Great Western Livery

43074 · 19 Jun 2016

leomartin125 said:
Nope, these are just the HST's that GWR will be keeping till 2020/2021, some sets are going quicker than others. As far as I know, once the first IEP set starts service in Summer 2017, they will start phasing the HST's out. But they will still need a few and this is the second of two sets that GWR will clearly be 'saving till last'.

Incorrect; the HSTs used on services into and out of Paddington will have been replaced completely by the December 2018 timetable change although as posted on the wnxx forum, a serious proposal has been put to the DfT by GWR for the use of 12 2+4 HSTs on the Cardiff - Penzance axis, allowing the 158s and 165s to work Cardiff to Portsmouth services - 158s on faster services.

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Harbornite · 20 Jun 2016

leomartin125 said:
Nope, these are just the HST's that GWR will be keeping till 2020/2021, some sets are going quicker than others. As far as I know, once the first IEP set starts service in Summer 2017, they will start phasing the HST's out. But they will still need a few and this is the second of two sets that GWR will clearly be 'saving till last'.

Citation needed.

DenmarkRail · 20 Jun 2016

43074 said:
Incorrect; the HSTs used on services into and out of Paddington will have been replaced completely by the December 2018 timetable change although as posted on the wnxx forum, a serious proposal has been put to the DfT by GWR for the use of 12 2+4 HSTs on the Cardiff - Penzance axis, allowing the 158s and 165s to work Cardiff to Portsmouth services - 158s on faster services.

I can't see the HST's going literally over night!

I promise that there will be issues, like with most new trains, that will keep SOME HST sets in service past that time table change.

Also I can't see all the wires being in place by that timetable change... It does not look as if it will be 100% complete by 2018 [1] (yes, they are bi mode, but there will be some sort of failure!)... and for all we know, trains may be delayed, into service.

Either way, I think we will see the HST's in GWR/FGW colours until 2019 at least!

-G

[1] http://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/Rail-News/gwml-electrification-dates-revealed

jimm · 20 Jun 2016

George Moore said:
I can't see the HST's going literally over night!

I promise that there will be issues, like with most new trains, that will keep SOME HST sets in service past that time table change.

Also I can't see all the wires being in place by that timetable change... It does not look as if it will be 100% complete by 2018 [1] (yes, they are bi mode, but there will be some sort of failure!)... and for all we know, trains may be delayed, into service.

Either way, I think we will see the HST's in GWR/FGW colours until 2019 at least!

-G

[1] http://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/Rail-News/gwml-electrification-dates-revealed

No, the HSTs won't go overnight... they will start to be phased out by GWR from summer 2017.

The pre-series Class 800s have been undergoing testing for more than a year now. There is another year of testing to go before the first set enters traffic.

All sets will undergo extensive fault-free mileage accumulation before entering service. And I might add that the Class 395s were introduced early, with good reliability from the start. The nature of the contract Agility Trains has with the DfT means it is in Hitachi's own interest to deliver IEPs that work from day one.

No, some of the wires from won't be in place for that timetable change. So what?
All the GWR fleet of IEP-type trains currently on order will now be delivered as bi-modes and all are due for delivery, the West Country AT300 fleet included, for that December 2018 timetable change.

Some HSTs may stay with GWR after December 2018 but, as noted above, should that happen, it will not be on front-rank express duties out of Paddington.

Rich McLean · 20 Jun 2016

co-tr-paul said:
We will get them down here from 2018 when timetable PZ to Ply goes twice per hour. 150/2 for branchlines.

The 158s are no longer going down there, and are now planned to be reformed into 2 car sets and run permanently as 4 car sets on Cardiff - Portsmouth

HSTs formed of 4 coaches are planned for Plymouth - Penzance and Cardiff - Taunton, with some early southbound and late northbound workings between Plymouth and Taunton creating a number of through services. There will be a combined 2tph on the Cornish Mainline with Intercity services combined.

If enough sets are retained, then it will be through services all day, but that's no longer looking likely and subject to DfT approval. As through services are not in the franchise spec and more of an aspiration of the franchisee, the DfT may only allow enough for self contained local services, with Intercity services catering for the Plymouth - Taunton corridoor, alongside the 2tph Devon Metro

Harbornite · 20 Jun 2016

Rich McLean said:
HSTs formed of 4 coaches are planned for Plymouth - Penzance and Cardiff - Taunton

This hasn't been confirmed, although it is realistic.

superalbs · 20 Jun 2016

What about the Tarka Line, is that still down for Class 158s?

MatthewRead · 20 Jun 2016

And what will happen to the 165 and 166 units where will they work if 158s are staying on the Cardiff-Portsmouth

greaterwest · 20 Jun 2016

MatthewRead said:
And what will happen to eh 165 and 166 units where will they work if 158s are staying on the Cardiff-Portsmouth

Cornish branches?
Torbay area?
Severn Beach line?
Bristol Parkway - Weston SM?
Westbury/Bristol - Worcester/Malvern services?
Potentially even Weymouth?

Of course, not forgetting that the 150/2s should be staying with GWR for the forseeable future.

Rich McLean · 20 Jun 2016

HST Gti's are not yet 100% confirmed. It's a proposal for 20 sets originally, but DfT have pushed this down to 11, but GWR are trying for enough sets to provide hourly through services from Cardiff to Penzance (now looking unlikely apart from a few services per day running end to end), as well as filling the gaps between the Class 802 London services between Plymouth and Penzance to create a 2tph frequency.

If the agreement is binned, coupled with electrification delays, GWR will not be able to deliver 2tph Plymouth - Penzance and will result in a reduction in capacity across the network, until more 16x can be moved west and/or new stock procured. Redundant 185s are out of the question. Possible that 159s could fill the gap in a cascade post new SWT franchise if DfT say no

16x and 158 stock to stay in the Bristol Area, with everything South of Taunton being 150/2 and short HSTs (if given the nod by DfT) by 2018.

greaterwest · 20 Jun 2016

Then there's the 16x stock still required for Thames Valley services and the North Downs, which aren't being electrified any time soon.

Rich McLean · 20 Jun 2016

greaterwest said:
Then there's the 16x stock still required for Thames Valley services and the North Downs, which aren't being electrified any time soon.

My point exactly about there not being enough stock for planned services without keeping some short HST rakes or new stock

co-tr-paul · 21 Jun 2016

Cornish branches will be 150/2. Turbos too wide ! On train catering for all mainline trains too. Short HST for Cornwall NOT confirmed. Will get more info next Monday after seeing bosses.... .

Rapidash · 21 Jun 2016

Do we need to make this the GWR DMU Thread like they have on WNXX?

If the 158s are staying put, does that mean the Barney-Axminster aspirations are as dead as a dodo? And will there be sufficient 150/2s to run Metro services with 4 coaches?

Why do I have that 'short end of the stick' feeling once more....? :lol:

Rhydgaled · 21 Jun 2016

Rich McLean said:
HSTs formed of 4 coaches are planned for Plymouth - Penzance and Cardiff - Taunton ...[snip]... subject to DfT approval.

:roll: 4-coach INTERCITY trains (IC125s) on local services and 5-car glorified regional express DMUs (800s and 802s) on INTERCITY services.:roll::roll:

If refurbishment of IC125s to meet 2020 regulations is now affordable (I thought the 802s were ordered because IC125s with power doors were considered too expensive), then it makes more sense to me to keep them in 2+8 formation on Paddington-Penzance/Plymouth services and use some of the 5-car 800s and/or 802s as regional express trains on Cardiff-Portsmouth and/or Exeter/Plymouth-Penzance.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Rapidash said:
Why do I have that 'short end of the stick' feeling once more....?

If you think FirstGWR have the short straw, spare a thought for the Wales & Borders franchise. Northern, ScotRail and Great Western have all recently been re-let and the new franchises have secured leases on most of the existing DMUs, except Pacers nobody wants and 153s which will require major modifications if to meet 2020 requirements, if at all. FirstGWR are scheduled withdraw 16 coaches of summer-Saturday capacity from the Pembroke Dock line from 2018. The new Wales & Borders franchise won't be starting until late 2018, giving them just six months to organise replacement capacity on the Pembroke Dock line for 2019's summer tourist season. Currently, Arriva Trains Wales run 2-car 150s on most Pembroke Dock services. To cover for the loss of the IC125s, I reckon they will need at least 4-car 23m stock (so the 150s currently used are no help) between Swansea and Tenby on several services, possibly even 5-car 23m stock.

Parallel · 21 Jun 2016

I think the 158s are well suited for Cardiff - Portsmouth services and the extra coach will be welcomed. 5-car 16x on the route probably won't happen then? I think 4 carriages on a normal day to day running of the line should be okay, however a couple of peak time services are already formed of four coaches (1x158/9 and 1x153) now (at least between Bristol and Westbury) and they are usually full and standing, but GWR will not have any 1-car trains to strengthen and some platforms are too short for 6-car formations.

Another concern is weekends when there is a busy event on somewhere along the line and GWR usually run a 158 and a 150 coupled together for strengthening. Perhaps they will keep some hybrid 3-car 158s but the only issue is if there aren't enough spare 158s to strengthen, there will also be no 150s in the area either. Can 166/165s couple to anything else?

If the 158s remain Cardiff - Portsmouth mainly, I can't see them going to Barnstaple, though wasn't there work for 16x to be cleared to Barnstaple and Axminster (But not Exmouth or Okehampton)? It all seems to be very up in the air at the moment. Short HSTs sound ideal for Plymouth - Penzance services but also sound expensive to run.

455driver · 21 Jun 2016

Rapidash said:
Do we need to make this the GWR DMU Thread like they have on WNXX?

If the 158s are staying put, does that mean the Barney-Axminster aspirations are as dead as a dodo? And will there be sufficient 150/2s to run Metro services with 4 coaches?

Why do I have that 'short end of the stick' feeling once more....?

Wait until they try and run the 4 coach 150s up to Barnstaple (or Exmouth), they wont fit on a lot of the platforms so expect lots of local door operation (messing up the timetable) or running them as 2 coach sets meaning full trains.

Parallel · 21 Jun 2016

455driver said:
Wait until they try and run the 4 coach 150s up to Barnstaple (or Exmouth), they wont fit on a lot of the platforms so expect lots of local door operation (messing up the timetable) or running them as 2 coach sets meaning full trains.

Just out of interest, which stations can't fit 4-car 150s between Exmouth and Barnstaple? I know Eggesford is one and St James' Park is another.

WelshBluebird · 21 Jun 2016

I can't see how 4x158 will be enough for the Bristol and Cardiff peaks. The rest of the day then yes, but during the peaks I think we'll just still see a fair bit of overcrowding. Though the 158's are better suited for the route than the 16x's are so every cloud and all that!

RPI · 21 Jun 2016

Don't believe the rumours of the 158's staying on the pompeys, the cascade will happen as planned but the HST GTI'S are a stop gap until enough 158's have been released, which will be once enough 166's have been refurbished etc etc

Nammer · 21 Jun 2016

So if the Turbos are to run the Cardiff to Portsmouth route, will they be run as 5 cars throughout? I take it they will be formed of 3 car 166 and 2 car 165 coupled together?

455driver · 21 Jun 2016

Parallel said:
Just out of interest, which stations can't fit 4-car 150s between Exmouth and Barnstaple? I know Eggesford is one and St James' Park is another.

I have just had a look and surprisingly its only-
Lapford is tight but it would just fit,
Eggesford as stated,
Portsmouth Arms, not even close but it isnt exactly busy,

St James Park, local door only unless

and thats it, at a few of the others there isnt much room for error but it will fit.

Looking at my maps some of the lengths are definitely wrong, for example it shows Commando as being 110m long, it is actually less than 80m but a 4x150 just fits if you put your cab off the end, there are a few others that dont seem right, a comparison with the sectional appendix seems to be in order.

I think I had better revoke my comments about 4x150 not fitting.

greaterwest · 21 Jun 2016

455driver said:
I have just had a look and surprisingly its only-
Lapford is tight but it would just fit,
Eggesford as stated,
Portsmouth Arms, not even close but it isnt exactly busy,

St James Park, local door only unless

and thats it, at a few of the others there isnt much room for error but it will fit.

Looking at my maps some of the lengths are definitely wrong, for example it shows Commando as being 110m long, it is actually less than 80m but a 4x150 just fits if you put your cab off the end, there are a few others that dont seem right, a comparison with the sectional appendix seems to be in order.

I think I had better revoke my comments about 4x150 not fitting.

Portsmouth Arms would be a local door job too, just as Dilton Marsh currently is?

How much effort would it take / how much money would it cost to retro fit the 150/2 fleet with SDO?

Xavi · 22 Jun 2016

St James Park is long enough in the down direction. Single door operation in the up direction has been commonplace for many years. The plan was 2 X 150/2 on half-hourly Exmouth to Paignton with 3-car 158 on Barnstaple to Exeter (or Axminster). So no new platform length issues. A possible solution to replace the delayed 158s is 3 X 153, perhaps reformed 3-car 155s, only one disabled toilet per 3 cars would be necessary.

DarloRich · 22 Jun 2016

It is a long time since I used Portsmouth Arms station but a 4 car pacer does ( did?) fit in the platform.

PS is the pub still open?

Stroud Valleys · 22 Jun 2016

If the 158s are reformed into 2 car sets, how many 2 car 158 sets would GWR have, and how many sets would be required run the current timetable, presumably that most 158s run as pairs as 4 car sets? Presumably there are some spares or flexibility to allow 6 car 158 sets at peak, or reduce to 2 car 158s at night. Would removing the Brightons make a difference?

greaterwest · 22 Jun 2016

Stroud Valleys said:
If the 158s are reformed into 2 car sets, how many 2 car 158 sets would GWR have, and how many sets would be required run the current timetable, presumably that most 158s run as pairs as 4 car sets? Presumably there are some spares or flexibility to allow 6 car 158 sets at peak, or reduce to 2 car 158s at night. Would removing the Brightons make a difference?

The Brightons are a franchise obligation, they can't just "remove" them. They may well run as a mini HST (are they cleared that way? Voyagers certainly aren't from what I've been told, but I don't know the specific measurements) or they could make it a 150/2 every time.

Those trains are quite popular, having travelled on them myself, and quite necessary now with the Southern strikes.

387star · 22 Jun 2016

Anyone know if the GWR refurbished 158 retains the same type seats ie a mix of richmond and originals? although I believe at least one 3 car is all richmond

The richmond seats are prone to broken springs and also fall off the seat frames very easily. Ideally grammars will be fitted a la EMT

PHILIPE · 22 Jun 2016

Stroud Valleys said:
If the 158s are reformed into 2 car sets, how many 2 car 158 sets would GWR have, and how many sets would be required run the current timetable, presumably that most 158s run as pairs as 4 car sets? Presumably there are some spares or flexibility to allow 6 car 158 sets at peak, or reduce to 2 car 158s at night. Would removing the Brightons make a difference?

A calculation shows:-

12x3 Car Sets ("False" ones = 36 carriages
2x2 Car Sets = 4 carriages
This gives us a total 40 carriages = 20 2xCar Sets.

Over and above, you have a 3 car "Proper" (158798).

However, 8 sets are required for the Portsmouth run so, if 4 Cars, 16 x 2 Cars would be required, leaving 4 over. The 158 (3 Car) could work one of the Brightons turning round at Bristol TM (times fit in) covering the Malvern bits serparately (? 16x). The 3 Car would have to be diagrammed to start and finish at Bristol. There would be 4 x 2 Car sets left over but one has to bear in mind leeway must be available for Maintenance/Repairs/Works.

Why worry ? The position changes almost every day and is going to depend on how electrification progresses and cascading down of EMUs.

Parallel · 23 Jun 2016

455driver said:
I have just had a look and surprisingly its only-
Lapford is tight but it would just fit,
Eggesford as stated,
Portsmouth Arms, not even close but it isnt exactly busy,

St James Park, local door only unless

and thats it, at a few of the others there isnt much room for error but it will fit.

Thanks for this. I alighted at Portsmouth Arms a few Sundays ago on 2x143 and all doors were platformed with space so that surprised me, though the unsurfaced part of the platform was used and 150s are longer than they look! (The station seemed to be a hive of activity the day I went, 3 people off, two people on and someone else waiting on the platform!)

DarloRich said:
It is a long time since I used Portsmouth Arms station but a 4 car pacer does ( did?) fit in the platform.

PS is the pub still open?

Yep, a 4 car pacer fitted when I was there a few weeks ago and the pub is very much still open.

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