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Land Rover driver blocks a bus

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SCH117X

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Reversing example - Transdev Harrogates Route 24 reverses at Birstwith on the public highway with passengers aboard 26 times Mon-Fri and 24 times Sat.
 
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Busaholic

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This is, as of this afternoon, not a theoretical question - if two fully-laden buses meet head-on on a single track road, who has the priority? And, more to the point, how is the situation resolved without one of the buses reversing?

Penzance had its annual Running Day today, where twenty or so vintage buses run services to places within ten to fifteen miles of Pz. One such service was to St Just, which utilised the coast road between St Just and Morvah, mostly two-lane but with single track sections of up to about half or threequarters of a mile. The inevitable happened, and the Routemaster I was travelling on with about sixty other passengers met a Bristol VR, with each about 300 yards from their nearest safe backing space. I'm not sure how negotiations were conducted, but the result was that VR and three cars behind it had to back those 300 yards, despite our RM (a) having a conductor to help and (b) not having following traffic.

Perhaps the added age of the RM counted, though I would dispute any 'age before beauty' jibe. Anyway, no passengers were inconvenienced, and the Running Day was a huge success. I have a feeling the timetable will be tweeked a little next year, though!
 

Teflon Lettuce

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This is, as of this afternoon, not a theoretical question - if two fully-laden buses meet head-on on a single track road, who has the priority? And, more to the point, how is the situation resolved without one of the buses reversing?

Penzance had its annual Running Day today, where twenty or so vintage buses run services to places within ten to fifteen miles of Pz. One such service was to St Just, which utilised the coast road between St Just and Morvah, mostly two-lane but with single track sections of up to about half or threequarters of a mile. The inevitable happened, and the Routemaster I was travelling on with about sixty other passengers met a Bristol VR, with each about 300 yards from their nearest safe backing space. I'm not sure how negotiations were conducted, but the result was that VR and three cars behind it had to back those 300 yards, despite our RM (a) having a conductor to help and (b) not having following traffic.

Perhaps the added age of the RM counted, though I would dispute any 'age before beauty' jibe. Anyway, no passengers were inconvenienced, and the Running Day was a huge success. I have a feeling the timetable will be tweeked a little next year, though!

well if nothing else that sound like either bad planning, bad communication or bad adherence to instruction ( or a combination)... ALL routes I have worked where there is a likelihood of 2 buses passing on a narrow section there has always been a strict instruction to wait in a certain safe place until you have passed each other!

in any case your example doesn't prove anything about the law... as you state the RM had a conductor aboard... so having a "company official" aboard should have been the one to reverse... especially seeing as though he didn't have following traffic!
 
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Reversing example - Transdev Harrogates Route 24 reverses at Birstwith on the public highway with passengers aboard 26 times Mon-Fri and 24 times Sat.


Stagecoach East Midland/Gem 95/195 Retford to Gainsborough reverses at South Leverton, Habblesthorpe & Bole. So three times on a single journey and it runs 6 times a day. This is, or part is, a council tender and two of the three reverses have been introduced following route changes over the last decade.
 

Busaholic

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well if nothing else that sound like either bad planning, bad communication or bad adherence to instruction ( or a combination)... ALL routes I have worked where there is a likelihood of 2 buses passing on a narrow section there has always been a strict instruction to wait in a certain safe place until you have passed each other!

in any case your example doesn't prove anything about the law... as you state the RM had a conductor aboard... so having a "company official" aboard should have been the one to reverse... especially seeing as though he didn't have following traffic!

It happens to a lesser extent in Marazion, east of Penzance, all the time, but especially in the summer when there are a few extra journeys per day. You'd think on a basically hourly service you could avoid having two buses on the same route meet each other in places where they can just squeeze past each other, assuming you've got drivers who accept that you might just have to crawl up on to the narrow pavement, but the timetables show that it's all scheduled.
 
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Teflon Lettuce

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It happens to a lesser extent in Marazion, east of Penzance, all the time, but especially in the summer when there are a few extra journeys per day. You'd think on a basically hourly service you could avoid having two buses on the same route meet each other in places where they can just squeeze past each other, assuming you've got drivers who accept that you might just have to crawl up on to the narrow pavement, but the timetables show that it's all scheduled.

well tbh IMHO if the scheduler is scheduling 2 buses to pass along a road where they cannot get past each other at the same time then said scheduler is totally incompetent and should be sacked.
 

90019

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I WAS ASKED ABOUT THIS VERY LEGISLATION ON MY PSV TEST!

When did you take your test?
As mentioned in post 31, the Conduct of Drivers Conductors and Passengers act 1936 was revoked.

Also, it's PCV - it hasn't been PSV for a driver's licence since 1992. PSV is used to refer to an operators licence nowadays.
 
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Teflon Lettuce

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When did you take your test?
As mentioned in post 31, the Conduct of Drivers Conductors and Passengers act 1936 was revoked in 1990.

Also, it's PCV - it hasn't been PSV for a driver's licence since 1992. PSV is used to refer to an operators licence nowadays.

I took my test in 1995... and please don't join the pedant brigade I KNOW that my PSV is now referred to officially as a PCV but like a majority of drivers I still call it a PSV if asked what licences I hold....

as to the Conduct of Drivers Conductors and Passengers Act being revoked I don't think it can have been... amended yes, superceded maybe... but revoked?

so now I have to allow alcohol on board? allow fish and chips on board? allow passengers to ride on the platform?
 

90019

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Have you actually read quarellas post?
There's even a quote from the document linked to, which is revoking The Public Service Vehicles (Conduct of Drivers, Conductors and Passengers) Regulations 1936 and the amendments of 1946, 1975 and 1980.

Driving examiners aren't infallible, like all humans they make mistakes, so I wouldn't treat everything they say as gospel.
Curiously though, when I took my test in 2012, there was no mention anywhere about it being illegal to reverse a service bus with passengers on.

I also have to take issue with your assertion earlier in the thread that it is "highly DANGEROUS" to reverse a bus with passengers on board*. I have done this plenty of times over the past four years, and have never found it to be a particularly dangerous thing to do so long as you are sensible about it. I'd even say it's a bit easier and less dangerous than reversing an HGV, since you have much better visibility, with lots more windows to see out of.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
*Source:
Put quite simply it is not only illegal to reverse a bus with passengers on it is highly DANGEROUS as well
 
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HMS Ark Royal

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I was on the Farewell Olympians tour using the last two operational Volvo Olympians in EYMS service and they reversed many times on the public roads. I questioned if they were allowed to do this, and both drivers replied that there was no law stopping them. Indeed, they reversed with the chairman of the company onboard who never questioned his drivers
 

SpacePhoenix

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Put quite simply it is not only illegal to reverse a bus with passengers on it is highly DANGEROUS as well, especially in tight confined situations such as on twisty single track roads...

Think I might have to call bull.... on that, locally there used to be a bus route that run for many years and part of it involved reversing, with passengers on. I wouldn't be surprised if other forum members also know of places where buses have to reverse as part of their route where it's not in a bus station
 

HMS Ark Royal

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Think I might have to call bull.... on that, locally there used to be a bus route that run for many years and part of it involved reversing, with passengers on. I wouldn't be surprised if other forum members also know of places where buses have to reverse as part of their route where it's not in a bus station

Used to happen all the time on the old X21 route between Hull and Grimsby at Barton Main Street
 

Busaholic

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Think I might have to call bull.... on that, locally there used to be a bus route that run for many years and part of it involved reversing, with passengers on. I wouldn't be surprised if other forum members also know of places where buses have to reverse as part of their route where it's not in a bus station

There was a thread on this a few months ago, and I seem to remember there were at least a couple of dozen current examples given of where buses regularly reverse with passengers on board, so, as someone who's never driven a bus, I would take it the practice is not illegal, otherwise surely the Traffic Commissioners would not allow it? I certainly know of one example in my area of Cornwall.
 

Teflon Lettuce

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I'm going to leave this thread now... it appears that everyone is just picking a few words that suit their purpose to attack my views... I have stated what I think the law says about reversing and why, I have also stated how exceptions to that rule came about. I stand by my views until someone who has real legal knowledge tells me otherwise.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I also have to take issue with your assertion earlier in the thread that it is "highly DANGEROUS" to reverse a bus with passengers on board*.
try seeing what's directly behind you on an Optare Solo for example....
 

Zoidberg

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I'm going to leave this thread now... it appears that everyone is just picking a few words that suit their purpose to attack my views... I have stated what I think the law says about reversing and why, I have also stated how exceptions to that rule came about. I stand by my views until someone who has real legal knowledge tells me otherwise.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

try seeing what's directly behind you on an Optare Solo for example....

What you think the law says has no relevance.

The law is what the law is.
 
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90019

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try seeing what's directly behind you on an Optare Solo for example....

Have you tried seeing what's directly behind you when driving a lorry? Yet they reverse all the time.

A Solo isn't much worse than an Eclipse Urban, where the only thing visible out of the rear window is the sky, but I've reversed those many times with passengers on, and until recently also had a terminus that required reversing into.
 

Tackleberry

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Have you tried seeing what's directly behind you when driving a lorry? Yet they reverse all the time.

A Solo isn't much worse than an Eclipse Urban, where the only thing visible out of the rear window is the sky, but I've reversed those many times with passengers on, and until recently also had a terminus that required reversing into.

image.jpg

Like this you mean and it's not a good photo as I was waiting for a container to be loaded but you get the gist...
 

duncombec

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I'm going to leave this thread now... it appears that everyone is just picking a few words that suit their purpose to attack my views... I have stated what I think the law says about reversing and why, I have also stated how exceptions to that rule came about. I stand by my views until someone who has real legal knowledge tells me otherwise.

Interesting, considering you seem to be picking the words of others and then disputing them because they don't match what you "think".

It has been proven that the 1936 act has been revoked. According to a simple Google search, in England/Wales and Ireland, revoke and repeal have all but the same meaning. Quarella's post (#31, I believe) links to the Public Service Vehicles (Conduct of Drivers, Inspectors, Conductors and Passengers) Regulations 1990, of which section 2 states quite clearly that the acts listed in Schedule 2 are revoked, and the The Public Service Vehicles (Conduct of Drivers, Conductors and Passengers) Regulations 1936 is one of those listed.

so now I have to allow alcohol on board? allow fish and chips on board? allow passengers to ride on the platform?

No. Alcohol is covered by whatever section is listed in the first few pages of every N&P (SEMTA, Eastern & Western, at least) - can't be bothered to check. Passengers on the platform is covered in section 6 (1) (j) - it's rather too long to quote in full:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1990/1020/regulation/6/made

Finally, when registering a bus service, operators are required to state whether any turning or reversing manoeuvre is required, in section 13 of form PSV350:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ation_to_Register_a_Bus_Service_-_PSV_350.pdf

If, as you suggest, it was illegal, then why would the TC's office accept the registration? Countless suggestions from countless companies have been listed here and elsewhere - Stagecoach East Kent have at least three routes with reversing manoevures - Service 1 Canterbury-Ashford (which has, or at least had, two!), Service 11 Canterbury - Ramsgate, and Service 36 (Herne Bay - Margate (currently also to Canterbury, but due to change), where SEK own the land required for turning at Reculver for that very purpose.

Are you really suggesting that all of these companies are hiding an illegal turn from the TC's, or that every TC in the country is willfully failing to enforce the law? I doubt it.
 

Tetchytyke

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Are you really suggesting that all of these companies are hiding an illegal turn from the TC's, or that every TC in the country is willfully failing to enforce the law? I doubt it.

I think it is one of those myths, like not being allowed to carry standing passengers on motorways, that have been spread so far and so wide by so many people that everyone believes it must be the law.
 

brompton rail

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Have you actually read quarellas post?
There's even a quote from the document linked to, which is revoking The Public Service Vehicles (Conduct of Drivers, Conductors and Passengers) Regulations 1936 and the amendments of 1946, 1975 and 1980.

Driving examiners aren't infallible, like all humans they make mistakes, so I wouldn't treat everything they say as gospel.
Curiously though, when I took my test in 2012, there was no mention anywhere about it being illegal to reverse a service bus with passengers on.

I also have to take issue with your assertion earlier in the thread that it is "highly DANGEROUS" to reverse a bus with passengers on board*. I have done this plenty of times over the past four years, and have never found it to be a particularly dangerous thing to do so long as you are sensible about it. I'd even say it's a bit easier and less dangerous than reversing an HGV, since you have much better visibility, with lots more windows to see out of.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
*Source:

Reversing a bus with passengers on is illegal? Ugh?
Well ....... Derby Bus Station, Barnsley Bus Station, St Andrews Square Edinburgh, Matlock Bus Station .... are amongst the many 'hot spots of illegality' in the UK!
 

pompeyfan

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Reversing a bus with passengers on is illegal? Ugh?
Well ....... Derby Bus Station, Barnsley Bus Station, St Andrews Square Edinburgh, Matlock Bus Station .... are amongst the many 'hot spots of illegality' in the UK!

The original argument to that was that bus stations are monitored by inspectors and are also private land. The argument was whether reversing on the public highway was illegal, which has been proven to be not illegal, however, reversing on the public highway in a location which has not been risk assessed without a qualified banks person is usually strictly forbidden under company policy as it COULD easily result in damage or injury to objects or persons you haven't seen.

Personally, I think articulated lorrys and the like which reverse into tight roads to deliver to convince stores etc(with great skill may I add) pose more of a threat to stupid and impatient pedestrians because once the cab is at 90• you can only see what's out your window. Your mirrors become useless.
 

GatwickDepress

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Reversing a bus with passengers on is illegal? Ugh?
Well ....... Derby Bus Station, Barnsley Bus Station, St Andrews Square Edinburgh, Matlock Bus Station .... are amongst the many 'hot spots of illegality' in the UK!
Hastings station, Bletchley bus station... heck, a 14 I was on the other day turned down the wrong street and had to reverse out! Guess I should have 'phoned the traffic police!
 

ECML180

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I think all scheduled bus drivers (particularly from the bigger companies) should have a day out with school bus drivers at independent firms. The places the schoolbuses (and in many cases tour coaches on private hires) have to go, especially with the ignorant mix of apathy and aggression from parents has to be seen to be believed! Some of the places I've been to (including tourist attractions) can only be accessed by driving along pavements or by reversing around corners due to badly parked cars - it's already difficult enough without the ones who won't wait in a safe passing place!
 

DJ_K666

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as a bus driver driving deep rural routes I can sadly confirm that this sort of event is all too common.... it never ceases to amaze me how often a car driver comes hurtling round the bend at 40-50 mph, slams on his anchors when confronted by my bus and then looks at me as if to say "what you gonna do now mate" my answer is simple... if you want to wait for my boss to send someone out to guide me back then I'm happy to reverse... after all the regulations are perfectly clear.

1. you should travel at a speed at which you can safely stop within the distance you can see (hence why buses tend to drive at no more than 20mph on twisty single track roads)

2. it is illegal for a bus to reverse on the public highway with passengers aboard without a company official to guide them.

strangely enough on certain runs at rush hour you tend to meet the same cars driven by the same drivers at the same corners every day with the same gormless look on their face "oh my god it's a bus"


As one bus driver to another, you know the drill.

Engine off,
Hazards on,
Paper out,
Feet up on dash
Start reading
Have a ready answer for when they try and tell you to reverse.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The bit about reversing without a qualified banks person is a myth, it is company policy by many operators but not law. I have 3 separate routes where I have to reverse without assistance and it's been cleared by union etc, one of them is a route run under contract to the City Council, so I would think they would not wish to break the law. These are not at bus stations either, they are cul - de - sacs.

My favourite line, when caught in a stand off (which sometimes is my fault for having a brain fart and not reading the road correctly, and sometimes is the other persons fault) is to apologise and say that there's a problem with the bus and it won't go into reverse, if they question I say it's on it's way back to the depot to be hit. Works most of the time!

There is a section on the route registration form which asks for details of any place a bus may have to reverse without a banksman. We have a terminus at Steyning where this is so. I believe there are only two places on our whole network where this is the case
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
so now I have to allow alcohol on board? allow fish and chips on board? allow passengers to ride on the platform?

All stuff I won't allow. The only alcohol allowed on my bus is that hand rub stuff. I also don't allow kids to take those metal scooters upstairs. You just know what they'll end up doing...
 
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mic

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i have travelled on the bus from st ives to Lands end and that road is quite narrow and you get cars comming towards bus at silly speeds and they have to slam brakes on
 

GB

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another common practice of car drivers is to patiently sit behind a bus whilst it is loading/ unloading passengers but the the INSTANT the doors close and the buses' right hand indicator goes on they just HAVE to swerve round the bus to be in front... NO MATTER HOW DANGEROUS AND NO MATTER WHAT IS COMING TOWARDS THEM!

This maybe true of many car drivers, but in the same vain there are also a few bus drivers that need to be taught that the maneuver comes after the signal, not before or during.
 

SCH117X

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This maybe true of many car drivers, but in the same vain there are also a few bus drivers that need to be taught that the maneuver comes after the signal, not before or during.

Unfortunately their are a few bad drivers about who shame the rest, the worst example I saw was a driver who may have indicated to pull out of a bus stop lay by which is immediately round a bend, the consequence of this is drivers have to wait for a gap in the traffic. Not this driver who shot forward bouncing the bus onto the pavement whilst presumably scaring s**tless the driver of a Micra who was passing by.
 

pompeyfan

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While I agree some drivers do just barge out, some road users think that straightening up is forcing their way out. Sometimes it's not possible to get completely parallel to the stop (parked cars, street furniture, excess camber (none of which would be the concern of anyone else)) and hence the back of the bus completely obscures the road behind. There's s video floating about someone demonstrating exactly that as a bus driver has to straighten up an optare solo. If anyone can post a link that would be great.
 

Robertj21a

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Can't really see what the point is. Buses reverse, on public roads, with passengers on, all over the UK every day. I gather some people still won't accept that it's legal.
 
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