Northern Rail - Letting the North-East down

TBY-Paul · 27 May 2016

It was interesting to read of the extra services put on in the Leicester area the other week when Leicester City were having their Victory parade, and the local TOC's rightly being applauded for their efforts.

Forward a few weeks, and here in the North-east England are playing Australia at the Stadium of Light, Sunderland. It's a 7.45 KO, so the match should finish around 9.40pm. Tyne & Wear Metro are providing extra services to Newcastle to cater for the extra demand.

Northern Rail in their wisdom are running a normal service, which means the last train from Sunderland to Hartlepool, Middlesbrough is 21.38.

So to add to the Teesside Airport Airshow tomorrow, we can now add tonight fiasco to the list...

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Nick82 · 27 May 2016

TBY-Paul said:
It was interesting to read of the extra services put on in the Leicester area the other week when Leicester City were having their Victory parade, and the local TOC's rightly being applauded for there effort's.

Forward a few weeks, and here in the North-east England are playing Australia at the Stadium of Light Sunderland. It's a 7.45 ko, so the match should finish around 9.40pm. Tyne & Wear Metro are providing extra services to Newcastle to cater for the extra demand.

Northern Rail in their wisdom are running a normal service, which means the last train from Sunderland to Hartlepool, Middlesbrough is 21.38.

So to add to the Teesside Airport Airshow tomorrow, we can now add tonight fiasco to the list...

Northern, formally Northern Rail has had additional units on today to compensate for the cricket in Chester le St any fans wishing to travel to the game and also over the bank holiday weekend due to a number of events. The line between Sunderland and Newcastle is busy on the best of days. Northern only had a certain amount of units across the whole network so to seek additional units means withdrawing them from elsewhere like Darlington or Leeds for example, meaning due to being the bank holiday weekend leaves another area of the network short.Travelling myself on the network today there was no need to have extra trains. Not aimed at your self but members of the public seem to think there are spare units lying around depots collecting dust. From my experience, the majority of fans will be coming from the south so your looking at GC taking many to sunderland from York and London, maybe planning did not see the need to have extra trains running. As for Teeside Airport, the station is not fit for use and if it was, your still looking at a bit of a walk or Taxi getting to the event. Maybe the local council should be working with local TOC's to put shuttles on between the station, Darlington and the event.

LETHLFH · 27 May 2016

I believe Northern will be arranging later services under Arriva however on this occasion travelling passengers would have been aware they could not return on lines towards Middlesbrough on a Northern rail train before travelling outwards.
I do not think staffing an additional service at this time of night would be feasible as I do not think it is likely they would have got many volunteer drivers and conductors to work an additional service that wouldn't get back to Newcastle depot till after midnight on a Friday on a bank holiday weekend.

TBY-Paul · 27 May 2016

I'm fully converse with the reasons behind the problems surrounding the Airshow, but the point I was making, was the fact that the final train from Sunderland to Teesside, which is still in the North-east, so not a long distance service, was just prior to the final whistle, so useless to anyone travelling to the match.

As regards Northern's lack of units available, I should just point out the following:-
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y26516/2016/05/27/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y17723/2016/05/27/advanced

These are two ECS movements from Middlesbrough to Darlington. Would it not have been possible to join them together (if compatible)to form a short temp addition to the timetable and send them to Sunderland to create a 10.30'ish service back to Middlesbrough? and when finished send then them back to Darlington.

Bevan Price · 27 May 2016

A timetable with the last train at 21:38 strikes me as very poor these days. Quite apart from sport, it is much too early for anyone wanting to attend evening entertainment events.

Spartacus · 28 May 2016

I must say, splitting the 2110 MBR - HEX at NCL and sending it back South, maybe not as far as MBR but to HPL for a return to NCL, does sound like a good idea, but I've no idea of the loadings from NCL currently.

Paul Duck · 28 May 2016

I'm sorry I must disagree with comment regarding extra trains for cricket at Chester-Le-Street. Northern are providing 1 train running from Newcastle to Chester-Le-Street at around 10am, then empty stock back to Newcastle via Darlington. It is TP Express who are stopping most services additionally at Chester-Le-Street and that takes some bartering.

As for the football at Sunderland, the match finishes at 10pm surely to god there is a spare unit at Heaton Depot at this time of night. Same thing when 50,000 people attend the Beyonce concert next month. No trains back to Teesside after the event.

70014IronDuke · 28 May 2016

Sadly, I can well imagine that Northern would be quite worried about running footie extras in the NE. didn't a Middlesbrough-Sunderland train get trashed a couple of years back? FA Cup replay?
Apart from the staffing problems of trying to run extra services, losing units due to vandalism would be another disincentive to try to bother.

Rich McLean · 28 May 2016

It is likely football fans would have looked up trains etc before travelling up, and made hotel arrangements after seeing no additional's after the final whistle.

ivanhoe · 28 May 2016

Poor show in my opinion but par for the course. Usual reasons are peddled out even though the game was announced months in advance. If there were pre planned engineering works, I can accept that but if they could not be bothered, then the railway needs to change.

TBY-Paul · 28 May 2016

Just to add further to the stupidity of rail services in this region, I give you :-

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y26522/2016/05/27/advanced

This is an ECS movement from Nunthorpe to Middlesbrough, it goes past James Cook Hospital at 20.10, which is 10mins after Visiting time ends, Yet anybody looking to visit someone and was thinking of going by train would only see :-

19.34 to Middlesbrough
or
20.41 to Middlesbrough.

I'm sure, Having the ECS in service and calling at James Cook at 20.10 would entice some to leave the car at home.

hairyhandedfool · 28 May 2016

TBY-Paul said:
....These are two ECS movements from Middlesbrough to Darlington. Would it not have been possible to join them together (if compatible)to form a short temp addition to the timetable and send them to Sunderland to create a 10.30'ish service back to Middlesbrough? and when finished send then them back to Darlington.

Assuming a driver and guard are available, are Network Rail signalboxes down that line open after 2230?

howittpie · 28 May 2016

Again this weekend EMT are laying on extra services for events. This morning there were 3 additional Sheffield to London trains with 2 back this evening due to the play off final at Wembley while tonight and tomorrow there are additional late night services from Leicester to Nottingham/Derby because of the Kasabian concert at the kingpower stadium.

NoMorePacers · 28 May 2016

And no additional services from Hull to London, the other place thats going to Wembley.

TBY-Paul · 28 May 2016

hairyhandedfool said:
Assuming a driver and guard are available, are Network Rail signalboxes down that line open after 2230?

Not Sure,
But there is a freight movement between Hartlepool and Tees Yard, timed to leave Hartlepool at 23.00 arriving Tees yard 23.30 (Runs as req). There's also a GC service between Hartlepool (d 22.25) & Sunderland (a 22.50).

Norton to Tees Yard has movements during the night.

There was an ECS from Middlesbrough to Darlington at 23.24, which would suggest the signalboxes are open between the two.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y26527/2016/05/27/advanced

Bookd · 29 May 2016

It seems to me that trains in the area finish very early; I have friends in Hexham, who do not drive, and find it impossible to go to a theatre or concert in Newcastle. The last train back is 22.35 (21.18 on Saturday and 20.15 on Sunday). In any public transport system people will only travel in one direction if they are able to come back again.

Class 170101 · 29 May 2016

Is 22:35 departing Newcastle really that early for Theatre / concert finishes in Newcastle?

If it ran through to Carlisle thats an arrival after midnight even on current timings. Even a 15 minute later departure from Newcastle would see the train arrive Carlisle around 00:30.

cuccir · 29 May 2016

Class 170101 said:
Is 22:35 departing Newcastle really that early for Theatre / concert finishes in Newcastle?

Travelling from Newcastle to Durham, the last train is at 22:46, and yes, it's often too early for leisure activities. Concerts might typically finish between 22:00-22:30: my experience has often been of having to leave during the encore. Take an 8:15pm film start - with 20 minutes of trailers, a 120 minuets film ends at 22:35. I've performed at a open mic comedy night at a pub 2 mins walk from the station, and I tend to have to leave early. Pub quizzes often end too late to attend if using the train.

To make matters worse on a Saturday night the last train is at 21:55!!!

This isn't just Northen Rail though - it's a feature of the local geography, and of local rail services more broadly, as there's few 'local' services: almost all the services are middle to long distance that happen to serve local towns.

petersi · 29 May 2016

NoMorePacers said:
And no additional services from Hull to London, the other place thats going to Wembley.

There is engineering works that mean trains are running wrong line New Barnet to Finsbury Park and blocking the alternate route via Hertford North

So it may not be possible to run more trains

glbotu · 30 May 2016

cuccir said:
Travelling from Newcastle to Durham, the last train is at 22:46, and yes, it's often too early for leisure activities. Concerts might typically finish between 22:00-22:30: my experience has often been of having to leave during the encore. Take an 8:15pm film start - with 20 minutes of trailers, a 120 minuets film ends at 22:35. I've performed at a open mic comedy night at a pub 2 mins walk from the station, and I tend to have to leave early. Pub quizzes often end too late to attend if using the train.

To make matters worse on a Saturday night the last train is at 21:55!!!

This isn't just Northen Rail though - it's a feature of the local geography, and of local rail services more broadly, as there's few 'local' services: almost all the services are middle to long distance that happen to serve local towns.

It really doesn't help that Heaton depot is in the "wrong" place. ie: All the late evening trains want to go back to Heaton depot, which is just North of Newcastle on the ECML. The last train from Durham to Newcastle is really quite late (around 01:30 - yes, I know it's set down only), but going southbound the next depot is in York, over an hour away. It would be nice if TPE ran a few Newcastle - York trains around 2300 and 00:00, but the incentive really isn't there. My understanding as well, was that there used to be a few late night Newcastle - Middlesbrough via Darlington trains, but that some people died largely due to being very drunk and the added police presence required to stop it happening was no longer worth the cost.

TBY-Paul · 30 May 2016

cuccir said:
Travelling from Newcastle to Durham, the last train is at 22:46, and yes, it's often too early for leisure activities. Concerts might typically finish between 22:00-22:30: my experience has often been of having to leave during the encore. Take an 8:15pm film start - with 20 minutes of trailers, a 120 minuets film ends at 22:35. I've performed at a open mic comedy night at a pub 2 mins walk from the station, and I tend to have to leave early. Pub quizzes often end too late to attend if using the train.

To make matters worse on a Saturday night the last train is at 21:55!!!

This isn't just Northen Rail though - it's a feature of the local geography, and of local rail services more broadly, as there's few 'local' services: almost all the services are middle to long distance that happen to serve local towns.

I'm reminded of the time I stayed in Stevenage and travelled into London and was worried at getting back after a show, what a surprise to find out the last train back was after 1am, and I had a choice of up to 4tph up till that time.
Roll on a few Months later, and one of the major shows was touring the country and performing at the Sunderland Empire. But then imagine my disappoint to find the 21.38 was the last train back to Teesside.

I'd be interested to know if Teesside lost it's later services as a result of units no longer being stabled at, the now closed, Thornaby TMD.

3270 · 30 May 2016

TBY-Paul said:
I'm reminded of the time I stayed in Stevenage and travelled into London and was worried at getting back after a show, what a surprise to find out the last train back was after 1am, and I had a choice of up to 4tph up till that time.
Roll on a few Months later, and one of the major shows was touring the country and performing at the Sunderland Empire. But then imagine my disappoint to find the 21.38 was the last train back to Teesside.

I'd be interested to know if Teesside lost it's later services as a result of units no longer being stabled at, the now closed, Thornaby TMD.

The Sept 1967 - May 1968 timetable shows the last Newcastle-Middlesbrough train leaving Newcastle at 2056 and Sunderland at 2121 on Mondays-Saturdays, so no change there.

scarby · 30 May 2016

Nick82 said:
Not aimed at your self but members of the public seem to think there are spare units lying around depots collecting dust.

The thing is, that back in the day there were these spare units/locos/carriages. But they weren't always "collecting dust" - they were there to deal with times when there was a surge in demand, such as the events described here. That enabled BR to put extra services on on Friday evenings (remember the common "FO" note in the Inter-City timetables?), run an extensively strengthened timetable to seaside towns in summer, run football specials, put on extra coaches when needed (often by doubling up units) and operate a revised timetable at Christmas and other bank holidays, putting on extra services.

Then some time around the 1980s, when a lot of first gen stock began to head to the breaker's yard, the powers evidently decided that this was an uneconomic way to run a railway, and that stock should earn its corn by being in service as much as possible. This led to a much more rigid core timetable with less flexibility.

In the area I grew up in, Scarborough, the effect is evident. The core year-round service has improved out of all recognition - there are more trains, earlier and later services, and apart from a later start, Sunday services are almost as good as in the week. But the same service and stock provision is run on a wet Wednesday in February and on a hot summer holiday Friday in August - leading to overcrowded trains at these times as holidaymakers with lots of luggage and day-trippers struggle to cram into an hourly 3-carriage unit.

TBY-Paul · 30 May 2016

3270 said:
The Sept 1967 - May 1968 timetable shows the last Newcastle-Middlesbrough train leaving Newcastle at 2056 and Sunderland at 2121 on Mondays-Saturdays, so no change there.

Although that may have been the last "Direct" Service, there may well have been other options, that involved changes to services that no longer exist e.g
Change at Hartlepool or Eaglescliffe.

I remember back in the early 70's travelling from Billingham to Thornaby was an hourly service if travelling direct, but it was possible to get the Darlington bound train and change at Eaglescliffe.

Ze Random One · 30 May 2016

On intercity routes out of the largest cities, most of the FO paths are now in use SX, so extra stock to strengthen is moot. The capacity available at Kings Cross and Euston, for example, doesn't allow additional services until after 1930, which is after the time that the weekend rush starts to subside (as evidenced by VTEC starting off-peak at 1830 on a Friday, rather than 1900).
Back to the north east though, the last Durham coast service has always been surprisingly early. In fact I seem to recall that 2118 (2130SO) was quite an improvement on a few years ago when it was 2030.
I've always found it more surprising that the last trains to Durham and Hexham are so early, since the local bus firms have demonstrated that both of these routes attract custom beyond 11pm; in fact the last bus Newcastle to Durham on a weekend is at 0315, with the service run entirely commercially.

OMGitsDAVE · 30 May 2016

TBY-Paul said:
Just to add further to the stupidity of rail services in this region, I give you :-

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y26522/2016/05/27/advanced

This is an ECS movement from Nunthorpe to Middlesbrough, it goes past James Cook Hospital at 20.10, which is 10mins after Visiting time ends, Yet anybody looking to visit someone and was thinking of going by train would only see :-

19.34 to Middlesbrough
or
20.41 to Middlesbrough.

I'm sure, Having the ECS in service and calling at James Cook at 20.10 would entice some to leave the car at home.

It's a difficult one. The centre of Middlesbrough has little housing compared to similar areas, and in fact possibly a train out to Nunthorpe would be more use to people visiting the hospital.

I do agree however, that the current train timetables finish much too early in this area, and often limit any tourism or movement after 9PM. It's also worth noting that a number of Hartlepool bus services no longer run after 6PM.

Spartacus · 30 May 2016

I suspect one of the big issues is Nexus putting all their eggs in one basket, i.e. T&W Metro. There's also usually little, if any money available for cross-PTE services, never mind PTE to non-PTE.

since1814 · 30 May 2016

Class 170101 said:
Is 22:35 departing Newcastle really that early for Theatre / concert finishes in Newcastle?

If it ran through to Carlisle thats an arrival after midnight even on current timings. Even a 15 minute later departure from Newcastle would see the train arrive Carlisle around 00:30.

It only goes as far as Hexham. The return working gets back to Newcastle at 00.04

The last Tyne Valley service out of Newcastle on a Saturday (21.52) terminates at Prudhoe, at which point it turns back as an ECS to Metrocentre in order to form the 22.33 to Newcastle. I wonder why this is not in service all the way back from Prudhoe.

jkkne · 30 May 2016

cuccir said:
Travelling from Newcastle to Durham, the last train is at 22:46, and yes, it's often too early for leisure activities. Concerts might typically finish between 22:00-22:30: my experience has often been of having to leave during the encore. Take an 8:15pm film start - with 20 minutes of trailers, a 120 minuets film ends at 22:35. I've performed at a open mic comedy night at a pub 2 mins walk from the station, and I tend to have to leave early. Pub quizzes often end too late to attend if using the train.

To make matters worse on a Saturday night the last train is at 21:55!!!

This isn't just Northen Rail though - it's a feature of the local geography, and of local rail services more broadly, as there's few 'local' services: almost all the services are middle to long distance that happen to serve local towns.

alternatively, the last bus to Durham from Newcastle is 23.12 (aside Friday - Sunday where a 24 hour service operates)

Alternatively for Hexham and the Tyne Valley there's a departure at 23.00 on the bus

For Sunderland Stadium gigs etc, the Go North East run a myriad of extra services.

Maybe the train companies don't want to compete or can't see the sense in doing it?

harz99 · 31 May 2016

Bevan Price said:
A timetable with the last train at 21:38 strikes me as very poor these days. Quite apart from sport, it is much too early for anyone wanting to attend evening entertainment events.

For poor try the Bishop Auckland branch, last train off Darlington 2032 m-Sat, 1834 sun. returning from Bishop about 40 mins later.

Northern Rail - Letting the North-East down

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