What to do when doors wont open

lineclear said:

I normally run to another door when this happens, but if you end up being overcarried then a complaint to the guard should get your ticket endorsed for travel back from the next station.

If there are no more trains, or there isn't one for ages, the TOC should arrange a taxi.

I'd also claim delay repay if I was overcarried.

Incidentally, no platform should be foul of opening doors!

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Stick to Yorkshire son. SWT don't do delay repay.

Not sure how relevant this is to this thread, but a few years back I think I found a flaw in the door control logic of Class 158s.

Running into Church Stretton station from the Hereford direction I walked into the front vestibule (right behind the driver's cab) in order to alight. There was a young chap in front of me. Train stopped and he pushed the open button as soon as it lit up. Doors popped open about 3-4 inches apart and promptly slammed shut again. He mashed the button (what a wonderful turn of phrase I've picked up from this forum...) but then the two buzzes could be heard in the cab and we were on our way to Shrewsbury.

The guard was very apologetic, saying that there was nobody on the platform waiting to board. Certainly, he was way too hasty but surely the real problem was a lack of Magnus Magnusson logic ("I've started so I'll finish") in the door control system? Although the doors were in the process of opening, they were not open enough for the system to think that they were open (if you see what I mean!) and therefore sound the hustle alarm prior to closing them again.

Has anybody else come across this, and does it happen on other units?

satisnek said:

Certainly, he was way too hasty but surely the real problem was a lack of Magnus Magnusson logic ("I've started so I'll finish") in the door control system? Although the doors were in the process of opening, they were not open enough for the system to think that they were open (if you see what I mean!) and therefore sound the hustle alarm prior to closing them again.

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By the same token, if the guard was to accidentally release wrong side, would you rather that passengers could open the doors and step out, or that they should close again as soon as the guard realised his mistake?

I know that it's unlikely to happen due to the guard checking from his local door, but let's ignore that for a moment.

satisnek said:

Not sure how relevant this is to this thread, but a few years back I think I found a flaw in the door control logic of Class 158s.

Running into Church Stretton station from the Hereford direction I walked into the front vestibule (right behind the driver's cab) in order to alight. There was a young chap in front of me. Train stopped and he pushed the open button as soon as it lit up. Doors popped open about 3-4 inches apart and promptly slammed shut again. He mashed the button (what a wonderful turn of phrase I've picked up from this forum...) but then the two buzzes could be heard in the cab and we were on our way to Shrewsbury.

The guard was very apologetic, saying that there was nobody on the platform waiting to board. Certainly, he was way too hasty but surely the real problem was a lack of Magnus Magnusson logic ("I've started so I'll finish") in the door control system? Although the doors were in the process of opening, they were not open enough for the system to think that they were open (if you see what I mean!) and therefore sound the hustle alarm prior to closing them again.

Has anybody else come across this, and does it happen on other units?

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It happens occasionally on the GWR 158s - the doors open a few inches and then seem to jam/get stuck. A gentle push/nudge usually helps them, though!

satisnek said:

Not sure how relevant this is to this thread, but a few years back I think I found a flaw in the door control logic of Class 158s.

Running into Church Stretton station from the Hereford direction I walked into the front vestibule (right behind the driver's cab) in order to alight. There was a young chap in front of me. Train stopped and he pushed the open button as soon as it lit up. Doors popped open about 3-4 inches apart and promptly slammed shut again. He mashed the button (what a wonderful turn of phrase I've picked up from this forum...) but then the two buzzes could be heard in the cab and we were on our way to Shrewsbury.

The guard was very apologetic, saying that there was nobody on the platform waiting to board. Certainly, he was way too hasty but surely the real problem was a lack of Magnus Magnusson logic ("I've started so I'll finish") in the door control system? Although the doors were in the process of opening, they were not open enough for the system to think that they were open (if you see what I mean!) and therefore sound the hustle alarm prior to closing them again.

Has anybody else come across this, and does it happen on other units?

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Are the doors on 158s/159s air powered or electric?

158 doors are air operated by an electrical control system. They're not the best and can behave in a somewhat unpredictable manner. As an example there's variation between units as to how they behave if the guard puts the door release back up when they're closing for some reason. On some units the doors jump back open, on others they will still shut but remain energised to be opened by the buttons again.

satisnek said:

Not sure how relevant this is to this thread, but a few years back I think I found a flaw in the door control logic of Class 158s.

Running into Church Stretton station from the Hereford direction I walked into the front vestibule (right behind the driver's cab) in order to alight. There was a young chap in front of me. Train stopped and he pushed the open button as soon as it lit up. Doors popped open about 3-4 inches apart and promptly slammed shut again. He mashed the button (what a wonderful turn of phrase I've picked up from this forum...) but then the two buzzes could be heard in the cab and we were on our way to Shrewsbury.

The guard was very apologetic, saying that there was nobody on the platform waiting to board. Certainly, he was way too hasty but surely the real problem was a lack of Magnus Magnusson logic ("I've started so I'll finish") in the door control system? Although the doors were in the process of opening, they were not open enough for the system to think that they were open (if you see what I mean!) and therefore sound the hustle alarm prior to closing them again.

Has anybody else come across this, and does it happen on other units?

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See the RAIB website for something very similar on a Networker at West Wickham, which led to a passenger being trapped in the door.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/raib-investigation-reports-2016

satisnek said:

Has anybody else come across this, and does it happen on other units?

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Yes, and it caused quite a serious accident (life changing injuries I think) when it did.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
FWIW I had this problem on SBB hauled stock a couple of days ago - doors were released, the handle (it's a physical one) pulled, but no amount of kicking actually opened the door. This affected both doors on a vehicle that had had them open at the previous stop. Just about managed to make it through to the next one to exit.

I *think* it was probably because of the curious modification SBB have done to their stock, though I hadn't come across it before on power-door stock, whereby when the train is moving at over 5km/h closure pressure[1] is applied periodically (about once every minute or so) and takes time to leak away and render the door openable again. If this happens just before the train drops below 5km/h, it can leave that vehicle with doors locked for an extra minute or so. This feature seems to act as mitigation against SBB's unsafe departure procedure (no feedback of closed doors before departure) which does sometimes result in trains going out with doors open.

[1] The UIC type door mechanism has two locks - "door blocking" which kicks in over 5km/h and mechanically disconnects the inside handle (older stock)/deactivates the inside button (newer stock), and "closure pressure" which, on the guard turning his key, applies air pressure to close all doors on both sides. This then slowly leaks away (older type doors) or runs a timer (newer type doors), before which the door cannot be opened from inside or outside.

Run to another door, or bite the bullet and claim the refund and taxi fare.

edwin_m said:

Presumably "at an angle" means that the track is canted away from the platform so a door would have to open "uphill", not that the door is actually going to foul the platform. This is noticeable on the old slam doors but modern power doors should be able to cope without any problem. Do we know what type of train it was?

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Ah... never realised that was it. I have noticed the 444's need a bit of a kick now and then, but now I think about it I've only ever had to do this on platform 2 @ Brockenhurst where there is a bit of a curve.

Most people do figure out that it needs some help but there has been a couple of times someone's just stood there expecting it to open eventually.

lj9090 said:

Ah... never realised that was it. I have noticed the 444's need a bit of a kick now and then, but now I think about it I've only ever had to do this on platform 2 @ Brockenhurst where there is a bit of a curve.

Most people do figure out that it needs some help but there has been a couple of times someone's just stood there expecting it to open eventually.

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You should be able to tell if the train is leaning over when standing at the platform, with the platform side a few inches higher than the other one.

Thanks for the replies; it wasn't just a one-off then. That West Wickham accident was horrendous, I shudder to think what 'life changing injuries' actually were.

Scott M said:

Run to another door, or bite the bullet and claim the refund and taxi fare.

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Won't get delay repay on SW, they don't do it for delays under an hour, you get a taxi off your own back then it's unlikely that you'll get reimbursed.

Taxis are only and usually supplied by SW during times of significant disruption and when the last train to a station has departed or a flight from either Gatwick or Heathrow is in jeopardy,sometimes they do it for Eurostar too.

kimflop said:

Personally, i would run to another door.

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Yeah, I've did that a few times. Once the door is open, the driver won't go.

bAzTNM said:

Once the door is open, the driver won't go.

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On most stock, "can't go" would be closer to the truth.