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Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

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A-driver

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Would that not depend on how much the bonus payment for the introducing an extension of DOO would be. Plus the bonus for hitting ticketless travel targets which GTR believe they will meet by introducing the OBS role.


I'm purely talking driver harmonisation. No other grades. FCC and southern/GX are being kept as seperate companies in many ways-including contracts, T&C, pay and driving policies.
 
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Domh245

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ASLEF selected which drivers it balloted in a way that breaches the strict rules on balloting, and that, because it induced drivers to refuse to drive trains in advance of conducting the ballot, it cannot now lawfully ask them to take industrial action

Can someone explain to me how ASLEF balloted drivers in a way that breaches the rules on balloting?

Also, can someone explain to me how the second part works?
 

Robertj21a

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Can someone explain to me how ASLEF balloted drivers in a way that breaches the rules on balloting?

I doubt that any of us will know for definite but I would be surprised if ASLEF hadn't been ultra-careful to ensure everything was legal. If they've messed up then they only have themselves to blame, they know the law takes a very precise view of issues.
 

JamesTT

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I'm purely talking driver harmonisation. No other grades. FCC and southern/GX are being kept as seperate companies in many ways-including contracts, T&C, pay and driving policies.

But if the true aim is to get rid of guards on all but a small number of routes and rolling stock types and the OBS staff will end up displaced or redundant come 2021. Won't the cost savings in doing this make it finacially viable to introduce driver harmonisation. That all drivers become GTR drivers not distinguished by a brand. On an enhanced pay, even better conditions but on the proviso that the adopt DOO(P)
 

A-driver

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But if the true aim is to get rid of guards on all but a small number of routes and rolling stock types and the OBS staff will end up displaced or redundant come 2021. Won't the cost savings in doing this make it finacially viable to introduce driver harmonisation. That all drivers become GTR drivers not distinguished by a brand. On an enhanced pay, even better conditions but on the proviso that the adopt DOO(P)


Why would they want driver harmonisation? There's nothing in it for the company.
 

JamesTT

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Why would they want driver harmonisation? There's nothing in it for the company.

Well if the ends justify the means. The ends being that Govia get franchise bonus payments and will be favourites for securing further franchises. Plus an overall cost savings on the wage bill for the franchise.
 

313103

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ASLEF didn't collaborate. All LOROL drivers had DOO in their contracts. There wasn't much ASLEF and the drivers could do to defend it. It was the same situation as we saw on GatEx, where the courts have agreed the drivers have to drive the DOO trains.

The drivers on LOROL had DOO in there contracts after agreements between ASLEF in 1996 as part of the introduction of Driver Restructuring Initiative with the then incumbent owners of Silverlink, National Express.

There was a lot ASLEF could of done like not agreeing to the extension of DOO in the first place. In my eyes that is collaboration and affected me personally. Once DOO is agreed with ASLEF all the RMT could do is negotiate a higher then average settlement plan for those being made redundant.
 

HH

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Full harmonisation will never happen as it would be too expensive-FCC is the smaller 'half' and are on much better money and terms. Would be too expensive as to harmonise you would need to increase all southern and Gatwick drivers pay and conditions to some extent.

I can see ways in which harmonisation might be agreed if there was a will on both sides. There are things that the ex-FCC drivers have, like the right not to work Sundays, that I'm sure GTR wish they didn't. Plus GTR would probably like a multi-year pay deal, a RDW agreement and I'm sure other things too. But this pre-supposes that you have two sides who want to reach an agreement, whereas I expect we don't have one.
 

A-driver

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Well if the ends justify the means. The ends being that Govia get franchise bonus payments and will be favourites for securing further franchises. Plus an overall cost savings on the wage bill for the franchise.



I can see ways in which harmonisation might be agreed if there was a will on both sides. There are things that the ex-FCC drivers have, like the right not to work Sundays, that I'm sure GTR wish they didn't. Plus GTR would probably like a multi-year pay deal, a RDW agreement and I'm sure other things too. But this pre-supposes that you have two sides who want to reach an agreement, whereas I expect we don't have one.


The Sunday agreement will be dealt with without harmonisation-it will be dealt with in he next (October) FCC pay deal. That's probably why GTR are already making contingency plans for an all out strike by GN and TL drivers before Xmas (seriously-they are).

I don't know why harmonisation would affect bonus payments or securing future franchises-GTR have said from the start that they do not want harmonisation.

The pay anniversary has already moved from April for FCC to October to bring it in line with southern. They are going for harmonisation by the back door for the is they want (12 car DOO) but avoiding formally harmonising which would be too expensive.
 

philthetube

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This is taken from the Southern website :-

ASLEF union ballot result - Monday 23rd May 2016 - A response from Southern:

We are disappointed with the result and will now await notification from Aslef as to what its plans may be. Any action would only heap more disruption on our passengers - passengers who have already been through two recent strikes by RMT Union Conductors.

We have repeatedly tried to engage with Aslef on this but the union has refused to engage in any sort of meaningful dialogue. We urge them once more to sit down and talk to us.

In the meantime, we have sought an injunction from the High Court against any industrial action that may result from this ballot. ASLEF selected which drivers it balloted in a way that breaches the strict rules on balloting, and that, because it induced drivers to refuse to drive trains in advance of conducting the ballot, it cannot now lawfully ask them to take industrial action.

We expect to hear the result of our injunction application in the next few days.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
This is taken from the Southern website :-

ASLEF union ballot result - Monday 23rd May 2016 - A response from Southern:

We are disappointed with the result and will now await notification from Aslef as to what its plans may be. Any action would only heap more disruption on our passengers - passengers who have already been through two recent strikes by RMT Union Conductors.

We have repeatedly tried to engage with Aslef on this but the union has refused to engage in any sort of meaningful dialogue. We urge them once more to sit down and talk to us.

In the meantime, we have sought an injunction from the High Court against any industrial action that may result from this ballot. ASLEF selected which drivers it balloted in a way that breaches the strict rules on balloting, and that, because it induced drivers to refuse to drive trains in advance of conducting the ballot, it cannot now lawfully ask them to take industrial action.

We expect to hear the result of our injunction application in the next few days.

I suspect that had aslef balloted all drivers that would have been use be gtr as ground to have the result dismissed
 

JamesTT

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The Sunday agreement will be dealt with without harmonisation-it will be dealt with in he next (October) FCC pay deal. That's probably why GTR are already making contingency plans for an all out strike by GN and TL drivers before Xmas (seriously-they are).

I don't know why harmonisation would affect bonus payments or securing future franchises-GTR have said from the start that they do not want harmonisation.

.

Time for a crazy theory. DFT and GTR are determined to introduce an extension of DOO. It is one of the committed obligations and would lead to a bonus payment if achieved. If GTR offered to harmonise the drivers contracts offering new terms which overall benefit the driver's. Based on an agreement that DOO will be extended. Might GTR change their stance on harmonisation?
 

cjmillsnun

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The drivers neither won nor lost on London Overground. ASLEF agreed DOO on the last two Overground lines. It was RMT who lost big time,although Guards who did not want other jobs got good pay offs including at least two who got over £60,000.
I have no evidence but I would not be suprised if ASLEF & GTR are having very informal, very private words now.
ASLEF are smart & professional & if they can a good deal for drivers without having to be exorated in the press or members loosing money they go for it. Both sides may say the above is rubbish but they may be deniable words via a third party. I accept that the AGM ruling of no DOO expansion is a barrier,but close to home the drivers agreed to work without guards from Strood to Gillingham recently. What harm or outcry did that cause?

You think ASLEF are having informal chats with GTR when GTR have one injunction out on them and are looking for another? I have to ask what planet you're on?
 

spangles

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The Sunday agreement will be dealt with without harmonisation-it will be dealt with in he next (October) FCC pay deal. That's probably why GTR are already making contingency plans for an all out strike by GN and TL drivers before Xmas (seriously-they are).

I've no reason to doubt you that they are making contingency plans, but I'm struggling to see what those could be. How would they run a service without drivers. Surely there can't be management grade drivers (like there was conductors during the last strike?)
 
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HH

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I've no reason to doubt you that they are making contingency plans, but I'm struggling to see what those could be. How would they run a service without drivers. Surely there can't be management grade drivers (like there was conductors during the last strike?)

There are, driver managers; but most of those wouldn't normally have up to date route knowledge, etc. Even if they got them up to date there's only about 1 for every 25 drivers and several probably won't be physically competent. Contingency doesn't necessarily mean that they will run any trains; it's just that they have a plan... (cancel everything and go down the pub would be a contingency plan :lol:)
 

JamesTT

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Would public liability premiums increase if DOO was extended? If so does DFT/NR foot the bill or the TOC in question?
 

Skimble19

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I've no reason to doubt you that they are making contingency plans, but I'm struggling to see what those could be. How would they run a service without drivers. Surely there can't be management grade drivers (like there was conductors during the last strike?)

It'll be the same plan as last year I imagine when a drivers strike (or the year before, I forget when it was) was threatened, a very, very limited service of 1/2 an hour at all main stations, no trains at smaller stations to allow 8/12 car operation and station staff everywhere with queuing systems in place.
 
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Squonk

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This image was recently posted on a facebook group and accurately depicts the in cab monitor image from a 377 on a sunny day,

so who fancies becoming a train driver and playing the roulette wheel of DOO ?
 

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infobleep

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TPE have said internally that all TPE services are guaranteed to have a safety critical conductor on board for the life of the franchise.

Although that doesn't state exactly what duties they will perform on the various batches of new rolling stock. Nor does it mean that they won't change their mind in a few years should the sums not add up and savings are required.

Having said that, I was informed that First did seriously look at DOO / DCO (no doubt in a bid to make friends with the DfT) but concluded that as they were wanting to be an Intercity operator which would guarantee on board staff, and bearing in mind the rolling stock to be operated and the routes they operate on, they concluded there was no business case for altering the current method of working.
The North Downs Line isn't intercity though. Could they have made partial friends with the DfT and run some as DOO.

Not that I want them to mind you.

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Now where did I see that like button!
Tapatalk had one for this forum but it's gone now. However those without Tapatalk couldn't see it. I imagine most people don't use Tapatalk to access this forum either.

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The students I know on zero hours contracts enjoy the flexibility.

Everyone else? They don't say they feel exploited because they know that if they upset their boss they won't be getting any hours at all. Restaurant staff, in particular, know this only too well. If bookings are a bit quiet they get sent home, no pay, even though they've just paid to get there.

Zero hours contracts are nothing more than passing the financial risk of a quiet night in the restaurant from the wealthy hedge-fund restaurant owners to the poorest people in the business.

Of course many people who claim to be on "zero hours contracts" are actually contractors in IT or management, which really isn't the same thing at all.
I go to a small restaurant in Guildford called Olivos. They regularly wins local customer service awards. I wasn't aware it was run by hedge fund managers!

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infobleep

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ASLEF didn't collaborate. All LOROL drivers had DOO in their contracts. There wasn't much ASLEF and the drivers could do to defend it. It was the same situation as we saw on GatEx, where the courts have agreed the drivers have to drive the DOO trains.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


You don't see disputes in private businesses because people who disagree with management don't tend to have long and fruitful careers.

It's not really something we should be aspiring to.
How did it end up in the driver's contracts in the fist place?

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HLE

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This image was recently posted on a facebook group and accurately depicts the in cab monitor image from a 377 on a sunny day,

so who fancies becoming a train driver and playing the roulette wheel of DOO ?

If it were me, that would be a call to control and the signaller to say I cannot leave X station because I cannot tell whether it is safe to dispatch or not.
 

physics34

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If it were me, that would be a call to control and the signaller to say I cannot leave X station because I cannot tell whether it is safe to dispatch or not.

We tell the signaller and then go back and lock each carriage out individually and then report it to southern at the end of our duty. Imagine how long a 12 car would take!
 

Squonk

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If it were me, that would be a call to control and the signaller to say I cannot leave X station because I cannot tell whether it is safe to dispatch or not.

I agree and I would do the same, and I accept that that image is probably worst case situation but for the benefit of those outside the business this is the kind of equipment we have to work with, I sometimes get the impression that people think we have large wide screen panoramic monitors with HD resolution and get a view far better than any Conductors eyes, the truth is a long way from that i'm afraid, modern technology isn't always better.
 

HLE

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We tell the signaller and then go back and lock each carriage out individually and then report it to southern at the end of our duty. Imagine how long a 12 car would take!

Huge waste of time. Probably costs more in delay minutes than a guards monthly wage.

But even if the doors are locked out - it still isn't safe to dispatch.

Really does show how much we take for granted up here
 

tsr

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We tell the signaller and then go back and lock each carriage out individually and then report it to southern at the end of our duty. Imagine how long a 12 car would take!

I've done it, several times, in various places. And then had to go back to perform the train safety check from the correct dispatch position.

Allow at least 10 minutes... could be waaay more if the porter switches are sticky or there's a door fault as well...
 

RichardN

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Was that due to the to the unsafe nature of Strood tunnel until it was re lined?

The tunnel isn't between Strood and Gillingham, so unlikely I'd think.

They might actually mean "to Gillingham via Strood" and use Strood to Gillingham as a shorthand, of course.
 
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