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Wrexham redouble

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Rhydgaled

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But that still wouldn't connect Wrexham with Manchester.
No it wouldn't, but how important is it to connect Wrexham with Manchester anyway? More so than Wrexham-Holyhead probably, but I see it as a choice between Wrexham-Manchester or Wrexham-Liverpool. The following quote from the article linked to earlier suggests Merseytravel might have been willing to pay for infrustructure to enable Wrexham-Liverpool, so that's definately an important link.
Merseytravel, the transport authority for the Liverpool city region, is disappointed with the outcome of the Welsh Government’s investment because it would like through trains between Liverpool and Wrexham.

Liam Robinson, chair of Merseytravel, suggested at a recent National Assembly for Wales inquiry on rail infrastructure that with better coordination across the Wales-England border, funding might have been available to install the complete second track in one go.
Wrexham and Shrewsbury both only have south-facing bays, and the semi-redoubled line will presumably take half-hourly services at most. Thus most services at Wrexham are going to come from Cardiff or Birmingham, both of which already have their own through services to Manchester (via more direct routes), but Cardiff to Liverpool seems to make sense as a through route and gives Wrexham through trains to Liverpool. Assuming the Halton curve service is going to be hourly, it also means you don't need to wire the Halton curve (whereas you would if you want north Wales electrification and through services from Llandudno/Bangor/Holyhead to Liverpool).

The only way you could link Wrexham to both Liverpool and Manchester would probably be to get the Wrexham-Bidston route electrified (for the Liverpool link) and extend the proposed Northern Connect Manchester-Chester service to Swansea (via Wrexham, Shrewsbury and Llandrindod Wells). I don't see that happening somehow. Otherwise, you have to deprive the north Wales coast of Manchester trains, and you still have the problem of where they would go south of Shrewsbury. Unless you reconfigure Wrexham to allow trains from Chester to go to Wrexham Central.

I read that the services franchised by the Welsh government were going to be restricted only to services that started and finished within Wales.
That's one story, another is that services which serve principally English markets wouldn't transfer. If anything that starts/finishes in Wales is going to transfer to English TOCs, that doesn't leave many logical routes for the W&B franchise outside south Wales (the Cambrian lines would be (almost) wholely run by an English TOC for example).

Stopping patterns are rather vague, but one of the Chester-Warrington-Manchester services should be semi-fast.
If you ask me, the Northern Connect service should take the calls from the current ATW Manchesters. That should mean most of the English stations are served by an English TOC and W&B (calling at just Warrington and Newton-Le-Willows perhaps) might be able run to Manchester saying there are serving a principally Welsh market.

It is also to replace the current calls at Warrington Central by TPE (the Liverpool-Scarborough service will switch to running via Newton-le-Willows and Victoria).
Am I missing something? How would the Northern Connect Manchester-Chester service call at Warrington Central?
 
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edwin_m

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Am I missing something? How would the Northern Connect Manchester-Chester service call at Warrington Central?

It would call at Bank Quay, but although that's less convenient for the centre of Warrington it won't make a lot of difference to many passengers and it provides another fastish service between Warrington (as a whole) and Manchester.

However I think the replacement for the TPE is actually the Northern Connect Liverpool to Manchester Airport via Warrington Central.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Am I missing something? How would the Northern Connect Manchester-Chester service call at Warrington Central?

No, you're not missing anything, I just couldn't be bothered to mention the station switch from Central to Bank Quay. Regulars will be well aware. ;)
Actually Warrington will pick up an extra hourly train to Manchester, and a(nother) direct link to Manchester Airport (if ATW keep its present Airport paths).
That will be sorted for the 2018 refranchise of W&B.
 

notlob.divad

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Rhydgaled

I think we are both suggesting the same thing. I realized I put
Extend the Chester Connect Service to Wrexham.
In my previous post, I shouldn't have as I had forgotten about the Birmingham train.

It sounds like someone thought the limited re-doubling could take all of them. Maybe we are looking in the wrong place though and it was the Birmingham Holyhead train path that the Northern Connect might have taken. Welsh government against the idea of cutting both 'reverse at Chester' services so turned down the connection to Manchester.
I don't know the usage of this train, but would a Birmingham to Wrexham service and a Holyhead/Llandudno to Liverpool be viable.

I don't understand your point about the Halton curve. I would guess that will be done if/when Chester-Warrington electrification is done ie a long time in the future. I thought North Wales electrification was about extending the Crewe-Chester electrification along the coast. Therefore I don't see why running Liverpool-North Wales coast services would be any different than running Manchester - Holyhead.
 

Rhydgaled

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I don't understand your point about the Halton curve. I would guess that will be done if/when Chester-Warrington electrification is done ie a long time in the future. I thought North Wales electrification was about extending the Crewe-Chester electrification along the coast. Therefore I don't see why running Liverpool-North Wales coast services would be any different than running Manchester - Holyhead.
I thought differently. North Wales electrification, I thought, was dependent on both Crewe-Chester AND Chester-Warrington-Manchester being electrified. The way I see it, making a case for North Wales electrification requires maximising electric trains per hour and minimising the amount of electrification necessary. The Halton curve is extra track to electrify, and as Shrewsbury-Wrexham-Chester runs north-south (ish) it seems to make sense to me to make the services through Wrexham mainly north-south (ie. Cardiff-Liverpool, not Cardiff-Holyhead as that is east-west along the north Wales coast), although you also have Birmingham-Wrexham too (the latter might as well continue to Chester as the unit would have to sit in Wrexham for ages otherwise, but since it isn't the fastest route from Birmingham to north Wales running them through to Holyhead is just a waste of ETRMS equiped 158s). (Chester)-Wrexham-Birmingham is one of the through services into England which I think must be protected from DfT trying to end cross-border services (or at least take control of them).
 

Philip Phlopp

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I thought differently. North Wales electrification, I thought, was dependent on both Crewe-Chester AND Chester-Warrington-Manchester being electrified. The way I see it, making a case for North Wales electrification requires maximising electric trains per hour and minimising the amount of electrification necessary.

It's complicated.

North Wales electrification needs Warrington and Chester to be completed, and in addition to converting the maximum number of trains currently using the route, to get close to a BCR of 1, there needs to be an extension of all Euston services to Bangor/Holyhead, a new hourly Manchester to Holyhead service, and a new Liverpool to Bangor/Holyhead service (think every other hour for that).

There also needs to be a commitment from the Welsh Government, which also requires DfT support as there's route mileage in England, to electrify the north to south route or alternatively, a commitment by the Welsh Government and/or Welsh franchise to procure bi-mode stock to operate north to south services, removing most of the remaining diesel operated services from the North Wales coast.
 

edwin_m

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It's complicated.

North Wales electrification needs Warrington and Chester to be completed, and in addition to converting the maximum number of trains currently using the route, to get close to a BCR of 1, there needs to be an extension of all Euston services to Bangor/Holyhead, a new hourly Manchester to Holyhead service, and a new Liverpool to Bangor/Holyhead service (think every other hour for that).

There also needs to be a commitment from the Welsh Government, which also requires DfT support as there's route mileage in England, to electrify the north to south route or alternatively, a commitment by the Welsh Government and/or Welsh franchise to procure bi-mode stock to operate north to south services, removing most of the remaining diesel operated services from the North Wales coast.

Have you looked at an option where all trains from the direction of Wrexham into Chester terminated there, and the Coast service was roughly the same as now but run as extensions of Manchester and Crewe (both routes electrified) services?
 

krus_aragon

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Have you looked at an option where all trains from the direction of Wrexham into Chester terminated there, and the Coast service was roughly the same as now but run as extensions of Manchester and Crewe (both routes electrified) services?

Am I right in interpreting that as:
  • Hourly Holyhead-Crewe
  • Hourly Llandudno-Manchester
  • Hourly Chester-Wrexham-Shrewsbury (alternating Birmingham/Cardiff)
  • No substantial change to Virgin services
or equivalent?
 

notlob.divad

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I thought differently. North Wales electrification, I thought, was dependent on both Crewe-Chester AND Chester-Warrington-Manchester being electrified. The way I see it, making a case for North Wales electrification requires maximising electric trains per hour and minimising the amount of electrification necessary. The Halton curve is extra track to electrify, and as Shrewsbury-Wrexham-Chester runs north-south (ish) it seems to make sense to me to make the services through Wrexham mainly north-south (ie. Cardiff-Liverpool, not Cardiff-Holyhead as that is east-west along the north Wales coast), although you also have Birmingham-Wrexham too (the latter might as well continue to Chester as the unit would have to sit in Wrexham for ages otherwise, but since it isn't the fastest route from Birmingham to north Wales running them through to Holyhead is just a waste of ETRMS equiped 158s). (Chester)-Wrexham-Birmingham is one of the through services into England which I think must be protected from DfT trying to end cross-border services (or at least take control of them).

I see your point, but I think it is such a short section you may as well do it whilst you are going past.

I have no problem with Cardiff - Liverpool that is the service I want more than any other, so splitting the Cardiff Holyhead is no brainier for me. Running Manchester - Holyhead you don't really need the Manchester - Llandudno, so I would direct that to Liverpool via the curve. It doesn't matter if its electric or not, but for 2 relatively short sections (Halton Curve and Llandudno - Llandudno Junction) it could be run electric.

Therefore, if the partial single track Wrexham-Chester is limited to 2tph, should the price of a Wrexham - Manchester service actually be, Shrewsberry - Chester direct connectivity which would transfer to a change at Crewe.
 
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Philip Phlopp

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Have you looked at an option where all trains from the direction of Wrexham into Chester terminated there, and the Coast service was roughly the same as now but run as extensions of Manchester and Crewe (both routes electrified) services?

Not my area unfortunately. That's something the Welsh Government, Network Rail business planning/timetable planning and others have been working on since being told the estimated cost for the electrification to try and develop a business case, including a significant socio-economic case and also determining the net dis-benefit from Crewe to Chester electrification on its own.
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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The historic routes are of course (Euston-) Crewe-Chester-Holyhead and (Paddington) Shrewsbury-Wrexham-Chester-Birkenhead.
Substitute Liverpool via Halton for Birkenhead, and Cardiff for Paddington, and you might have a goer.
 

krus_aragon

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The historic routes are of course (Euston-) Crewe-Chester-Holyhead and (Paddington) Shrewsbury-Wrexham-Chester-Birkenhead.
Substitute Liverpool via Halton for Birkenhead, and Cardiff for Paddington, and you might have a goer.

Yes... I'm intrigued that many recent posters haven't rated a North Wales-Crewe through service as important. Virgin's current service doesn't really count, as after 7am they only run 4 services eastbound all day.
 

Rhydgaled

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North Wales electrification needs Warrington and Chester to be completed, and in addition to converting the maximum number of trains currently using the route, to get close to a BCR of 1, there needs to be an extension of all Euston services to Bangor/Holyhead, a new hourly Manchester to Holyhead service, and a new Liverpool to Bangor/Holyhead service (think every other hour for that).
So, you're saying you need 3.5 electric trains per hour to make the case (
  • 1tph Llandudno - Manchester
  • 1tph Holyhead - Manchester
  • 1tph Holyhead - Euston
  • 0.5tph Bangor - Liverpool
)? And you're suggesting the Holyhead-Birmingham and Holyhead - Cardiff services continue at 0.5tph each? That's 3tph just to Holyhead!

There also needs to be a commitment from the Welsh Government, which also requires DfT support as there's route mileage in England, to electrify the north to south route or alternatively, a commitment by the Welsh Government and/or Welsh franchise to procure bi-mode stock to operate north to south services, removing most of the remaining diesel operated services from the North Wales coast.
Or, just cut those services, and introduce a 3 trains each way express service between Holyhead and Cardiff, limiting diesel on the north Wales coast to just those three trains each way. You absolutely CANNOT ELECTRIFIY Wrexham-Shrewsbury, as I see the Wrexham-Birmingham and Pwllheli/Aberystwyth-Birmignham trains as vital through services and apparently the only way of providing all of that is interworking the services at Birmingham, and the Cambrian coast is a LONG way down the list for wires.

I see your point, but I think it is such a short section you may as well do it whilst you are going past.

I have no problem with Cardiff - Liverpool that is the service I want more than any other, so splitting the Cardiff Holyhead is no brainier for me. Running Manchester - Holyhead you don't really need the Manchester - Llandudno, so I would direct that to Liverpool via the curve. It doesn't matter if its electric or not, but for 2 relatively short sections (Halton Curve and Llandudno - Llandudno Junction) it could be run electric.
I agree the Halton curve is a relatively short bit of track, but what is the frequency of services planned to be using it? If there's a Cardiff-Liverpool, it would be diesel anyway and (assuming it is hourly) could well take up the only available path into Liverpool from Chester via the Halton curve.

Am I right in interpreting that as:
  • Hourly Holyhead-Crewe
  • Hourly Llandudno-Manchester
  • Hourly Chester-Wrexham-Shrewsbury (alternating Birmingham/Cardiff)
  • No substantial change to Virgin services
or equivalent?
I think so, although I'm slightly undecided about exactly where you send the north Wales coast services east of Chester. In north Wales, I would suggest:
  • 0.5tph Llandudno-Holyhead (stopper)
  • 1tph Llandundo - Chester - ? (stopper)
  • 1tph Holyhead - Chester - ? (FAST, Bangor, Llandudno Junction, Rhyl and Flint only, for 3 trains per day this path would be taken by the residual Cardiff service)
  • 1tph Bangor - Chester - ? (semi-fast, with an asperation to extend to Caernarfon late CP6 / early CP7)
East of Chester, some trains would go to Manchester and others to Birmingham (via Crewe and Stafford). Which of the three western termini would get which I'm not sure about, ideally the FAST Holyhead would be alternately Manchester and Euston services every two hours (with alternate Euston services terminating at Chester) but that might be difficult to timetable. Even better would be to scrap the stupid 'Birmingham Bypass' for HS2 and turn Birmingham Curzon Street into a through station. Then you could have a HS2 Euston-Holyhead train serving the Birmingham-Holyhead market as well as the London-Holyhead market.

For the Wrexham line (the topic we are in of course) I would suggest:
  • 0.5tph Chester - Wrexham General - Birmingham International
  • 0.5tph Chester Wrexham General - Llandrindod Wells - Swansea
  • 1tph Liverpool - Chester - Wrexham General - Cardiff
The difficulty with this is you want the Cardiff - Liverpool and Cardiff - Manchester services to be spaced roughly (not exactly, since the Manchester would have fewer station calls) half an hour apart, and that appears to conflict with the timing of the Birmingham-Wrexham/Chester service in one direction.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Yes... I'm intrigued that many recent posters haven't rated a North Wales-Crewe through service as important. Virgin's current service doesn't really count, as after 7am they only run 4 services eastbound all day.

I think the ICWC franchise should run off-peak on a 2-hourly basis at least as far as Llandudno Jn (either to Bangor or Llandudno).
The W&B franchise can then fill the gaps on a regular basis, but run fewer miles overall.
I believe this was part of the Virgin/First plans for the aborted 2012 franchise.
Also similar Euston-Wolverhampton-Shrewsbury-Wrexham-Chester-Crewe-Euston services picking up the other half of the current Chester terminators.
This needed loco haulage off the wires, and more stock, which has not materialised.
We'll have to wait till ICWC is rebid next year to find out if it is still an option.
 

Philip Phlopp

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So, you're saying you need 3.5 electric trains per hour to make the case (
  • 1tph Llandudno - Manchester
  • 1tph Holyhead - Manchester
  • 1tph Holyhead - Euston
  • 0.5tph Bangor - Liverpool
)? And you're suggesting the Holyhead-Birmingham and Holyhead - Cardiff services continue at 0.5tph each? That's 3tph just to Holyhead!

I never said anything about 3.5 trains per hour being the required number to reach a BCR of 1 or to make the business case, it's not.

Bluntly, there's not enough of a population in North Wales to support the number of train services needed to make the business case on simple BCR terms, trains per hour needed would have to be in the region of 6 to 8 to make the business case. It needs closer to the same sort of service pattern as Crewe to Chester, basically.

There has been all sorts of modelling done (woe betide I mention this, last time it caused an almighty fallout) including using any new MerseyRail dual voltage stock to provide a MerseyRail service to Flint.

The Welsh Government are working on a more complex socio-economic model, which takes into account loss of GDP from doing nothing, dis-benefits from all WCML London services converting to electric and terminating at Chester, and other social impacts that could be indirectly attributed to the loss of through services to London and elsewhere.

Or, just cut those services, and introduce a 3 trains each way express service between Holyhead and Cardiff, limiting diesel on the north Wales coast to just those three trains each way. You absolutely CANNOT ELECTRIFIY Wrexham-Shrewsbury, as I see the Wrexham-Birmingham and Pwllheli/Aberystwyth-Birmignham trains as vital through services and apparently the only way of providing all of that is interworking the services at Birmingham, and the Cambrian coast is a LONG way down the list for wires.

The problem is every diesel train on the North Wales coast erodes an already weak business case for electrification. To get anywhere near a simple BCR of 1 for electrification, every unit on the North Wales coast needs to be an electric unit, that's not possible, but there would need to be some movement by the Welsh Government to convert some of the remaining diesel units to electric in some way.

Bi-mode is the easy (but expensive) way out for the Welsh Government, logic dictates AT300 units based at Swansea would solve the north-south Wales issue without needing an express commitment to electrification of the Wrexham to Shrewsbury route, they'll be more expensive to operate than Class 175 units, but cheaper than the WAG Express.
 

Rhydgaled

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Bluntly, there's not enough of a population in North Wales to support the number of train services needed to make the business case on simple BCR terms, trains per hour needed would have to be in the region of 6 to 8 to make the business case. It needs closer to the same sort of service pattern as Crewe to Chester, basically.
Eh? Crewe to Chester is only 2tph, so if the north Wales coast had a similar service pattern (2tph) it would still fall far short of the 6tph you suggest is needed.

The problem is every diesel train on the North Wales coast erodes an already weak business case for electrification. To get anywhere near a simple BCR of 1 for electrification, every unit on the North Wales coast needs to be an electric unit, that's not possible, but there would need to be some movement by the Welsh Government to convert some of the remaining diesel units to electric in some way.
Yes, diesel trains erode the case. Personally though, while no-diesels isn't really possible (since not having ZERO through trains between Holyhead and Cardiff isn't really acceptable), I think very few through diesels should be acheivable. My suggestion of three each way is alot less diesel-under-wires on the north Wales coast is alot less than the 14 each way which run between the north Wales coast and Wrexham in the current timetable.

Bi-mode is the easy (but expensive) way out for the Welsh Government, logic dictates AT300 units based at Swansea would solve the north-south Wales issue without needing an express commitment to electrification of the Wrexham to Shrewsbury route, they'll be more expensive to operate than Class 175 units, but cheaper than the WAG Express.
AT300s would be a very expensive option. I'd be supprised if it really was cheaper than the WAG express. About half of the 14 services from north Wales which run over the Wrexham single line are ETRMS-equiped 158s bound for Birmingham, it makes sense to split this service at Chester if only to free up units for the Cambrian. That'd be half of the diesels-under-hypothetical-wires in north Wales problem eliminated at one stroke without any bi-modes needed. As for the other half of the problem, getting the Cardiffs out of the way opens up an opertunity for Bangor/Holyhead/Llandudno to have more trains to Manchester/Crewe-Birmingham/Euston, and gives Wrexham through trains to Liverpool (by diverting the Cardiffs to Liverpool instead of Holyhead)

We don't need 125mph units with their massive cabs/crumple zones. If Wales cannot get additional 158s cascaded from elsewhere then new stock will probably be needed (unless mrk3s/mrk4s have some part to play), but I'd say something like a 175 but with Unit-End-Gangways would be ideal.
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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The BCR quote in the new Route Study for North Wales electrification (from Warrington/Crewe) is 0.35, rising to 0.58 if you include socio-economic factors.
But still under investigation, as part of the impact of the arrival of HS2 at Crewe.
Line speed increases west of Chester are "good value for money".

The Study is very detailed and has some items of real interest, but still fills me with despair when I read the only intervention planned before 2043 between Shrewsbury and Wrexham is a pair of intermediate block signals at £10m to shorten signal sections.
It also wastes a lot of space debating whether 2 or 5 vehicles (vehicles not trains) should be added to "selected" Cardiff-Manchester trains.
Good luck finding some extra class 175 vehicles.

Looks like an extra platform at Chester is on the cards, to support more services towards Wrexham.
Reversible signalling of P1/2 at Wrexham is also needed.
The "full redouble" debate is still alive, linked to the Halton Curve plans.

I can't find any reference to the line speed increase to 90mph between Shrewsbury and Wrexham.
This was part of the "North South Journey Time Improvements" project which is due for completion this year, but it's all gone very quiet on this.

Some reference to Shrewsbury-Newport resignalling being "under review", with a decision about now.
That sounds like life-extension of the existing kit to me.
 

Philip Phlopp

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Eh? Crewe to Chester is only 2tph, so if the north Wales coast had a similar service pattern (2tph) it would still fall far short of the 6tph you suggest is needed.

Ah, crossed purposes. I'm not talking about just the ATW service between Crewe and Chester, I'm talking about all services using the line between Crewe and Chester including ECS, which averages out to 6tph over the day (or did at the time the number crunching for the Welsh RUS Update was undertaken).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The BCR quote in the new Route Study for North Wales electrification (from Warrington/Crewe) is 0.35, rising to 0.58 if you include socio-economic factors.

You didn't come across the net dis-benefit (in £) to North Wales from converting all the London services to electric stock and terminating them at Chester, did you, in amongst the BCR data ?

I've got a number in my head but can't remember the appraisal period it's taken over.
 

notlob.divad

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For me the problem is entirely a political one. I fully understand the desire to keep Cardiff and Holyhead connected by a direct train, but it seems a fool's errand to penalize the connectivity with North West England just to keep it, simply because of a political line running from the River Wye to the River Dee.

On current timings the fastest Holyhead - Cardiff Journey is the Virgin train to Crewe, changing to the Cardiff - Manchester train. Knocking 40 minutes of the direct train.

The same can be said for the Holyhead-Birmingham Journey. If the Virgin train permanently runs all the way through to Holyhead, changing at Crewe gives a significantly faster journey time. Irrespective of the Politics of it, this has to be better for the people and surely give a higher BCR.

I say:
  • Extend the Virgin train to run all day in its hourly time slot which seem to take the Chester - Holyhead path of the Cardiff service when it runs.
  • Run the Cardiff leg of this service to Liverpool.
  • Manchester - Landudno can be run to Holyhead and speeded up by missing some of the smaller stops between Warrington and Llandudno Junction.
  • Landudno would then be served by a Liverpool - Landudno service stopping everywhere, thus reconnecting the North Wales coast with its nearest City.
A direct Liverpool service would be a massive boost for Tourism along the Welsh coast and give access to Liverpool Airport as well as Manchester. The option then with the limited doubling of Chester-Wrexham is:
  • Terminate the Birmingham train at Wrexham to allow the Northern Connect to be extended, Or
  • Keep the Birmingham train through to Chester and the Northern Connect service as planned.

All of these trains would primarily serve the people of Wales, perhaps with the exception of the Birmingham one, which could potentially transfer to London Midland.

It feels very much to me like whoever is making the decisions is doing so with one hand tied behind their back, for the purely political reason of keeping a N-S Wales service.
 
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Rhydgaled

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It also wastes a lot of space debating whether 2 or 5 vehicles (vehicles not trains) should be added to "selected" Cardiff-Manchester trains.
Good luck finding some extra class 175 vehicles.
Is rather strange to have that in a Network Rail document, platforms can't need lenthening since the 175s are really short trains for a route like that.

It doesn't actually say additional class 175 vehicles though does it? One additional 4-coach mark3 set like the Manchester-N.Wales one would allow at least four diagrams to be lengthened by one vehicle each, like so:
  • LHCS replaces 3-car 175
  • 3-car 175 replaces 2-car 175
  • 2-car 175 replaces one of the 3x south Wales 158 diagrams (no lengthening here, but)
  • 2-car 158 replaces 2-car 175 (again, no lengthening but)
  • 2-car 175 replaces another of the 2-car 158s in south Wales, allowing that 158 to couple to the one released above to give a 4-car train on what was a 2-car diagram, but that lengthens by two vehicles so
  • use the 4-car 158 formation to replace a 3-car 175
  • that 3-car 175 replaces then covers the diagram which was a 2-car 175
That would be so much simpler if the 2-car 175s had Unit End Gangways (you could skip the swapping with 158s). If you want to lengthen one train by two vehicles, then the LHCS set you start out with can be five coaches instead of four.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
For me the problem is entirely a political one. I fully understand the desire to keep Cardiff and Holyhead connected by a direct train, but it seems a fool's errand to penalize the connectivity with North West England just to keep it, simply because of a political line running from the River Wye to the River Dee.
I agree, but I think you can keep three political express north-south trains each way per day without 'penalizing the connectivity with North West England' much, if at all.

On current timings the fastest Holyhead - Cardiff Journey is the Virgin train to Crewe, changing to the Cardiff - Manchester train. Knocking 40 minutes of the direct train.
GWR's Mixing Deck journey planner suggests otherwise. Although the via Crewe option is faster than some ATW through trains, the fastest train is 'Y Gerallt Gymro' and the residual Holyhead-Cardiff service I suggest would have even fewer calls (harking back to the original schedule, but serving Wrexham instead of Crewe). The regular two-hourly ATW service though is a waste of space and needs to be split into seperate services at Chester, as does the Birmingham-Holyhead.
 
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notlob.divad

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Another benefit of splitting the services is for the electrification. Crewe-Holyhead. Manchester-Chester and the two short sections for Llandudno to Liverpool would mean all trains West of Chester running on wires. The Cardiff - Liverpool service would still have to be diesel powered, but would only run under new wires Chester-Runcorn.

I agree, but I think you can keep three political express north-south trains each way per day without 'penalizing the connectivity with North West England' much, if at all.

GWR's Mixing Deck journey planner suggests otherwise. Although the via Crewe option is faster than some ATW through trains, the fastest train is 'Y Gerallt Gymro' and the residual Holyhead-Cardiff service I suggest would have even fewer calls (harking back to the original schedule, but serving Wrexham instead of Crewe). The regular two-hourly ATW service though is a waste of space and needs to be split into seperate services at Chester, as does the Birmingham-Holyhead.

Maybe that is the solution then. Run a pattern as I suggested, but 3 times a day you run a Loco hauled 'Political Express' that could keep the 'Y Gerallt Gymro' name. (Sorry don't speak Welsh so had to translate).

If it is Loco Hauled I see no reason you couldn't swap Loco's at Chester and run this on the wires too.

This would disrupt 3 tpd Cardiff to Liverpool, which could still run Liverpool- Chester and 3 tpd Euston - Holyhead which could terminate short as now.
 

PHILIPE

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Many of these suggestions are all requiring additional units. Where from ? I should think the production line for 175s would be closed by now.
 

Rhydgaled

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Many of these suggestions are all requiring additional units. Where from ? I should think the production line for 175s would be closed by now.
Another benifit of electrification, far easier to procure new EMUs (modernised 442-like units would probably be ideal for north Wales services, though I'm not sure how many cars per unit would be appropriate) than DMUs. Most other franchise renewals are including pledges for new units. With north Wales wires and new EMUs, there should be plenty of 175s released to run hourly Liverpool-Cardiff services making use of the additional capacity provided by Wrexham redouble alongside the Cambrian-Birmingham-Wrexham-Chester 158s. Without wires maybe there'll just be a few more mrk3 sets (or perhaps they'll be replaced with mrk4s) to provide much-needed additional capacity, with services otherwise remaining broadly as now.
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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You didn't come across the net dis-benefit (in £) to North Wales from converting all the London services to electric stock and terminating them at Chester, did you, in amongst the BCR data ?
I've got a number in my head but can't remember the appraisal period it's taken over.

There's just this text on p58:
Additionally, it should be noted that the case for electrifying the
route from Crewe to Chester provides a high value for money
investment, although a journey time penalty for passengers
travelling to and from North Wales, so consideration is required
between governments as to how an overall scheme to Holyhead
and Llandudno would be delivered. This is particularly important in
terms of future passenger service specification in northern England,
and future rolling stock strategy.
 

absolutelymilk

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The BCR quote in the new Route Study for North Wales electrification (from Warrington/Crewe) is 0.35, rising to 0.58 if you include socio-economic factors.

Actually the second one is with more services running. Neither BCR includes 'any “wider economic benefits” to the region.' (p. 120)
 

The Informer

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Newport to Shrewsbury put back at least 5 years last time i heard!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The BCR quote in the new Route Study for North Wales electrification (from Warrington/Crewe) is 0.35, rising to 0.58 if you include socio-economic factors.
But still under investigation, as part of the impact of the arrival of HS2 at Crewe.
Line speed increases west of Chester are "good value for money".

The Study is very detailed and has some items of real interest, but still fills me with despair when I read the only intervention planned before 2043 between Shrewsbury and Wrexham is a pair of intermediate block signals at £10m to shorten signal sections.
It also wastes a lot of space debating whether 2 or 5 vehicles (vehicles not trains) should be added to "selected" Cardiff-Manchester trains.
Good luck finding some extra class 175 vehicles.

Looks like an extra platform at Chester is on the cards, to support more services towards Wrexham.
Reversible signalling of P1/2 at Wrexham is also needed.
The "full redouble" debate is still alive, linked to the Halton Curve plans.

I can't find any reference to the line speed increase to 90mph between Shrewsbury and Wrexham.
This was part of the "North South Journey Time Improvements" project which is due for completion this year, but it's all gone very quiet on this.

Some reference to Shrewsbury-Newport resignalling being "under review", with a decision about now.
That sounds like life-extension of the existing kit to me.

The linespeed improvements between Gobowen & Shrewsbury is still on, just a few things need ironing out :oops:
 
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driver_m

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Would the BCR case improve, the more stations that could be added to the routes in NW? Saltney on the Wrexham line and Airbus/Queensferry would surely make good commuter stations into Chester as would a few more stations along the NW coast like Holywell. Considering Chester is very much a regional centre it is very poorly served in the suburbs. Only Bache acting like a true commuter station.
 

craigybagel

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Newport to Shrewsbury put back at least 5 years last time i heard!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


The linespeed improvements between Gobowen & Shrewsbury is still on, just a few things need ironing out :oops:

Indeed we've heard that rumour about the signalling as well, hopefully it's true. They've certainly been recruiting lately for a new signaler at Marshbrook.


Ah, crossed purposes. I'm not talking about just the ATW service between Crewe and Chester, I'm talking about all services using the line between Crewe and Chester including ECS, which averages out to 6tph over the day (or did at the time the number crunching for the Welsh RUS Update was undertaken).

I'm still struggling to see where 6tph comes from. 1 Virgin and 1 ATW per hour is the normal service. There are a number of ECS trains it is true, especially between 0300-0600, but nowhere near enough to get up to 6tph. I doubt the long block section from Crewe steel works to Beeston Castle would even permit 6tph

Is rather strange to have that in a Network Rail document, platforms can't need lenthening since the 175s are really short trains for a route like that.
.

As far as Manchester-Cardiff is concerned most platforms will take 5. Shorter Platforms than that are Nantwich, Wrenbury, Whitchurch (up only), Press, Wem, Yorton, Ludlow (down only), Leominster, Abergavenny (down only).
 
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absolutelymilk

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I'm so struggling to see where 6tph comes from. 1 Virgin and 1 ATW per hour in service. There are a number of ECS trains it is true, especially between 0300-0600, but nowhere near enough to get up to 6tph. I doubt the long block section from Crewe steel works to Beeston Castle would even permit 6tph.

Possibly he meant 6tph in both directions, i.e. 3 tph in each direction.
 
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