Qualified Driver Move

rob12 · 17 Jul 2016

So i have posted a couple of times now with regards to qualified moves, so thought i would just post for anyone in a similar position.

I have been a qualified driver now for 'just'' under 12 months and have been thinking of move for a while now as i would really like to go back home or at least try to get as close to it as i can.

For anyone else where ever you maybe unfortunately this is not as easy as one would think, I have been in touch with all the TOCS who operate in the north and not one of them yet will entertain me until i have at least 2/3 years experience under my belt? I have a completely clean safety record and feel my experience as a metro driver has put me in good stead for any other toc who ( which is most of them in the north) have a far less strenuous stopping pattern nor cover as many different routes as i do being a first year driver.

Personally i dont understand why another year or so makes that much difference. My point is that anybody looking to get into the driving role by any means make sure you are fully aware and prepared to be away from wherever you are at the moment for a long time, You are not guaranteed to be qualified and then move back after just a couple of years unfortunately. I am probably looking at 4/5 years with my current toc before getting a move including training (12 months)

While i am grateful and very pleased to have become a driver and i also like a vast majority of the fellas at my depot, in hindsight i wish i had maybe held out for a TOC in the north rather than just being desperate to get into the job, Which i love by the way...... most of time!!!

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Cherry_Picker · 17 Jul 2016

TOCs invest a lot in training drivers and tend not to enjoy seeing someone come in, get their key and then swan off to pastures new without so much as a thank you. I'm not saying it's definitely there but I wouldn't be surprised if there was some kind of gentleman's agreement between TOCs not to take guys who are doing precisely that.

ComUtoR · 17 Jul 2016

Unfortunately a year with a clean license is pretty meaningless in the grand scheme of things. Some will want a more proven safety record.

It stops professional route learners.
You are also potentially still a Probationary Driver.
There is a question of repaying training costs if within a set period.
TOC return on their investment
New Drivers are a higher risk to a TOC
Contractual obligations

Many people have multiple applications in and many state they are willing to move. I'm glad you have posted as it highlights that location is very important and just applying anywhere to get the job doesn't always work out.

Stick it out and maybe you will like where you live and build yourself a home and family.

WCMLaddict · 17 Jul 2016

No wonder if you're still within your PQA period.

Johncleesefan · 17 Jul 2016

Does your contract not state the minimum time you must serve before freely moving? Usually 3 years (pqa) I believe.

I can completely see why no one is entertaining it, for that reason alone I may add

irish_rail · 17 Jul 2016

Ha Ive done ten years with a completely clean record and don't get a look in if I apply for anything, you've a long way to go if u want to go ooop north!

Andy-mc · 17 Jul 2016

I know people in similar positions, if it was the other way round and you were moving down south you wouldn't have a problem, GWR, southeastern, southern and thameslink are all happy to take qualified drivers
I'm looking to possibly move further north at some point although the only company I've seen that asks for minimum experience is cross country who want at least 18months (fully qualified), the only barrier I hit is companies asking for you to be living within 45mins at the point of applying

OpsWeb · 17 Jul 2016

3 years used to be a ATOC Good Practice guide for qualified transfers.

I know Northern have a minimum requirement of 3 years post-qualified as do SWT. Not sure how likely they are to employ anyone who has been say driving for 3 years and 1 day...or whether they just take the most experienced when vacancies arise?

Grafter1900 · 17 Jul 2016

edited

OpsWeb · 17 Jul 2016

I know colleagues who have gone to XC with 3-4 years experience, but I don't know if Northern realistically employ people with "only" 3 years post-qual experience.

I'd guess places like Leeds and Manch might take on some newer drivers.

red2005 · 18 Jul 2016

Northern is 3 years END OF!.......called them last week and that's what they told me.

OpsWeb · 18 Jul 2016

red2005 said:
Northern is 3 years END OF!.......called them last week and that's what they told me.

Yes, they are. Im not sure if in reality they employ people with 3 years experience, or whether they look for people with say 5-10-15 years experience (like Virgin etc...).

It all stems from a ATOC Good Practice guide from years ago, which stated a train driver is only "fully" qualified after there third year (to allow for PQA1, 2 & 3). The Good Practice Guide was rescinded a few years ago and a lot of TOC's reduced there qualification period to two years (like Thameslink, Southern, Chiltern etc...).

Some companies like Great Western only look for one year driving experience, but SWT, EMT, Scotrail and Northern all look for 3 years.

If its any conciliation things might be changing in the future as the RSSB conducted a study, that found there that "longer driving experience" does not equal "safer driver", which lead some some TOCS (namely XC) reducing there experience time to just 18 months.

Aivilo · 18 Jul 2016

Doesn't matter what experience you have getting on up north is a challenge in itself.

FYI do your three years or you'll be paying back training costs

OpsWeb · 18 Jul 2016

Aivilo said:
Doesn't matter what experience you have getting on up north is a challenge in itself.

FYI do your three years or you'll be paying back training costs

Why is that? Even for depots like Leeds, Sheffield or Manchester?

Quickthorn · 18 Jul 2016

OpsWeb said:
Yes, they are. Im not sure if in reality they employ people with 3 years experience, or whether they look for people with say 5-10-15 years experience (like Virgin etc...).

It all stems from a ATOC Good Practice guide from years ago, which stated a train driver is only "fully" qualified after there third year (to allow for PQA1, 2 & 3). The Good Practice Guide was rescinded a few years ago and a lot of TOC's reduced there qualification period to two years (like Thameslink, Southern, Chiltern etc...).

Some companies like Great Western only look for one year driving experience, but SWT, EMT, Scotrail and Northern all look for 3 years.

If its any conciliation things might be changing in the future as the RSSB conducted a study, that found there that "longer driving experience" does not equal "safer driver", which lead some some TOCS (namely XC) reducing there experience time to just 18 months.

Hi,

Do you have a link to the RSSB study? (I'm genuinely interested)

To the OP:

I have similar feelings to you. I moved down "sarf" to get a foot in the door, but don't really like it here. A lot of the problem is housing (I'm on my second address in less than 3 years already), but I also miss where I used to live. However, I do feel I ought to show a bit of loyalty to the TOC who took me on; part of the reason is that I couldn't get in with Northern as a trainee because they wanted you to live within 1 hour of your depot, and this rule was in place because they were fed up of people taking the training and then moving on.

For what it's worth, my contract expects me to do 2 years qualified at my starting depot before moving on, either internally or otherwise.

OpsWeb · 18 Jul 2016

Quickthorn said:
Hi,

Do you have a link to the RSSB study? (I'm genuinely interested)

I'm afraid I don't, as I got it through internal communications (from memory it came through the Train Driver Recruitment Steering Group if that's any help).

It basically read along the lines that a driver is more at risk of error between 0-2 years experience and 7-12 years, and outwith those time frames there is no connection between experience and risk. But having said that there are a lot more trains operating in the last few years than say 7 years ago so I'm not sure that would skew the data.

Gemz91 · 18 Jul 2016

red2005 said:
Northern is 3 years END OF!.......called them last week and that's what they told me.

I have an email from them from about six months ago telling me that they do not have a minimum amount of time a driver has to have been qualified before they would consider them.

Nuttytoffee · 18 Jul 2016

I recently moved to Chiltern with 17 months qualified at time of interview. A friend has just joined Cross Country with 2 years experience and I know of two lads that went to TPE with about 12 and 5 months driving under their belt. I also had an interview with Virgin who only required 6 months clear of your probation date.

OpsWeb · 18 Jul 2016

Nuttytoffee said:
I recently moved to Chiltern with 17 months qualified at time of interview. A friend has just joined Cross Country with 2 years experience and I know of two lads that went to TPE with about 12 and 5 months driving under their belt. I also had an interview with Virgin who only required 6 months clear of your probation date.

That is very encouraging. I spoke to Northern today who said it is defo 3 years they look for. When asked about relocating - they said people are welcome to apply, but driver managers tend to sift applications based on locations (so basically relocation is frowned upon) - which is a bizarre approach to have for qualified drivers.

rob12 · 19 Jul 2016

Nuttytoffee said:
I recently moved to Chiltern with 17 months qualified at time of interview. A friend has just joined Cross Country with 2 years experience and I know of two lads that went to TPE with about 12 and 5 months driving under their belt. I also had an interview with Virgin who only required 6 months clear of your probation date.

Yhea that is encouraging!! You must have a nice telephone voice !!!

lol Because I didnt get any where near where you got with your inquiries,
In terms of loyalty, I do get that and i feel obliged to give them a decent amount of my time, But didnt really think i would have to do 3/4 years before moving on but as i said nuttytoffee's post is encouraging. XC would be great if they took 18 months and virgin only 6 ... happy days, but i didnt get that info.
Not sure about training costs IE paying them back, i imagine they would just not pay you on your 3 months notice as a way of clawing back costs if thats legal? rather giving you a bill for remaining costs,

To the other post.... '' down sarf'' lol almost as bad as being ''oop north'' which could be anywhere from Birmingham to the outer Hebrides, besides I cant get a decent pork pie down ere and the tap water tastes like sewage!!! other than that i love it, just home sick

red2005 · 19 Jul 2016

OpsWeb said:
That is very encouraging. I spoke to Northern today who said it is defo 3 years they look for. When asked about relocating - they said people are welcome to apply, but driver managers tend to sift applications based on locations (so basically relocation is frowned upon) - which is a bizarre approach to have for qualified drivers.

Yup 3 years is what they told me......

Regarding relocation I don't think they're alone there, there's not many companies out there now that really entertain applications where relocation is a factor. They've probably had aggro in the past.

ChrisTheRef · 19 Jul 2016

rob12 said:
So i have posted a couple of times now with regards to qualified moves, so thought i would just post for anyone in a similar position.

I have been a qualified driver now for 'just'' under 12 months and have been thinking of move for a while now as i would really like to go back home or at least try to get as close to it as i can.

For anyone else where ever you maybe unfortunately this is not as easy as one would think, I have been in touch with all the TOCS who operate in the north and not one of them yet will entertain me until i have at least 2/3 years experience under my belt? I have a completely clean safety record and feel my experience as a metro driver has put me in good stead for any other toc who ( which is most of them in the north) have a far less strenuous stopping pattern nor cover as many different routes as i do being a first year driver.

Personally i dont understand why another year or so makes that much difference. My point is that anybody looking to get into the driving role by any means make sure you are fully aware and prepared to be away from wherever you are at the moment for a long time, You are not guaranteed to be qualified and then move back after just a couple of years unfortunately. I am probably looking at 4/5 years with my current toc before getting a move including training (12 months)

While i am grateful and very pleased to have become a driver and i also like a vast majority of the fellas at my depot, in hindsight i wish i had maybe held out for a TOC in the north rather than just being desperate to get into the job, Which i love by the way...... most of time!!!

Don't listen to all the negativity. I moved after 10 months qualified. Another person on my course moved after 2 years and a third one after about 2.5 years qualified.

It can and has been done.

Aivilo · 19 Jul 2016

ChrisTheRef said:
Don't listen to all the negativity. I moved after 10 months qualified. Another person on my course moved after 2 years and a third one after about 2.5 years qualified.

It can and has been done.

Was it not in any of your contracts to repay training costs of you left within three years of obtaining your key.

OpsWeb · 19 Jul 2016

ChrisTheRef said:
Don't listen to all the negativity. I moved after 10 months qualified. Another person on my course moved after 2 years and a third one after about 2.5 years qualified.

It can and has been done.

More encouraging news for people in this situation. Out of interest did you move to a northern based operator or a southern based operator?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

red2005 said:
Yup 3 years is what they told me......

Regarding relocation I don't think they're alone there, there's not many companies out there now that really entertain applications where relocation is a factor. They've probably had aggro in the past.

I understand its a problem for trainee posts but in some regions where there is only one TOC - qualified train drivers will have to relocate to work for them. Don't forget a TOC is saving thousands on employing a qualified driver over a trainee so IMO relocation shouldn't be that much of an issue for the employing TOC (although certain TOC's seem to think drivers should move to their area on the off chance they can get a job with them) provided a applicant is serious about the move.

ChrisTheRef · 21 Jul 2016

OpsWeb said:
More encouraging news for people in this situation. Out of interest did you move to a northern based operator or a southern based operator?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I understand its a problem for trainee posts but in some regions where there is only one TOC - qualified train drivers will have to relocate to work for them. Don't forget a TOC is saving thousands on employing a qualified driver over a trainee so IMO relocation shouldn't be that much of an issue for the employing TOC (although certain TOC's seem to think drivers should move to their area on the off chance they can get a job with them) provided a applicant is serious about the move.

Two of us went north, one went south.

E&W Lucas · 21 Jul 2016

ChrisTheRef said:
Don't listen to all the negativity. I moved after 10 months qualified. Another person on my course moved after 2 years and a third one after about 2.5 years qualified.

It can and has been done.

Seconded.
I moved to one of the more desireable jobs in the industry, less than three years qualified. Plenty of others have done similar, before and since.

The two years thing is largely down to extra work for the DTMs in monitoring a PQ driver. If they can avoid that, then it makes sense for them to do so. Beyond that, in my experience, the attitude and approach of the individual, counts for more than years in the seat.

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