. I really doubt the railway would be any different in that respect.

68000 · 3 Jan 2016

^^^

Correct, signalling principles testing is very rigorous (it has to be). It is also testing that unsafe conditions do not exist within the software as well as correct operation of the intended signalling.

nom de guerre · 3 Jan 2016

brad465 said:
What actually needs to be done that requires a long posssession? In my mind its taking all the old stuff out as well, wanting to be done all at the same time, but I can't see why it can't be stretched over several weekends.

As for your Rochester comment, I'm guessing that explains why going through in mid-December on my to Dartford involved a 2 min sit at a red light in the old station, given the high-speed service was infront (I always think their timing of 3 mins is stupid, and the Cannon St timed train leaving Dartford after the same Gillingham-Charing X service for that matter ).

Lots of testing and commissioning work over a reasonably large area.

My comment was actually referring to the down direction, rather than the up: most trains calling at the new station 'cost' a signal section as they occupy the overlap of the signal in rear.

LAX54 · 3 Jan 2016

brad465 said:
What actually needs to be done that requires a long posssession? In my mind its taking all the old stuff out as well, wanting to be done all at the same time, but I can't see why it can't be stretched over several weekends.

As for your Rochester comment, I'm guessing that explains why going through in mid-December on my to Dartford involved a 2 min sit at a red light in the old station, given the high-speed service was infront (I always think their timing of 3 mins is stupid, and the Cannon St timed train leaving Dartford after the same Gillingham-Charing X service for that matter ).

It can and does take a very long time, there are no shortcuts, every conceivable scenario has to be tested and checked, then double checked, miss one thing and it could be fatal. It's not taking the old stuff out that takes time, that is simply switched off, and isolated, does not take long to flatten a few signals, and that can be done whilst the testers are testiing.
One of the problems is the shortage of testers too, they are in veru short supply, miss one deadline, then as mantioned it could be a year or more before you can get them in again.

MarkyT · 4 Jan 2016

oldsiggie said:
It can and does take a very long time, there are no shortcuts, every conceivable scenario has to be tested and checked, then double checked, miss one thing and it could be fatal. It's not taking the old stuff out that takes time, that is simply switched off, and isolated, does not take long to flatten a few signals, and that can be done whilst the testers are testiing.
One of the problems is the shortage of testers too, they are in veru short supply, miss one deadline, then as mantioned it could be a year or more before you can get them in again.

With data-configured computer-based interlockings as employed for EKR1 & 2, the principles testing of the logic you describe is carried out beforehand in the design office on a test system with inputs and outputs simulated. What remains to be tested on the ground is the connection of the real interlockings (with the fully tested data installed) to the hundreds of real inputs and outputs along the trackside controlling signals and points and monitoring train detection systems. That work is very labour intensive with a lot of people out on the trackside connecting and powering up equipment, setting it to work and confirming its operation back to the control centre. At Rochester I think there's a also a fair amount of track layout changes to be completed and the existing signalbox needs to be demolished to allow completion of the platform loop line at the new station, work which can't commence until the old signalling has been decommissioned clearly!

LAX54 · 4 Jan 2016

And if it's anyhting like the resig schemes I have seen, although 'tested in the office' invariably it does not when commisioning takes place ! there is always a gremlin somewhere, as for time just one 'route' of a few yards with half a dozen routes (or less) off it, can and does take many hours.

nom de guerre · 4 Jan 2016

MarkyT said:
At Rochester I think there's a also a fair amount of track layout changes to be completed and the existing signalbox needs to be demolished to allow completion of the platform loop line at the new station, work which can't commence until the old signalling has been decommissioned clearly!

Most of the track layout changes which are possible prior to the demolition of Rochester box have already been completed (but not commissioned). The only outstanding alteration is the removal of the facing points linking the DM to the the DPL at the old station.

ScotGG · 14 Mar 2016

So this is on time and all will be complete by April?

What benefits will then be seen?

ComUtoR · 14 Mar 2016

ScotGG said:
What benefits will then be seen?

12 car platforms

MrB · 14 Mar 2016

ComUtoR said:
12 car platforms

Nothing more than that?!?

ComUtoR · 14 Mar 2016

Somehow I managed to overwrite my reply :/ If any mods have a cached version please replace this post. Ta.

ScotGG · 14 Mar 2016

ComUtoR said:
12 car platforms

I thought 12-car HS1 and 375s trains already stopped along this stretch?

And Southeastern have far from enough stock to run 12-car Networker metro services?

ComUtoR · 14 Mar 2016

ScotGG said:
And Southeastern have far from enough stock to run 12-car Networker metro services?

So what happens when we do have enough stock. Do we get into a situation like Woolwich Dockyard where 12 cars cannot stop or do we build for the future ?

Infrastructure needs to be in place and needs to be at least slightly future proof. 12 car platforms are currently the next step. With capacity being a major complaint for passengers a 12 car platform is the next logical step.

This single benefit has a wide impact on the entire route. The old platform couldn't be extended by all accounts so a new station had to be built. Seems excessive just to enable 12 cars but it is an important step the network needs to take.

Tio Terry · 14 Mar 2016

Work over Easter will see a lot of the new signalling commissioned, Christmas the works should be completed and the Down loop brought in to use. The signal box has to be demolished to complete the track layout.

33056 · 14 Mar 2016

Tio Terry said:
Work over Easter will see a lot of the new signalling commissioned, Christmas the works should be completed and the Down loop brought in to use. The signal box has to be demolished to complete the track layout.

Did notice that when we visited the new station!

ScotGG · 14 Mar 2016

ComUtoR said:
So what happens when we do have enough stock. Do we get into a situation like Woolwich Dockyard where 12 cars cannot stop or do we build for the future ?

Infrastructure needs to be in place and needs to be at least slightly future proof. 12 car platforms are currently the next step. With capacity being a major complaint for passengers a 12 car platform is the next logical step.

This single benefit has a wide impact on the entire route. The old platform couldn't be extended by all accounts so a new station had to be built. Seems excessive just to enable 12 cars but it is an important step the network needs to take.

As no one seems to want to rebuild Woolwich Dockyard nor do anything with the Networkers or 376s for the next 15 years, all the other work on metro routes as it stands has mostly been a complete waste of time.

So the re-signalling work is solely about Rochester station's layout?

ComUtoR · 14 Mar 2016

ScotGG said:
As no one seems to want to rebuild Woolwich Dockyard

I don't believe no one wants to rebuild the station. I don't think its physically possible. Rochester is different because there was plenty of space.

nor do anything with the Networkers or 376s for the next 15 years, all the other work on metro routes as it stands has mostly been a complete waste of time.

I think you need to qualify that statement. I don't think its been a waste. Infrastructure upgrades are vital and some stations are old and decrepit and are basically end of life. Stock is different and it has a swathe of problems all on its own. I would say that new stations and platform extensions are relatively easy to build but to commission, design, and build an entirely new fleet of trains isn't something that can happen overnight. They are also funded from different sources so financially there are issues too.

So the re-signalling work is solely about Rochester station's layout?

If you change the layout then you have to change the signalling too. The ins and outs of why this has all been done is far far beyond my pay scale.

MarkyT · 14 Mar 2016

ScotGG said:
So the re-signalling work is solely about Rochester station's layout?

ComUtoR said:
If you change the layout then you have to change the signalling too. The ins and outs of why this has all been done is far far beyond my pay scale.

The main justification for East Kent Resignalling, Phases 1 and 2, was the renewal of life expired signalling, much of whose lineside equipment originated in the mid to late 1950s and also incorporated some even older signal boxes with mechanical lever frames. As is always the case, the resignalling scheme offered a once in a generation opportunity to combine signalling work with other asset renewals, particularly of station and junction track layouts, both to minimise overall disruption and to cost effectively revise facilities to meet modern standards and incorporate any improvements desired by stakeholders. The old station at Rochester was a particular problem having substandard platform lengths and no space available to extend the loops easily on the narrow embankments and bridges. The local authority had long held aspirations of moving the station to a more prominent site and had land available for access on the town side. There was also much quayside development underway on the opposite side of the railway to help leverage this.

ComUtoR · 14 Mar 2016

From a pure infrastructure perspective then improved platform length, updated signals and equipment is certainly beneficial.

From a layout perspective then you have the flexibility of the new station to provide loop lines when things go wrong and on a daily basis there should be an increase in capacity.

MarkyT said:
The main justification for East Kent Resignalling, Phases 1 and 2, was the renewal of life expired signalling, much of whose lineside equipment originated in the mid to late 1950s and also incorporated some even older signal boxes with mechanical lever frames. (...) The old station at Rochester was a particular problem having substandard platform lengths and no space available to extend the loops easily on the narrow embankments and bridges.

Cheers Marky Mark and the funky T I feel a little vindicated on my earlier reply. Thanks for the more in depth analysis.

user15681 · 14 Mar 2016

ScotGG said:
So the re-signalling work is solely about Rochester station's layout?

I know MarkyT has already explained it's more than that, but I thought I could briefly add to it.

Intentions (...ahem!) were for ife expired signalling will be replaced Longfield to Sittingbourne, re-control of signalling to different areas, upgrade of level crossings, demolition of signalling boxes, asset renewals, platform extensions at Sole Street, Strood, new station at Rochester, 12 car enabling infrastructure at Strood, Rochester, Chatham and Gillingham, turn back facility in new platform at Rainham, reduced headways, capacity increase.

MarkyT · 14 Mar 2016

Temple said:
I know MarkyT has already explained it's more than that, but I thought I could briefly add to it.

Intentions (...ahem!) were for ife expired signalling will be replaced Longfield to Sittingbourne, re-control of signalling to different areas, upgrade of level crossings, demolition of signalling boxes, asset renewals, platform extensions at Sole Street, Strood, new station at Rochester, 12 car enabling infrastructure at Strood, Rochester, Chatham and Gillingham, turn back facility in new platform at Rainham, reduced headways, capacity increase.

A very comprehensive list!

East Kent Signalling Phase 2: Why's it still not switched on?

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