A ticket can be marked, but that in no way cancels it.
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What is the point of : Buying a ticket
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No. The question is asked based purely on the perspective of the passenger, i.e. why pay for something if you can get it for free, not the moral/ethical considerations.
Bletchleyite
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thenorthern
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Aren't they introducing ticket barriers at Euston which will stop people traveling without a ticket?
Blindtraveler
Established Member
I could have gone from Scotlamd to Blackpool and back this week and only paid for a quarter of it due to lack of checks but of course wouldnt have traveled ticketless unless there was a very good reason. My message to all those who do wrisk it is to expect all the sympathy of an angry dog when your caught and delt with and also dont come moaning to me when the TOC you use is a no groth one with no means of iether getting new trains or superficially tarting up the current ones.
I always travel with a ticket, but on Thursday night I made the journey from Leeds to St Albans City (Changing in London), and I didn't have my ticket checked once, or have to put it through any barrier!
First time in a while that has happened.
First time in a while that has happened.
ah-media
Member
I understand the point of the OP, but I have a slightly different slant on this.
What is the point of a ticket in the sense of a small piece of cardboard with funny bits of text all over the front?
I spend 95% of my time around London just use my <insert bank here> credit card with <insert perk here> which is linked to my business account.
No fuss - if the DLR want to check it, they just tap my wallet.. simples.
I would love to be able to tap in at Euston and tap out at Manchester Piccadilly the same way I do from Euston to Piccadilly Circus. It amazes me as someone who works in FINTECH that the rail industry is so far behind the curve in the way tickets are used.
What is the point of a ticket in the sense of a small piece of cardboard with funny bits of text all over the front?
I spend 95% of my time around London just use my <insert bank here> credit card with <insert perk here> which is linked to my business account.
No fuss - if the DLR want to check it, they just tap my wallet.. simples.
I would love to be able to tap in at Euston and tap out at Manchester Piccadilly the same way I do from Euston to Piccadilly Circus. It amazes me as someone who works in FINTECH that the rail industry is so far behind the curve in the way tickets are used.
Do you know in advance whether your ticket is going to be checked?
Baxenden Bank
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I've travelled in and around London three times this month.
On each occasion the ticket barriers were in use at Stoke-on-Trent on the outward journey (0912), and tickets were checked shortly after departure from Stoke (non-stop to Euston service). So a ticket was necessary (Although exit from Euston was not checked).
On the return journeys, on each occasion, the barriers at Euston were open and unmanned (1820 x 2 or 2100 x 1), no ticket checks took place on the train, and the barriers were open and unmanned on arrival at Stoke. So a ticket was 'not necessary' from that point of view.
In London, travelling in the suburbs on National Rail lines, I could have travelled for free without touching in / out on Oyster as there were no barriers or ticket checks.
Some people assume any behaviour is acceptable, regardless of the law, as long as you don't get caught. Fletcher in Porridge, being 'an habitual criminal who regards prison as an occupational hazard' being a good example. Others (me included) believe that you should always pay for the goods / services that you use / receive, regardless of whether anyone is likely to check up on you. Always assume you will be checked. As stated above, you only need to get caught once without a ticket without a reasonable reason to pretty much ruin your life.
On each occasion the ticket barriers were in use at Stoke-on-Trent on the outward journey (0912), and tickets were checked shortly after departure from Stoke (non-stop to Euston service). So a ticket was necessary (Although exit from Euston was not checked).
On the return journeys, on each occasion, the barriers at Euston were open and unmanned (1820 x 2 or 2100 x 1), no ticket checks took place on the train, and the barriers were open and unmanned on arrival at Stoke. So a ticket was 'not necessary' from that point of view.
In London, travelling in the suburbs on National Rail lines, I could have travelled for free without touching in / out on Oyster as there were no barriers or ticket checks.
Some people assume any behaviour is acceptable, regardless of the law, as long as you don't get caught. Fletcher in Porridge, being 'an habitual criminal who regards prison as an occupational hazard' being a good example. Others (me included) believe that you should always pay for the goods / services that you use / receive, regardless of whether anyone is likely to check up on you. Always assume you will be checked. As stated above, you only need to get caught once without a ticket without a reasonable reason to pretty much ruin your life.
Ethical questions aside, a ticket is always necessary unless you *know* you will not be checked.
MonsooN
Member
As many others have already said, I almost always travel for work and they pre book the tickets for me, which I collect from the machine.
There was a time a couple of months ago though where I got the FGW from Cardiff to Bristol Parkway with the intention of buying a ticket on the train and the guard didn't come through to check - the train wasn't even busy). The ticket was only £10, but I ended up not paying it because there wasn't an opportunity.
I used to work with someone who used to get the Tyne and Wear Metro to work every day. He never paid for a ticket. His logic was that a monthly pas cost £30 (at the time, this was a few years ago) and the ticket inspectors would only ever be out once every six weeks. If you were unlucky enough to get stopped, you were given a £10 on the spot fine. As long as you had the £10 on you, they'd let you go on your way with no extra action being taken.
Over a three month period, a pass would cost £90, but a couple of fines would be just £20. That's a big difference. I'm not condoning it, but you can certainly see why people choose to do it.
There was a time a couple of months ago though where I got the FGW from Cardiff to Bristol Parkway with the intention of buying a ticket on the train and the guard didn't come through to check - the train wasn't even busy). The ticket was only £10, but I ended up not paying it because there wasn't an opportunity.
I used to work with someone who used to get the Tyne and Wear Metro to work every day. He never paid for a ticket. His logic was that a monthly pas cost £30 (at the time, this was a few years ago) and the ticket inspectors would only ever be out once every six weeks. If you were unlucky enough to get stopped, you were given a £10 on the spot fine. As long as you had the £10 on you, they'd let you go on your way with no extra action being taken.
Over a three month period, a pass would cost £90, but a couple of fines would be just £20. That's a big difference. I'm not condoning it, but you can certainly see why people choose to do it.
The issue isn't just moral or ethical, it's legal.
As evidenced by the Disputes & Prosecutions section of this Forum.
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With the benefit of hindsight.
In advance, of course, you have no way of knowing whether, when, where or how often you'll be checked.
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Isn't there a booking office at Parkway?
Yes, ticket barriers do stop people travelling without a ticket. Which could, of course, be a ticket to South Hampstead.
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You will never have PAYG for such journeys for many reasons, which I won't go into here as it's a whole new topic in its own right (feel free to make a thread if you want).
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He's very much mistaken. These are not fines, and I don't think they will issue endless Penalty Fares without prosecuting!
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Are they?
- PFN Disputed - Summons Issued - False Witness Statements
- London Midland Revenue / Liverpool - Whatta mess
- I sat in 1st class on a Standard ticket on London Midland
- London Midlands Prosecution Letter, young person card
- London Midland Prosecutions Unit
- London Midland Penalty Fare
- taken to court over fare evasion/intent to avoid a fare
Flamingo
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Oh, you had the opportunity and obligation to buy a ticket at Cardiff before boarding, and it must have been early morning or late evening when barriers were open (or you connected onto local stoppers each end, in which case the ticket was not "Cardiff to Bristol Parkway"). Don't make out it's anybody else's fault you consciously dodged paying.
You chose not to pay - that a lot different to not having an opportunity to pay. It's called "Pay when challenged", and like a lot of people you seem to think that it's up to the Railway to catch you, and then the only consequence is that you will buy an off-peak, (+/- railcard discounted) ticket.
I look forward to reading your thread in the "Disputes" forum over the next few months...
Presumably there was no open ticket office at Cardiff or Bristol Parkway, and you were using a payment method that wasn't accepted by the machines at Cardiff, such as rail travel voucher?
cjmillsnun
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Pay when challenged. Wasn't that used as a (unsuccessful) defence by the brother of the leader of the Labour Party?
CC 72100
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Sounds like you've been rumbled as a fare evader then *awkward*
Flamingo
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Funny, I though Cardiff Ticket Office was open before the first HST to London left. I must check.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The amount of money involved in the event of a calculation mistake or in the event of taking a peak train in error[1] is the problem with that concept. Though I would be happy with the idea of being able to purchase an electronic ticket that was tagged to the purchasing card so I would just have to touch in with that to use it/have it checked.
[1] If my ticket is not valid, I would rather the barrier refused me access than just charged me £150-odd single.
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It could, though as Euston's platforms are barriered semi-separately, there's no reason a ticket to anywhere south of Harrow and Wealdstone should open the ones on any platforms other than 8-11.
MonsooN
Member
I'm sure this won't make any difference considering the replies to my previous comment, but all I'll say in my defence is that I arrived at Cardiff station with moments to spare to catch my train as I'd been held up at work. The barriers were open (it was around 3pm), so I decided to save time by buying a ticket on the train. By the time the train started approaching Parkway and I realised the guard wasn't coming, it was too late. Also, as the train was running a few minutes late, I only had about two minutes to make my connection (Which was all paid for) so didn't have time to go to the ticket office at Parkway either. None of this is an excuse. It's just what happened that day.
I did not set out to avoid paying the fare. I'd actually forgotten all about it until I read this thread - and now I feel really bad about it!
I'm not sure what difference it will make now, but I'm an honest guy and on any other day I'd have bought a ticket before getting on the train.
I did not set out to avoid paying the fare. I'd actually forgotten all about it until I read this thread - and now I feel really bad about it!
I'm not sure what difference it will make now, but I'm an honest guy and on any other day I'd have bought a ticket before getting on the train.
MonsooN
Member
You can't really say there was "no opportunity" then
I just didn't want anyone to think I'd deliberately set out to avoid paying the fare because I'd never do that.
Without getting into the rights and wrongs of this case, in the future it might be worth thinking twice before admitting to criminal offences on a public forum,
Busaholic
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Might I ask why Euston barriers are open and/or unmanned so often? Whenever I use London Victoria the barriers are always operating/manned.
Harlesden
Member
When you know you have a valid ticket in your pocket, you can sit back, relax and enjoy the journey.
When you don't have a ticket, you are tense and nervous. Perhaps even mentally sh-tting yourself on hearing any authoritative sounding voice in the vicinity.
Surely the transfer of a small amount of currency from your pocket to a ticket machine or ticket seller is far more desirable than a stressful journey - along with not knowing what might happen once you have reached your destination and attempt to leave the station.
When you don't have a ticket, you are tense and nervous. Perhaps even mentally sh-tting yourself on hearing any authoritative sounding voice in the vicinity.
Surely the transfer of a small amount of currency from your pocket to a ticket machine or ticket seller is far more desirable than a stressful journey - along with not knowing what might happen once you have reached your destination and attempt to leave the station.
You could have sought out the guard.
You could have sought out the guard on the second train.
You could have purchased the ticket at your final destination.
Even now, you could just buy the damned ticket!
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
No, but you did still commit a Byelaw offence.
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Staff shortage, I'd imagine. I remain amazed they went for separate barrier lines rather than one long one under the departure board, as what they have done will save no staff at all over manned boarding checks, and indeed it will be less effective because a Travelcard or single to South Hampstead will open them. And the MKC commuters will probably notice that they can circumvent the pick-up only restriction, too.
I know a single barrier line would have required significant modifications to the station layout, but I still think it would have been worthwhile.
TH172341
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Very very true - you can just relax if you've got the ticket and once you're on board. I started worrying the other day when at first I couldn't find my ticket when the guard was coming - luckily found it, buried in my wallet among a ton of other used tickets!! Why you'd voluntarily choose to risk it I don't know considering the unncessary hassle it could lead to. I've immediately sought out the guard if the station ticket office is closed to get a ticket.
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It's more that it would have changed the foot traffic patterns significantly, and the mix of commuter, outer suburban and long-distance inter-city would make the issues at the Paddington gateline pale in comparison.
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