A good point, given that I'm sure a lot of those fares aren't set by Northern.
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Northern franchise awarded to Arriva.
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A good point, given that I'm sure a lot of those fares aren't set by Northern.
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This is the temporary uniform that is an adaption of the existing East Coast uniform. Hemingway Design are creating a uniform for Virgin EC+WC launching at the end of this year. Anyway no more posts on that in this thread!
Greybeard33
Established Member
It seems unlikely that the 2tph to Wigan will be EMUs by 2019. Lostock Jn - Wigan electrification delivery date is still TBD in the Hendy Enhancements Delivery Plan March 2016 Update, with an "indicator" date for GRIP 3 completion not until March 2017. There are to be 4tph on the Atherton line (2tph semi-fast) as well as 2tph to Wigan via Westhoughton/Bolton, but I do not think Northern has announced how these will be divvied up between Southport (2tph), Kirkby (1tph) and Wigan (3tph) terminators? Philip's suggestion, that two of the Wigan terminators will run via Bolton and terminate at Stalybridge, would, however, minimise service changes when the electrification is eventually completed.
The franchise agreement specifies only 2tph to Stalybridge, but there will actually be 3tph if both Wigan via Boltons go there as well as the Blackpool stopper EMU. I do not think there will be capacity through Castlefield Junction for any of them to go to Oxford Road and beyond instead, nor platform capacity for termination at Victoria.
The Rochdale service requirement is for 5tph. The Connect services from Bradford to Liverpool, Chester and the Airport account for 3tph, but then there will be 6tph of Commuter DMU services from the west running through Victoria - 4tph from Atherton plus the 2tph from Blackburn via Bolton, so it seems Rochdale will actually get 9tph, even if the east-facing bays at Victoria are no longer used. In addition to the Southport - Bradford, one of the other DMU services from the west will have to continue through Rochdale to Blackburn via the Todmorden Curve - maybe from Wigan Wallgate like today, except via Atherton not Bolton. This would leave 4tph terminating at Rochdale, from Clitheroe, Blackburn via Bolton, Southport and Kirkby.
The franchise agreement specifies 27 services daily (implying 2tph) between Bolton and the Stockport corridor (specifically Levenshulme and Heaton Chapel). It seems likely that one of these will be a Hazel Grove - Preston EMU and that the second will also be an EMU to maximise use of the wires. However, I think it is more likely to be Hazel Grove - Bolton than Crewe, Alderley Edge or Macclesfield - Bolton, considering that there are to be 2tph terminating at Hazel Grove.
So my best guess at the Bolton corridor hourly service pattern from Dec 2019 (changes bolded) is:
1 x TPE EMU Man Airport - Glasgow/Edinburgh (with peak time set down/pick up restrictions)
1 x Northern Connect EMU Man Airport - Blackpool
1 x Northern Commuter EMU Hazel Grove - Preston
1 x Northern Commuter EMU Hazel Grove - Bolton
1 x Northern Commuter EMU Stalybridge - Blackpool
2 x Northern Commuter DMU Stalybridge - Wigan NW
1 x Northern Commuter DMU Rochdale - Clitheroe
1 x Northern Commuter DMU Rochdale - Blackburn
Would it not satisfy all the relevant service requirements, and use fewer resources, to remove Hazel Grove-Bolton and run either the Blackpool stopper or one of the Wigan services to Hazel Grove?
notlob.divad
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Is this the sum total of the Hazel Grove terminating services. The reason I ask is that the redevelopment of Oxford Road seems to remove the only West facing bay platform in Manchester. There is going to have to be somewhere to turn around the 2tph all stations DMUs from Liverpool Lime Street via Warrington Central.
This clearly does not serve the Bolton Corridor, but cannot be turned around at either of the stations without clogging up the Castlefield corridor. Warrington will already have the Connect service running to the Airport and possibly the train from Wales if the North Wales MPS get their way, so I doubt they will send them there. So I am struggling to work out where you would turn these 2tph around. My money was firmly on Hazel Grove, until I found out about the Bolton to Stockport corridor requirements.
Greybeard33
Established Member
Yes, I think you are correct, since, off peak Northern is only required to provide 7tph between Bolton and Manchester and 2tph to Stalybridge. There is a requirement for Bolton to have 8tph in the peak, so there will be some peak extras.
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I expect that the CLC stoppers will be linked with two out of the four hourly DMU services on the Stockport corridor, which will be to Buxton (semi-fast), New Mills Newtown (stopper), Greenbank (stopper) and Chester (semi-fast). I guess which ones are chosen will depend on how the timings and paths can best be matched up.Is this the sum total of the Hazel Grove terminating services. The reason I ask is that the redevelopment of Oxford Road seems to remove the only West facing bay platform in Manchester. There is going to have to be somewhere to turn around the 2tph all stations DMUs from Liverpool Lime Street via Warrington Central.
This clearly does not serve the Bolton Corridor, but cannot be turned around at either of the stations without clogging up the Castlefield corridor. Warrington will already have the Connect service running to the Airport and possibly the train from Wales if the North Wales MPS get their way, so I doubt they will send them there. So I am struggling to work out where you would turn these 2tph around. My money was firmly on Hazel Grove, until I found out about the Bolton to Stockport corridor requirements.
notlob.divad
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New Mills would be the best one from the franchise requirements, There are 3 tph Manchester - New Mills with only one continuing over the Hope Valley line. So 1tph Piccadilly - Sheffield and 2tph Liverpool - New Mills. But this suffers from the problem the Chord is being built to avoid, and that is crossing every single track between Piccadilly and Ardwick.
Liverpool-Buxton (even semi-fast beyond Manchester) is a pretty long way to send an all stops service.
Liverpool/Warrington to Chester via Manchester would be an interesting one. I am not sure that is what the residents and MPs of Chester had in mind when they wanted better connections to Liverpool wrt to Halton Curve
and Greenbank would be similar loopy route through Manchester. I appreciate with all stops commuter services End to End journeys are rare, but these two do seem rather peculiar. In the end it might be all they have left.And therefore won't be part of the new service pattern.
Greybeard33
Established Member
I think you are confusing New Mills Newtown, which is on the Buxton line, with New Mills Central, which is on the Marple-Chinley line. New Mills Newtown is getting a new hourly service from Manchester via Stockport and Hazel Grove from Dec 2017 to give 2tph, together with the existing 1tph to Buxton. From the same date Greenbank is getting a new hourly service from Manchester via Stockport, which, together with the hourly Chester via Stockport, will give 2tph at Northwich, Knutsford, Hale and Altrincham.
The paths for these extra services become available because the TPE Liverpool-Scarborough will be running via Victoria and the Chat Moss instead of crossing Piccadilly throat to get to the CLC.
notlob.divad
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Agreed. Whilst this may perfectly fit the franchise requirements in terms of trains per hour to each location, there is no way these can run across the Piccadilly throat.
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That I am thank you for the clarification.
I believe arriva intend to run the 2nd train an hour to New Mills Newtown to Buxton anyhow which is above the franchise requirement off peak.
Serco /Abellio were only required to run one train an hour to New Mills Ctl. They ran 2 because otherwise they would of had a unit sat there for 1 hr 50 min every 2 hours. So there was a strong business case for it. On Saturdays when there is an hourly service to Sheffield, New Mills Central only has an hourly service. Arriva will be running an hourly service to Sheffield from 2017. Does anyone know if the service to NMC will be halved as a result? Is it now a franchise requirement for 2 trains per hour to NMC? Or will Arriva get away with saying there's an extra service from NMC instead.
Serco /Abellio were only required to run one train an hour to New Mills Ctl. They ran 2 because otherwise they would of had a unit sat there for 1 hr 50 min every 2 hours. So there was a strong business case for it. On Saturdays when there is an hourly service to Sheffield, New Mills Central only has an hourly service. Arriva will be running an hourly service to Sheffield from 2017. Does anyone know if the service to NMC will be halved as a result? Is it now a franchise requirement for 2 trains per hour to NMC? Or will Arriva get away with saying there's an extra service from NMC instead.
Paul Kelly
Verified Rep - BR Fares
Personally I don't think that's very likely - when I read about that in the supplement to last week's RAIL magazine what immediately came to mind is that they will rename Anytime Returns to Off-Peak Returns, put on morning peak restrictions, and add new higher-priced Anytime Returns. In fact I would be very very surprised if that isn't what happens. It will be very confusing though, to have Off-Peak Returns with no afternoon peak restrictions (fares regulation wouldn't allow that) but Off-Peak Day Returns with afternoon peak restrictions (which the RAIL article also confirmed they're going to keep). Lots of backdoor fare rises and a big increase in complexity is what I envisage happening.
I'm not sure what exactly what you're trying to say. 2tph to New Mills Newton off-peak is required, 2tph to Buxton is not. Arriva were required to run 3tph to Hazel Grove but they decided on 4tph which has been included in the revised service level documents: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/northern-rail-2016-rail-franchise-agreement
scotsman
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The only things missing from the old East Coast uniform are the purple shirts and blue/purple/pink ties. All the rest is the same, albeit without any prominent EC branding
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
I fear that you have posted this on the wrong thread. We are not discussing any East Coast uniforms on this thread.
This thread is....."Northern franchise awarded to Arriva"
There might be some truth in this, as I gather a reversal at Furness Vale (the next crossover after New Mills Newton) involves an unsignalled move over the level crossing, hardly something you'd expect to happen hourly on a daily basis. Unless NR upgrade the signalling...
Philip
On Moderation
Just a question about the Barrow NC service, would it not have made more sense to have run this as part of one of the Atherton line semi-fasts, the one that is supposed to terminate at Wigan? Then run a 4-car EMU shuttle between Wigan and the Airport via Chat Moss. Just seems more resourceful by running it as part of an already diesel service, rather than using an extra DMU over a mainly electrified route as the planned Chat Moss route is. What's more, does it really need to be part of the Connect services? If 195s are going to be stretched with some as 2-car services, why not run paired 156s or 158s for the Barrow service?
Greybeard33
Established Member
The franchise agreement specifies 2tph off peak to New Mills Central (and Marple) from Dec 2017, 7 days a week. For New Mills Newtown 2tph Mon-Sat, 1tph Sun.
Class 170101
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Three levels of fares similar to here in London.
Anytime, Off Peak and Super Off Peak.
WatcherZero
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They are required to operate one fast from Wigan to Manchester per hour, they also take over the Barrow and Windermere obligation which combined make an hourly service, therefore combining it with the Wigan portion halves the rolling stock requirement.
They could have done Atherton over Chat Moss but that would have required the service to be a stopper taking up to 50 minutes from Wigan to Manchester rather than 30 minutes and likely would have had to be at least 2x23m carriages longer so as not to be too overcrowded. The Atherton line doesn't have the signalling/passing loops to support non stop, semi-fasts have been traditionally managed by setting a limited stopper off directly in front of a stopper.
As to why its a Northern Connect service I think its perfectly arguable that a national holiday resort like the Lake District and the second largest population centre in Cumbria on journeys of 2 hour duration could expect a reasonable degree of comfort.
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Whistler40145
Established Member
I agree with you regarding Windermere.
notlob.divad
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It is a northern 'connect' service, because they didn't want to downgrade it from the previously TPE operated service.
Similarly the Liverpool- Manchester Airport Via Warrington. The reason that will be branded a 'connect' service is that currently the Liverpool-Scarborough service runs semi-fast, and with that service switching to Chat Moss an equivalent was required via Warrington.
Similarly the Liverpool- Manchester Airport Via Warrington. The reason that will be branded a 'connect' service is that currently the Liverpool-Scarborough service runs semi-fast, and with that service switching to Chat Moss an equivalent was required via Warrington.
HMS Ark Royal
Established Member
Had to go to Manchester with my mother today - Noticed that the "Sticky Tape Gang" have missed the flying N logo on one of the travel info pods on Piccadilly... Its the one nearest to the lift that takes you to the eastbound platform at Piccadilly (Metrolink)
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
Not on all routes though. Not to mention the lack of off-peak singles which I hope will change.
BurtonM
Member
Will the hole in the Manchester bound Sunday timetable at Marple thus be fixed? At the moment there are hourly trains at xx11 (it's 11 if memory serves) but not 1511 for some reason.
It's not been revised between the ITT and the franchise agreement, unlike running the additional Northwich service to Greenbank has or 4tph to Hazel Grove so I don't think Arriva included 2tph to Buxton in their bid but that's not to say they aren't considering it.
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Not always e.g. http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=KNF&dest=SYB (Northern are the faresetter and there's no off-peak tickets at all.)
I think we need a lot more detail about Northern's plans. For instance this is a journey which can only be made by Northern+Merseyrail: http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=KNF&dest=BKQ Yet the fare setter is EMT and there's an Off-Peak Return, an Anytime Day Return and an Anytime Day Single but no Off-Peak Day Return and no Off-Peak Day Single. Will any of that change?
All Line Rover
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The simple solution would be to rename 'Off-Peak Day Returns' to 'Super Off-Peak Day Returns'. As long as the outward journey restriction is no less restrictive than the outward restriction on Off-Peak Returns, it would be easy for passengers to understand that Super Off-Peak Day Returns are the cheapest ticket type because: (i) the outward and return journeys must be made on the same day; (ii) time restrictions apply to the return journey; and (iii) time restrictions may be more restrictive for the outward journey.
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hairyhandedfool
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There's still a few Northern Rail logo's around Piccadilly station.
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