Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

JamesTT · 4 May 2016

455driver said:
There is no security with the new role and it isnt open to negotiation, why cant people understand that!

Would you be happy if your employer looked round and said "your job is being made redundant but we are going to give you this new one, the terms and conditions are worse, there is no overtime and rest day working and we cannot guarantee how long the job will last, if you dont like it there is the door"!

What would you do, bearing in mind you have got a wife, kids and mortgage to pay!

Yes you are right that isn't good but their must be some points they could negotiate re OBS role such as, it will be classed as safety critical so must adhere to Hidden.
Break length should be same as Conductors
Including booking on and cashing up time within the shift.

Just a side point if a Conductor of 30 years becomes an OBS and 2 years later is made redundant would the redundancy be based on 32 years service or only 2?

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tony6499 · 4 May 2016

JamesTT said:
Yes you are right that isn't good but their must be some points they could negotiate re OBS role such as, it will be classed as safety critical so must adhere to Hidden.
Break length should be same as Conductors
Including booking on and cashing up time within the shift.

Just a side point if a Conductor of 30 years becomes an OBS and 2 years later is made redundant would the redundancy be based on 32 years service or only 2?

That's why the RMT are going down the legal P T & R route as GTR seem to think they can seamlessly transfer Conductors into the new role which obviously they can't legally

Starmill · 4 May 2016

I'd think it's outrageous that they are publicly bitching about their staff not coming to work even if I didn't know that they had created a toxic working environment for them. As I do I continue to be utterly repelled at this kind of behavior. *shivers*

G136GREYHOUND · 4 May 2016

PakRail said:
Hahah that is the bit that got me as well.

JUST GREAT ISN'T IT, SHALL WE RE-WRITE IT FOR THEM :

"Dear Customer, we are sorry we couldn't run your train today, this is due to the fact that :

A) We have not employed enough essential staff to run our business without
having them work their rest days for us, which they are not obliged to do.
B) Despite having told them they are all to be downgraded and eventually be
made redundant and that we have taken their staff travel and car park
passes off them in an attempt to bully them into submission, our staff have
the temerity to not come into work for us, on rest days that they are under
no obligation to work, therefore, we cancelled your train today

It's not our fault.....honest Yours Southern

ainsworth74 · 4 May 2016

tony6499 said:
I think they seem to be hanging back since they got that injunction

As far as I can tell from the injunction if they wish to ballot for strike action over the issue I think they can.

chris11256 · 4 May 2016

On the topic of DOO, I've been told at c2c passenger pannel today that 12 carriage services should be going DOO by late June/July time. Aparantly a few final problems to sort out with the new monitors first.

D1009 · 4 May 2016

What's the current position regarding DOO on c2c? I thought it was all DOO already.

chris11256 · 4 May 2016

D1009 said:
What's the current position regarding DOO on c2c? I thought it was all DOO already.

4/8 carriage services are DOO. 12 carriage services have a 'train captain'.

ainsworth74 · 4 May 2016

D1009 said:
What's the current position regarding DOO on c2c? I thought it was all DOO already.

Everything other than 12-car peak time workings is DOO. Peak time 12-car trains have guards.

cjmillsnun · 4 May 2016

ainsworth74 said:
As far as I can tell from the injunction if they wish to ballot for strike action over the issue I think they can.

That was my understanding as well.

Surreytraveller · 4 May 2016

spangles said:
Interesting: the national executive appear to have overruled the local branch.
Also it is strange that the strikes have been curtailed so much. Does this mean the RMT are losing the support of their members who understandably don't want to lose a total of six days pay?

I can assure you that the RMT is not losing any support from its members. On the contrary, union membership has increased.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Bishopstone said:
Forgive me if I've missed this earlier in the thread, but isn't there an ASLEF ballot result due imminently?

Is the date change for the RMT action anticipating the ASLEF position - plus their required pre-strike notice period - with the intention of synchronising action?

It's probably better to not syncronise action if you want to produce more disruption

ainsworth74 · 4 May 2016

Surreytraveller said:
It's probably better to not syncronise action if you want to produce more disruption

But on the other hand if ASLEF and the RMT walk out on the same day that pretty much shuts down the Southern network for a day possibly longer if it was a full 24 hour strike as it'll impact the previous day and the following day.

Carlisle · 4 May 2016

Surreytraveller said:
It's probably better to not syncronise action if you want to produce more disruption

It's reassuring to know both sides in this dispute are keen to find a resolution

Agent_c · 4 May 2016

Carlisle said:
It's reassuring to know both sides in this dispute are keen to find a resolution

If I may quote Yes Minister, I'm sure one side will ensure "That every stone is left unturned in the search for a solution"

Bishopstone · 5 May 2016

Surreytraveller said:
It's probably better to not syncronise action if you want to produce more disruption

Bad choice of word on my part. 'Co-ordinate' is what I meant. I expect maximum disruption would be achieved by both unions striking at various overlapping times over a fortnight (say), such that it becomes impossible to work-up an emergency timetable which holds from one day to the next. That would represent a real war of attrition.

Back to ASLEF. The last relevant news article on their public website is dated 8 April, announcing their intention to ballot 'as soon as possible'. I thought the balloting process was normally quite swift: it's not a vast electorate, after all. I may have misunderstood the electoral complexities, though, or perhaps there have been developments which ASLEF have chosen not to put in the public domain.

Chrisgr31 · 5 May 2016

Is a better option for all staff to stop working overtime and rest days? You'll still get dupisruption, most of the anger will be driven towards Southern for not having enough staff, rather than the union.

However will mean that Southern can say that once we change to the OBS role we won't have so many of these issues.

Incidentally did I see the OBS role won't do Sunday's, or is that just those that convert from being conductors to OBS won't as they'd get extra pay? Any new OBS recruited will presumably be on a contract that requires them to work 7 days a week for next to nothing.

N Levers · 5 May 2016

Chrisgr31 said:
Any new OBS recruited will presumably be on a contract that requires them to work 7 days a week for next to nothing.

I can't see any OBS ever being recruited. Once an (ex Conductor) OBS leaves they won't be replaced, and the concept will naturally expire.

LowLevel · 5 May 2016

N Levers said:
I can't see any OBS ever being recruited. Once an (ex Conductor) OBS leaves they won't be replaced, and the concept will naturally expire.

Despite my position on this issue (hoping some particularly poisonous karma comes round to bite Charles Horton, Dyan Crowther, Alex Foulds, their assorted minions and their satanic puppetmasters at the DfT - I can't wait until I next run into McLoughlin as we not infrequently do, I've got a few things I want to ask him), I don't actually believe that's going to be the case. If only because the RPIs are being rolled into it against their will as well and they're going to need some revenue protection staff somewhere. Whether they will be on the same (already rubbish) terms is up for debate but I don't believe it will actually peter out just yet.

Tetchytyke · 5 May 2016

Bishopstone said:
Is the date change for the RMT action anticipating the ASLEF position - plus their required pre-strike notice period - with the intention of synchronising action?

I doubt it.

GTR decided to deduct two days pay from everyone who strikes, on the basis that the strike was across two days, even though nobody striking would be missing both days. I seriously doubt this is lawful, but it will take litigation to resolve.

The RMT have gone back to one day's strike to avoid this problem. GTR definitely can't deduct two days pay for a one day strike.

Bishopstone · 5 May 2016

N Levers said:
I can't see any OBS ever being recruited. Once an (ex Conductor) OBS leaves they won't be replaced, and the concept will naturally expire.

Until the numbers deplete to a core, being the approximate current size of the RPI team, with a bit (10%?) of growth. Plus, perhaps, some 'hosts' for the Gatwick Express, 06.00-19.00 Monday-Saturday.

If London - Ipswich (EMU) and London - Banbury are operated without an on-board presence, I can't see what's so special about London - Eastbourne (etc) that would warrant the DfT agreeing to pay for a large pool of OBS, indefinitely. So it will be natural wastage, and/or a redundancy round at some point in the future.

dgl · 5 May 2016

Mabey GTR are treating the current guards in this way so that they will end up quitting, therefore, there being no one to be able to strike and then being able to implement the OBS role with less resistance (probably stupidly forgetting that the drivers will put up a fight too).
They will then hire new people who will be just happy that they have got a job and wont't care about the lack of safety training or realise that it is possibly a short term position.

Agent_c · 5 May 2016

Arctic Troll said:
I doubt it.

GTR decided to deduct two days pay from everyone who strikes, on the basis that the strike was across two days, even though nobody striking would be missing both days. I seriously doubt this is lawful, but it will take litigation to resolve.

The RMT have gone back to one day's strike to avoid this problem. GTR definitely can't deduct two days pay for a one day strike.

the letter though had a theory that suggested they could take a week (although I'm sure that is legally dubious)

embers25 · 5 May 2016

Agent_c said:
the letter though had a theory that suggested they could take a week (although I'm sure that is legally dubious)

I totally sympathise with Southern guards here as ultimately the GTR end game is driver-only operation with no on train staff except some revenue ones (which is not a step forwards) but the way GTR are playing this has the potential to change industrial relations and railway operation across the country as finally someone is standing up to the unions and, if nothing else, in future the unions will have to be a lot more careful when they call strikes. I don't agree with almost all of what GTR have done BUT if I can't work for 2 days due to the strike why should guards lose one days pay but me two. The strike, as most recent ones have been, was deliberately designed to cause 2 days worth of disruption and so docking 2 days pay is understandable, however contraversial.

DarloRich · 5 May 2016

embers25 said:
I totally sympathise with Southern guards here as ultimately the GTR end game is driver-only operation with no on train staff except some revenue ones (which is not a step forwards) but the way GTR are playing this has the potential to change industrial relations and railway operation across the country as finally someone is standing up to the unions and, if nothing else, in future the unions will have to be a lot more careful when they call strikes. I don't agree with almost all of what GTR have done BUT if I can't work for 2 days due to the strike why should guards lose one days pay but me two. The strike, as most recent ones have been, was deliberately designed to cause 2 days worth of disruption and so docking 2 days pay is understandable, however contraversial.

You are routinely deducted a days pay for any strike action or at least we would be if we took any action. As for the rest how should the employees protest about the proposed changes (which you agree are not beneficial to anyone directly concerned) without taking strike action?

The stuff about industrial relations in the railways is well wide of the mark.

Agent_c · 5 May 2016

embers25 said:
I totally sympathise with Southern guards here as ultimately the GTR end game is driver-only operation with no on train staff except some revenue ones (which is not a step forwards) but the way GTR are playing this has the potential to change industrial relations and railway operation across the country as finally someone is standing up to the unions and, if nothing else, in future the unions will have to be a lot more careful when they call strikes. I don't agree with almost all of what GTR have done BUT if I can't work for 2 days due to the strike why should guards lose one days pay but me two. The strike, as most recent ones have been, was deliberately designed to cause 2 days worth of disruption and so docking 2 days pay is understandable, however contraversial.

Its a matter of plain contract law. The Drivers get supposedly paid for the hours they work, if they work and don't get paid, its a prima facie breach of contract.

Yes, on one level a strike is a breach of contract too, its however an action protected by statute to prevent further negative effect (such as termination).

GTR are attempting to pass on a "fine" that isn't related to the damages they've faced from the action. Whilst there may be a moral argument that they shouldn't be paid for two days (one I'll respectfully disagree with, although I must admit to have being sympathetic to it in the past) I can't see a legal one.

Tetchytyke · 5 May 2016

Agent_c said:
the letter though had a theory that suggested they could take a week (although I'm sure that is legally dubious)

The theory is that they don't have to pay for "partial performance", and they claim they define that on a weekly rather than a daily basis. Therefore GTR claim they don't have to pay staff for any week that a staff member does not complete the full week.

It is true, they don't have to pay for partial performance on a daily basis (my trade union, UCU, found this out when we had two-hour strikes), but arguing this on a weekly basis will be challenging. It sounds scary, but nothing more.

Wolfie · 5 May 2016

Arctic Troll said:
The theory is that they don't have to pay for "partial performance", and they claim they define that on a weekly rather than a daily basis. Therefore GTR claim they don't have to pay staff for any week that a staff member does not complete the full week.

It is true, they don't have to pay for partial performance on a daily basis (my trade union, UCU, found this out when we had two-hour strikes), but arguing this on a weekly basis will be challenging. It sounds scary, but nothing more.

RMT need to look hard at finding a damn good ambulance-chaser to file a group action for illegal deduction of wages.....

Failing that my response, quite simply, would be that if you wish to dock me a weeks pay then I won't work for a week (ie no pay equals no performance).... when everyone takes the same stance the end result is Southern closed down for a whole week....

Wow, Mr Horton really is trying to recreate Connex - as an aside how is that incompetent muppet still employed running anything more important than a whelkstall? - .....

Dave1987 · 5 May 2016

LowLevel said:
Despite my position on this issue (hoping some particularly poisonous karma comes round to bite Charles Horton, Dyan Crowther, Alex Foulds, their assorted minions and their satanic puppetmasters at the DfT - I can't wait until I next run into McLoughlin as we not infrequently do, I've got a few things I want to ask him), I don't actually believe that's going to be the case. If only because the RPIs are being rolled into it against their will as well and they're going to need some revenue protection staff somewhere. Whether they will be on the same (already rubbish) terms is up for debate but I don't believe it will actually peter out just yet.

I'm becoming increasingly tempted to write to the Secretary of State on this issue to get his take on this whole saga.

sarahj · 5 May 2016

on a second reading, perhaps not

Agent_c · 5 May 2016

Dave1987 said:
I'm becoming increasingly tempted to write to the Secretary of State on this issue to get his take on this whole saga.

You'll just get some low level staffer to copy/paste a response to you. You can get more or less the same thing from Southern Customer services

.

Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

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