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Revenue protection "stings".

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A few days ago, I witnessed a "sting" at my local station. My local station has no ticket facilities at all, passengers can only buy tickets on the train. Yet, when I arrived at the station, 6 RPIs blocked the exit and asked for tickets. Most of us had return tickets from wherever we'd come from, but do they do these stings on the way back as well? When most people probably wouldn't have a ticket until they get on the train.
 
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185

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Different companies do things differently. My company is supposed to do them in random places, but recently tends to send us to the same five places where numbers of fare evaders stopped are far higher - leaving other places with few operations. All about the money now :(
 

Tim R-T-C

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Different companies do things differently. My company is supposed to do them in random places, but recently tends to send us to the same five places where numbers of fare evaders stopped are far higher - leaving other places with few operations. All about the money now :(

Surely a fare sting is always all about the money?

No point doing it in areas where there are few evaders or it is a waste of time.
 

najaB

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Surely a fare sting is always all about the money?

No point doing it in areas where there are few evaders or it is a waste of time.
To a certain extent, yes. But, much like fixed speed cameras, if people know where to expect the revenue staff to be, they'll modify their behaviour to avoid them. For example, get off one stop earlier and catch the bus the rest of the way.

On the other hand, if revenue blocks are like Monty Phython's Spanish Inquisition, they'll more likely modify their behaviour by actually paying for their travel (or avoiding the train entirely) a win for the honest passenger either way.
 

tony6499

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Is it a sting or following intelligence that there is a high level of fare avoidance there ?
 

FenMan

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Presumably the relevant managers of the TOC concerned are compensated against achieving short term incremental revenue targets, so why would they make life difficult for themselves by choosing stations where fare evasion is low?
 

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On the other hand, if revenue blocks are like Monty Python's Spanish Inquisition

I did consider posting a picture of this as there are similarities with our uniforms.

But then I seen this :lol:
 

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swt_passenger

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Presumably the relevant managers of the TOC concerned are compensated against achieving short term incremental revenue targets, so why would they make life difficult for themselves by choosing stations where fare evasion is low?

Compensated for, surely?
 

FenMan

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"Compensated against revenue targets" = business jargon.

If revenue performance is low, so is the "compensation" that is "awarded" to the managers on performance related contracts i.e they receive less pay than if they had been successful.
 

Stigy

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A few days ago, I witnessed a "sting" at my local station. My local station has no ticket facilities at all, passengers can only buy tickets on the train. Yet, when I arrived at the station, 6 RPIs blocked the exit and asked for tickets. Most of us had return tickets from wherever we'd come from, but do they do these stings on the way back as well? When most people probably wouldn't have a ticket until they get on the train.
It makes sense to have blocks at stations such as this, as being an unstaffed station makes it vulnerable to fare evasion. It's a bit of a nightmare for passengers wishing to board trains admittedly, as I guess this means the staff then have to sell tickets for onward travel? For those that have already travelled though, it's slightly different.
 

AndrewE

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A few days ago, I witnessed a "sting" at my local station. My local station has no ticket facilities at all, passengers can only buy tickets on the train. Yet, when I arrived at the station, 6 RPIs blocked the exit and asked for tickets. Most of us had return tickets from wherever we'd come from, but do they do these stings on the way back as well? When most people probably wouldn't have a ticket until they get on the train.
Is it really a sting? In my understanding that involves setting a potential criminal up and nabbing him when he takes the bait.
This sounds like a simple ticket inspection of people alighting from trains having completed a journey. I guess the grippers wouldn't have interfered with anyone trying to board a train as there were no other options (unless they were selling tickets too, but that's a bit hard and I imagine there would have been some trains missed by people not expecting to have to dig out money between the car and the train!)

My take on it is if it catches out the freeloaders it can only benefit the rest of us.
 

infobleep

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Surely if they are there, they need to sell tickets to passengers about to board. If passengers miss their train them they should have allowed time to buy a ticket.

I joke of course.

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richw

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Compensated for, surely?

Business speak for bonus. My employer calls our bonus the individual compensation program.
Increase revenue, probably equals bigger bonus for the managers and potentially even the front line officers.
 
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I saw a 'sting' in Cornwall a few years back. From Penzance 2 coach train with 2 conductors. Stations like Hayle with no ticket office. At Truro (barriers!) they left the train. A new conductor boarded, and went down the train making eye contact with all passengers, asking 'any more tickets?'
At St Austell the RPI's had several people in their 'net'. They did not have woolly hats/hoodies lol, in fact some very well dressed. BTP present. (The RPI's were very polite)

I assume passengers found without a valid ticket were liable to prosecution (RORA) and could be reported in local papers.
 

Westnat

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I saw a 'sting' in Cornwall a few years back. From Penzance 2 coach train with 2 conductors. Stations like Hayle with no ticket office. At Truro (barriers!) they left the train. A new conductor boarded, and went down the train making eye contact with all passengers, asking 'any more tickets?'
At St Austell the RPI's had several people in their 'net'. They did not have woolly hats/hoodies lol, in fact some very well dressed. BTP present. (The RPI's were very polite)

I assume passengers found without a valid ticket were liable to prosecution (RORA) and could be reported in local papers.

That really isn't a sting. It's catching passengers who have deliberately avoided buying a ticket off one of the conductors.
 

jon0844

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While sting perhaps is the wrong word, I think using it in the 'railway sense' makes it easy to describe a special operation - especially those that are often done in conjunction with BTP to check for other things.

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185

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especially those that are often done in conjunction with BTP to check for other things.

A recent increase in joint ops with cops has resulted in a huge number of unexpected finds... many wanted on warrant, some with weapons, drugs and stolen property, breach of bail, immigration.... all discovered for not paying for a £3/4 ticket.

For the cops this are easy pickings, although the only problem we do find is as soon as they've got three or four arrests, we've lost them whilst the suspects are processed.

For the basics of revenue, they're invaluable for doing person checks for false details and for those with no intention of stopping, using violence to force past staff, they do get stopped. Rather abruptly too :lol:
 

Puffing Devil

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A recent increase in joint ops with cops has resulted in a huge number of unexpected finds... many wanted on warrant, some with weapons, drugs and stolen property, breach of bail, immigration.... all discovered for not paying for a £3/4 ticket.

For the cops this are easy pickings, although the only problem we do find is as soon as they've got three or four arrests, we've lost them whilst the suspects are processed.

For the basics of revenue, they're invaluable for doing person checks for false details and for those with no intention of stopping, using violence to force past staff, they do get stopped. Rather abruptly too :lol:

No surprises there - the is a correlation between driving untaxed and uninsured vehicles and other crimes. It looks as if the same applies to travelling without a valid ticket.
 

swt_passenger

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Business speak for bonus. My employer calls our bonus the individual compensation program.
Increase revenue, probably equals bigger bonus for the managers and potentially even the front line officers.

Yeah, I realised it was a bonus, just thought it odd use of the word 'against' in context, but I suppose 'against' has more than one meaning.
 

455driver

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I saw a 'sting' in Cornwall a few years back. From Penzance 2 coach train with 2 conductors. Stations like Hayle with no ticket office. At Truro (barriers!) they left the train. A new conductor boarded, and went down the train making eye contact with all passengers, asking 'any more tickets?'
At St Austell the RPI's had several people in their 'net'. They did not have woolly hats/hoodies lol, in fact some very well dressed. BTP present. (The RPI's were very polite)

I assume passengers found without a valid ticket were liable to prosecution (RORA) and could be reported in local papers.

They had been given a chance to buy a ticket but had failed to do so, slam dunk guilty!

People can call it a sting if they like but if somebody walks down the train and asks if anyone needs to buy a ticket and they dont, well tough! :lol:
It is a well choreographed set up! ;)
 
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Be3G

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Flamingo mentioned that method once too. I wish more TOCs would try it, because (in my opinion) it's perfect: anyone who genuinely did want a ticket but didn't buy one beforehand for whichever obscure reason gets to demonstrate their good intentions, and the fare-dodgers can have the book well and truly thrown at them.
 

455driver

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Flamingo mentioned that method once too. I wish more TOCs would try it, because (in my opinion) it's perfect: anyone who genuinely did want a ticket but didn't buy one beforehand for whichever obscure reason gets to demonstrate their good intentions, and the fare-dodgers can have the book well and truly thrown at them.
We work for the same TOC so it would appear to be standard practise.
 
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tsr

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We work for the same TOC so it would appear to be standard practise.

I've heard about it numerous times. I've been involved in variants elsewhere in the country, but not that specific type of sting. I do love this sort of stuff - it's so satisfying when it works!
 

ChiefPlanner

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NY Police Chief Bratton and his "broken windows" theory ....in my (now long ago experience) - special revenue exercises on the DC and North London lines yielded a host of people wanted for more serious offences such as mentioned above - bail charges , stolen property, serious drug possession (more than a bit of cannabis) , weapons etc. etc.

Real hot spots were Carpenders Park ,Wembley Central , Harlesden , Camden Road -where lack of proper revenue protection in the evenings made it feel a bit sketchy. The body language from normal passengers in seeing on train and station blocks was very positive (and the vast majority had tickets or had paid) .
 

Shempz

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The funniest and most pointless "sting" I ever saw was once at Ashurst station, on the Uckfield line. For anyone that does not know this station, its a very small station with no ticket facilities other than a Permit to Travel machine (which works about 50% of the time).

I got off one afternoon/evening, and there were about 6 or 7 Revenue staff there. It made me laugh as there were more of them than there were passengers getting off at Ashurst. Absolute waste of time and money by Southern.
 

6Gman

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The funniest and most pointless "sting" I ever saw was once at Ashurst station, on the Uckfield line. For anyone that does not know this station, its a very small station with no ticket facilities other than a Permit to Travel machine (which works about 50% of the time).

I got off one afternoon/evening, and there were about 6 or 7 Revenue staff there. It made me laugh as there were more of them than there were passengers getting off at Ashurst. Absolute waste of time and money by Southern.

Well, except that it makes the point that revenue checks can pop up even at the most unlikely places ...
 

PeterC

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The funniest and most pointless "sting" I ever saw was once at Ashurst station, on the Uckfield line. For anyone that does not know this station, its a very small station with no ticket facilities other than a Permit to Travel machine (which works about 50% of the time).
A flying visit just to get the word around that people might get checked there is probably worth the effort. The whole point is to keep people uncertain as to where they will be checked so that they don't try to dodge their fares in the first place.
 

Busaholic

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NY Police Chief Bratton and his "broken windows" theory ....in my (now long ago experience) - special revenue exercises on the DC and North London lines yielded a host of people wanted for more serious offences such as mentioned above - bail charges , stolen property, serious drug possession (more than a bit of cannabis) , weapons etc. etc.

Real hot spots were Carpenders Park ,Wembley Central , Harlesden , Camden Road -where lack of proper revenue protection in the evenings made it feel a bit sketchy. The body language from normal passengers in seeing on train and station blocks was very positive (and the vast majority had tickets or had paid) .

I can't provide references for this, but a 'stop' at Richmond on a District Line train about 20/25 years ago eventually led to the conviction of somebody for murder, and another for perverting the course of justice, made the more remarkable because the murder was only discovered when the murderer's house was searched. It was the subject of a radio programme at the time, and also involved a store detective from M&S whose detective work was pivotal.
 

tsr

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The funniest and most pointless "sting" I ever saw was once at Ashurst station, on the Uckfield line. For anyone that does not know this station, its a very small station with no ticket facilities other than a Permit to Travel machine (which works about 50% of the time).

I got off one afternoon/evening, and there were about 6 or 7 Revenue staff there. It made me laugh as there were more of them than there were passengers getting off at Ashurst. Absolute waste of time and money by Southern.

You would be rather surprised. There are a number of problems with people avoiding fares in the Ashurst area, as well as the more obvious usual suspects to and from Edenbridge Town and Buxted. I would welcome a long-ish sting for a few hours at Ashurst - you'll inevitably find a couple of people eligible for MG11s.

Silly, really, on their part. As you have correctly pointed out, anyone getting on or off will draw attention to themselves simply on account of its small size, and because it only has one exit. But they'd have little choice, as Cowden and Eridge are not terribly useful alternatives!

I'm not really sure why you'd need 6 or 7 staff though - 2 or 3 would do.
 
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