Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

Deepgreen · 13 Jul 2016

JamesTT said:
A first class ticket holder might welcome first class being policed more, plus cutting ticketless travel is good service for those that can be bothered to get organised and purchase a ticket before boarding

I will welcome that, but not at the cost of the abolition of guards. More and more people simply ignore first class restrictions these days or are so unaware of where they are that they blindly sit anywhere.

Let's have guards doing more ticket checks (not at the cost of their other duties) - I have seen countless guards over the last few years standing in door vestibules in first class on 377/6 and 377/7 main line workings for door operation and simply looking out of the window between stations rather than a quick ticket sweep in first.

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JamesTT · 13 Jul 2016

the sniper said:
Well at least it'll be good for somebody for the few years that the OBS will be about... that's if it does lead to increased tickets checks even while they exist.

I'm sure the passengers will see all this trouble and disruption as having been worthwhile when they see the benefits of the OBS grade...

You seem to be insinuating that you don't believe what Claire Perry said about not cutting staffing levels now and in the future. Surely you don't think politicians would be economical with truth.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Deepgreen said:
I will welcome that, but not at the cost of the abolition of guards. More and more people simply ignore first class restrictions these days or are so unaware of where they are that they blindly sit anywhere.

Let's have guards doing more ticket checks (not at the cost of their other duties) - I have seen countless guards over the last few years standing in door vestibules in first class on 377/6 and 377/7 main line workings for door operation and simply looking out of the window between stations rather than a quick ticket sweep in first.

If the clock could be wound back and GTR wanted to improve the customer service on board trains plus lower ticketless travel. What would have been a good alternative to the OBS role?

Deepgreen · 13 Jul 2016

JamesTT said:
You seem to be insinuating that you don't believe what Claire Perry said about not cutting staffing levels now and in the future. Surely you don't think politicians would be economical with truth.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If the clock could be wound back and GTR wanted to improve the customer service on board trains plus lower ticketless travel. What would have been a good alternative to the OBS role?

More, and better deployed, TTIs, plus more emphasis on getting guards to do inspections (assuming their other duties allow).

bnm · 13 Jul 2016

Permit a little light relief. Spotted this on Govia Thameslink Railway's Wikipedia page:

http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt68/bnm/GTR_zps2t1navdq.jpg

:lol:

Haywain · 13 Jul 2016

ComUtoR said:
In raw numbers I'd say about 37.5 (7,800 / *208) and that's before you need to factor in the **1,036 days leave they each need. Then minus off training days, assessments, medicals, briefings etc and you start to see why its better to pay the money for RDW than employ more staff.

*208 Days worked per year @ 4 days per week
** 37drivers x 28days leave

That's a lot of leave each!!

However, you need to add in sickness (probably at a rate of about 7.5%) plus an element of time missing for domestic and parental leave, maternity/paternity leave, disciplinary suspensions and investigations. And if Sundays and public holidays are rostered, rather than RDW, I would expect the leave allowance to reflect that and be more like 35 days per year.

The fact is that the unpredictable nature of some absences means that RDW will be necessary to have any hope of covering all turns at all times.

Heartland · 13 Jul 2016

There are several titles for Guard- they can be Guard, Conductor, Senior Conductor and Train Manager. It depends on which operator and in which circumstance, but opening doors and closing them (more importantly) safely is but one of them. On manned station platforms they also give indication to staff for departure. They are responsible for the safety of the train and deal with all issues related thereto. For Southern their stock is all of the opening type, but in the cases where a door does not open, through a fault, there is a better chance (though not always) of the "guard" noticing the problem and prevent over carriage. On Southern there are different factors like units being full and standing where it is a challenge to get to the door in order to alight at the correct stop. Yes it would be nice for a complete list of duties is put together so that the Rail Minister can understand what she ought to talk about

Xenophon PCDGS · 13 Jul 2016

bnm said:
Permit a little light relief. Spotted this on Govia Thameslink Railway's Wikipedia page:

http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt68/bnm/GTR_zps2t1navdq.jpg

I have just looked at that Wikipedia page and there is no such mention of what you state to be.

I suppose there will always be those with a warped sense of humour...

ainsworth74 · 13 Jul 2016

Paul Sidorczuk said:
I have just looked at that Wikipedia page and there is no such mention of what you state to be.

Looking at the pages edit history it appears that the mention was added very early this morning and was fixed shortly before midday.

OxtedL · 13 Jul 2016

It was fixed within 7 minutes of bnm posting on here! (Wikipedia edit times are listed in UTC, i.e. GMT)

HH · 13 Jul 2016

Sounds like Big Brother is watching...

NSEFAN · 13 Jul 2016

Wikipedia is getting good at detecting vandalism in general, actually.

FordFocus · 14 Jul 2016

JamesTT said:
A first class ticket holder might welcome first class being policed more, plus cutting ticketless travel is good service for those that can be bothered to get organised and purchase a ticket before boarding

If this OBS replacement ever makes its way onto trains, when Horton and Co have left the building then history tells us the grade will slowly disappear until eventually there will be even less ticket checks in first.

Personally I think first class should be abolished on commuter trains, it's outdated.

HH · 15 Jul 2016

I might have missed it, but I didn't see anyone link to this report by RSSB, "RSSB research projects find no increased safety risk from DOO"

No increased risk from properly implemented Driver Only Operation has been detected in any research carried out by RSSB or its predecessor organisation 'Rail Safety'.

A number of projects have been published by RSSB over the last 15 years on various aspects of DOO (Driver Only Operation) on passenger trains. None of these pieces of work has identified any increased risk from dispatching a train without a guard being present - providing the correct procedures have been followed. The removal of any possible miscommunication, which could exist between driver and guard could, potentially, deliver some safety benefits.

RSSBs Interim Director of Standards Tom Lee said: As part of our work under the industry-wide Platform Train Interface strategy, RSSB provides training and guidance for staff and safety information for passengers to help reduce the risks of accidents occurring when people board or alight from trains. We are currently running a number of projects which will provide further independent research, guidance and tools to help our members better manage those risks and to improve performance at the same time.

There are a number of other links on the page.

Captain Chaos · 15 Jul 2016

Shouldn't that report simply say 'Study finds DOO is safer than Driver Guard operation according to study made by people who stand to benefit financially from removing the Guard from the train'?

The RSSB reminds me in some ways of those Tobacco "research" companies. They say that removing the Guard would remove the risk of miscommunication. But even if that were the case at least the driver would be able to have a chance to spot the error from the Guard. With the driver on his own, any mistake is final.

Haig paxton · 15 Jul 2016

I would like GTR to release the figures of the number of times drivers have opened the doors on the wrong side or have stopped with coaches hanging off the platform and opened the doors. Of course many of these incidents will go unreported but it is still a significant safety issue that affects DOO services.

bnm · 15 Jul 2016

Captain Chaos said:
Shouldn't that report simply say 'Study finds DOO is safer than Driver Guard operation according to study made by people who stand to benefit financially from removing the Guard from the train'?

How do the RSSB stand to gain financially?

Captain Chaos · 15 Jul 2016

bnm said:
How do the RSSB stand to gain financially?

Well, one Charles Horton is a board member. You can't mean to tell me he's been pushing this agenda through for his love of the railways, surely?

cjmillsnun · 15 Jul 2016

DarloRich said:
Did I see a statement from Claire Perry indicating no one would loose pay or thier job but refusing entirely to refer to guards as guards instead referring to them as door supervisors?

It also, again, tried to make out this dispute was solely about who pushes a button. sigh.

Claire Perry's commitment is now meaningless as she is no longer in that role.

DarloRich · 15 Jul 2016

cjmillsnun said:
Claire Perry's commitment is now meaningless as she is no longer in that role.

well hopefully the next cab on the rank has a better grasp of the issues. I doubt it somehow.

Xenophon PCDGS · 15 Jul 2016

bnm said:
How do the RSSB stand to gain financially?

Don't our website members just love to use acronyms wherever they can...

The organisation that I am aware of with an acronym of RSSB is that of Radha Soami Satsang Beas, which is a philosophical organisation based on the spiritual teachings of all religions..:roll:

Domh245 · 15 Jul 2016

Paul Sidorczuk said:
Don't our website members just love to use acronyms wherever they can...

The organisation that I am aware of with an acronym of RSSB is that of Radha Soami Satsang Beas, which is a philosophical organisation based on the spiritual teachings of all religions..:roll:

Would you prefer that the aforementioned organisation was referred to at all times as the Rail Safety and Standards Board?

hounddog · 15 Jul 2016

Captain Chaos said:
Well, one Charles Horton is a board member. You can't mean to tell me he's been pushing this agenda through for his love of the railways, surely?

You don't like the facts so try to discredit the source?

DarloRich · 15 Jul 2016

hounddog said:
You don't like the facts so try to discredit the source?

it is a fair point - one that should have been tested by the select committee.

Xenophon PCDGS · 15 Jul 2016

Domh245 said:
Would you prefer that the aforementioned organisation was referred to at all times as the Rail Safety and Standards Board?

Is that not its official name?

XDM · 15 Jul 2016

Captain Chaos said:
Well, one Charles Horton is a board member. You can't mean to tell me he's been pushing this agenda through for his love of the railways, surely?

He does love railways. Someone of his capabilities could easily get a job away from the rails with much more money & zero flack.
Look at his grilling on the select committee website. There was a little smile of pure pleasure & pride when he was at last able to talk about something positive,the new 700 units. And you can spot a similar little smile of delight when he talked about the 4th down track coming back soon at Bermondsey junc. He is a rail enthusiast through & through. This must have been a terrible time for him & his family. Hopefully he will be vindicated in late August! We even had a savage saying he wouldn't deter thugs from beating Mr Horton up in a dark alley.

Deepgreen · 15 Jul 2016

XDM said:
He does love railways. Someone of his capabilities could easily get a job away from the rails with much more money & zero flack.
Look at his grilling on the select committee website. There was a little smile of pure pleasure & pride when he was at last able to talk about something positive,the new 700 units. And you can spot a similar little smile of delight when he talked about the 4th down track coming back soon at Bermondsey junc. He is a rail enthusiast through & through. This must have been a terrible time for him & his family. Hopefully he will be vindicated in late August! We even had a savage saying he wouldn't deter thugs from beating Mr Horton up in a dark alley.

This may well be true (and I knew him a long time ago when he was with LU, along with Alex Foulds) but the handling of the current issue has been unhelpful, even if directed by the DfT, and someone in CH's position must expect to receive a lot of flack in such circumstances.

Wolfie · 15 Jul 2016

XDM said:
He does love railways. Someone of his capabilities could easily get a job away from the rails with much more money & zero flack.
Look at his grilling on the select committee website. There was a little smile of pure pleasure & pride when he was at last able to talk about something positive,the new 700 units. And you can spot a similar little smile of delight when he talked about the 4th down track coming back soon at Bermondsey junc. He is a rail enthusiast through & through. This must have been a terrible time for him & his family. Hopefully he will be vindicated in late August! We even had a savage saying he wouldn't deter thugs from beating Mr Horton up in a dark alley.

My bold

This confirms that you either are him or his mother - no one else could be that obsequious about an individual who inept and incompetent does not begin to describe and who has now been involved in both of the two worst ever franchises. He couldn't run a bath, let alone a booze-up!

Oh, for the record I will not accept your insults - I am not a savage - and I have instituted a complaint against you. If I offered my honest opinion about you I would likely be barred.

PakRail · 15 Jul 2016

Mr Horton cannot be vindicated. Someone of his capabilities should not be in charge of a railway franchise again. First Connex and now Southern, this guy has the Midas touch of turning everything rotten.

This emergency service that has now been implemented on Southern is the actual service they should have been running from the off. The were running to many trains with too little staff and relied too much on RDW and overtime. Now that the staff are fighting back it has revealed just how rotten the GTR management actually are when they blame their mismanagement on their own staff members.

Dave1987 · 15 Jul 2016

Deleted

Carlisle · 15 Jul 2016

PakRail said:
The were running to many trains with too little staff and relied too much on RDW and overtime. Now that the staff are fighting back it has revealed just how rotten the GTR management actually are when they blame their mismanagement on their own staff members.

I think your hugely oversimplifying the realities on the ground, bear in mind that the unions involved here have been well aware changes like this were highly likely to be proposed soon after the government adopted the Mc Nulty report in full a few years back,in response to this and previous campaigns RMT chose to significantly harden its opposition, long before the current OBS row broke out, indicating they've invested plenty of time and thought into how they wish to fight this battle

Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

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