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Contrasting door colours on rail vehicles

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GM228

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Despite seemingly becoming the norm accross Europe would I be correct in saying that contrasting coloured doors on rolling stick is a UK group standard requirement originally and not actually legally required or is this now an EU legal requirement for passenger access purposes?
 
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E_Reeves

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Despite seemingly becoming the norm accross Europe would I be correct in saying that contrasting coloured doors on rolling stick is a UK group standard requirement originally and not actually legally required or is this now an EU legal requirement for passenger access purposes?

I'm not sure whether it is a requirement (I wouldn't think it is) but most companies do this so that boarding the train is easy for the passengers, especially disabled people, and for many safety reasons. This is very similar to the yellow patch that you see on the front of all UK trains.
 

GM228

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I'm not sure whether it is a requirement (I wouldn't think it is) but most companies do this so that boarding the train is easy for the passengers, especially disabled people, and for many safety reasons. This is very similar to the yellow patch that you see on the front of all UK trains.

Yellow panels are required under the group standards, although there are now exemptions for trains with certain headlights.

Answered my own question, contrasting doors required under EU PRM TSI Regulations.
 

rf_ioliver

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Despite seemingly becoming the norm accross Europe would I be correct in saying that contrasting coloured doors on rolling stick is a UK group standard requirement originally and not actually legally required or is this now an EU legal requirement for passenger access purposes?

When we leave the EU we can have train doors of any colour!!! Brexit now!!! Outrageous! Eurocrats decide colour of UK train doors! Quick, get me a copy of the DM!!! <breathes into paper bag> ...

:)

Erm, no and nothing to do with the EU. As far as I can find this comes from the UK's disability requirements for visually impaired people. There might be reference to mechanisms for assisting visually impaired people in an EU directive somewhere, but as it would be a directive its implementation would always be decided by each sovereign government.

Looking at Finnish trains, I wouldn't call the colour scheme here "contrasting" - and given that certain times of the year everything is ditry snow grey, plus Finland's governments obsession with implementing anything hint of an idea from the EU to the extreme...

Green doors on white and green - Dm12 DMU and Pendolino:
http://www.vaunut.org/kuva/94903
http://www.vaunut.org/kuva/111198

White doors on white - Intercity livery:
http://www.vaunut.org/kuva/105315

White on white - Allegro
http://www.vaunut.org/kuva/81409

t.

Ian
 

LeeLivery

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Yellow panels are required under the group standards, although there are now exemptions for trains with certain headlights.

Answered my own question, contrasting doors required under EU PRM TSI Regulations.

You sure about that? DB and Renfe seem to totally ignore that on their Velaros.
 

43021HST

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... And don't forget DBs ICEs
0,,16479764_303,00.jpg


Do we know for certain if contrasting doors on trains provides any assistance for those with visual impairments?

We haven't applied this rule to buses, coaches or for public buildings.

In fact I find certain other measures to assist those with visual impairments, such as contrasting coloured hand rails, and brighter lighting, do not help those with who struggle with visual sensory issues, particularly those with Autism, where all the extra visual stimulation from the variety of colours and extra bright lighting found on public transport often overwhelms and confuses the individual.
 
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sng7

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... And don't forget DBs ICEs
0,,16479764_303,00.jpg




We haven't applied this rule to buses, coaches or for public buildings.

In fairness the door on a bus/coach is at a fixed location the front corner (some places have multiple doors but at least one there) and the driver opens the door which provides the contrast. Where as different trains have differnt door locations and you have to press the button yourselve so when locating the door it would just appear to be part of the carriage side if you struggled to see the button/signage
 

Western Lord

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In fairness the door on a bus/coach is at a fixed location the front corner (some places have multiple doors but at least one there) and the driver opens the door which provides the contrast. Where as different trains have differnt door locations and you have to press the button yourselve so when locating the door it would just appear to be part of the carriage side if you struggled to see the button/signage

In the early days of the front entrance double decker in London the DMS and other types had yellow entrance doors while the centre exit doors remained red.
 

swt_passenger

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Yellow panels are required under the group standards, although there are now exemptions for trains with certain headlights.

It's written the opposite way round now though. The current group standard does not require yellow panels unless a train is not fitted with the latest spec headlights. In other words the requirement for a yellow panel is now an exemption.

Minor point however.
 

GM228

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You sure about that? DB and Renfe seem to totally ignore that on their Velaros.

Technically it dosn't apply to any train which entered service prior to 2007 I believe but is legally required on anything after 2007.


Found this from an earlier discussion: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=85757

Can someone actually find the specific statements in the PRM TSI standards regarding door colour? I've searched the following and can't find anything explicit...

http://www.era.europa.eu/Document-Register/Pages/PRM-TSI.aspx

t.

Ian

It's in them since 2007, here's the latest.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:OJ.L_.2014.356.01.0110.01.ENG

2.2.3.2. Exterior doors
(3)
All exterior passenger doorways shall be marked on the outside in a way that gives a contrast to the vehicle body-side surrounding them.
 
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AndyPJG

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Found this from an earlier discussion: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=85757

Can someone actually find the specific statements in the PRM TSI standards regarding door colour? I've searched the following and can't find anything explicit...

http://www.era.europa.eu/Document-Register/Pages/PRM-TSI.aspx

t.

Ian

Extract:
4.2.2.3.2. Exterior doors

(1)
All exterior passenger doorways shall have a minimum clear useable width of 800 mm when open.
(2)
On trains with a design speed lower than 250 km/h, wheelchair access doors offering a level access as defined in point 2.3 shall have a minimum clear useable width of 1 000 mm when open.
(3)
All exterior passenger doorways shall be marked on the outside in a way that gives a contrast to the vehicle body-side surrounding them.
 

GM228

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Erm, no and nothing to do with the EU. As far as I can find this comes from the UK's disability requirements for visually impaired people. There might be reference to mechanisms for assisting visually impaired people in an EU directive somewhere, but as it would be a directive its implementation would always be decided by each sovereign government.

It comes from the EU Regulation I linked not a directive so dosn't need to be implemented into legislation and can't be decided upon by national governments.
 

Domh245

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So why do DB's brand new IC double deckers and ICEs not have contrasting doors?

Note the wording. "Gives a contrast" =/= contrasting. Evidently breaking the bodyside stripe is a sufficient enough contrast to the rest of the body to satisfy the relevant people.
 

edwin_m

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The contrasting door colour requirement first appeared in the RVAR regulations,so were mandatory for all rolling stock put into service after about 1997. The PRM TSI supersedes these for the main line railway. All older stock is also now so painted, with a tiny number of exceptions mainly relating to charter stock. This is either because an operator wanted a consistent livery across their whole fleet or because they decided it was a good idea that would cost them almost nothing.
 

tbtc

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Note the wording. "Gives a contrast" =/= contrasting. Evidently breaking the bodyside stripe is a sufficient enough contrast to the rest of the body to satisfy the relevant people.

That's my understanding.

For example, the Virgin Voyager doors are different to the rest of the side at platform distance, even though they are harder to distinguish from a distance (greyish silver against black and white stripes that look relatively grey from further away).

My hunch is that the TOCs are going for something risk averse that goes well above/beyond the actual requirements, in the way that I can't think of much (any?) stock that has just a 1m sq yellow patch at the front - operators generally have significantly more yellow than the minimum required.
 

SpacePhoenix

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Had NSE, Regional Railways and Intercity (Swallow/Executive) liveries lasted long enough to be covered by the regs, what colour would each likely have had the doors?
 

MK Tom

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The new GWR livery strikes me as having no real door contrast. They're silver against green but with the two shades of green it doesn't stand out. Not that I mind, obviously it must be compliant with whatever the regs are.
 

Peter Mugridge

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Note the wording. "Gives a contrast" =/= contrasting. Evidently breaking the bodyside stripe is a sufficient enough contrast to the rest of the body to satisfy the relevant people.

I wonder... would it satisfy the rules to have a row of LEDS fitted around the doorway which would light up only when the door is cut in?
 

alexl92

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My hunch is that the TOCs are going for something risk averse that goes well above/beyond the actual requirements, in the way that I can't think of much (any?) stock that has just a 1m sq yellow patch at the front - operators generally have significantly more yellow than the minimum required.

I saw something from a guy who designs rail liveries recently - he said that seeing as there has to be yellow on the front, the designers try and build it in as if it's part of the livery anyway to improve the all-round image, rather than just throwing some yellow on there as an afterthought. I think that's why they use more than the absolutel minimum.

Although, didn't BR try and get away with just painting the end corridor door of a DMU yellow and leaving the rest of the front white, and they were told it didn't count?

Had NSE, Regional Railways and Intercity (Swallow/Executive) liveries lasted long enough to be covered by the regs, what colour would each likely have had the doors?

Good question! Apparently the reason that GWR didn't paint a whole HST set in BR Intercity Blue/Yellow to go with 43002 was because the lack of contrasting door colours would fall foul of current regs.I can't imagine what colour would work for the doors on that livery either, to be honest.
 

physics34

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One of my biggest bugbears. Liveries now suffer because of this "legislation", and stripes no longer work if they are broken up by different coloured doors etc.

I would harshly say that it helps a very small minority of people, and should those people be unassisted on a dangerous station platform anyway, with many obstacles including a four foot drop onto the track?

I just think its overkill.
 

Rail Blues

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Goodstion! Apparently the reason that GWR didn't paint a whole HST set in BR Intercity Blue/Yellow to go with 43002 was because the lack of contrasting door colours would fall foul of current regs.I can't imagine what colour would work for the doors on that livery either, to be honest.

If that's the case, that's a real pity. A whole set would have looked great.

In terms of hypothetical BR livery door colours. Contrasting doors often seem to be done out in a colour that features in a minor/secondary way on the main body of the train. So:

HST set in rail blue? Yellow to match the front?

Swallow livery might have been red to tie in with the body stripe.

On the same basis Regional Railway and Scotrail stock could have had a pale blue door.


Mind you at one point the Centro liveried 323s had the top half of their doors painted yellow and the bottom half remained the same as the bodyside, so they may well have been the approach on all stock which shared a similar design template.
 

najaB

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I would harshly say that it helps a very small minority of people, and should those people be unassisted on a dangerous station platform anyway, with many obstacles including a four foot drop onto the track?
Lovely. 'How dare those people ruin my nice pretty train by having the nerve to want to live an independent life'.

I'm surprised you don't say that they should be in a home where they don't get in everyone's way. [emoji35]
 

43096

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If that's the case, that's a real pity. A whole set would have looked great.

That's what they would have you believe. The real reason was cost - it's a lot cheaper to apply an all-over coat of blue (or green).
 

OneOffDave

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My ex was visually impaired and could see things like the edge of the platform, bins and that kind of thing but the contrast for the doors made it much easier for her to find them
 

cf111

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One of my biggest bugbears. Liveries now suffer because of this "legislation", and stripes no longer work if they are broken up by different coloured doors etc.

I would harshly say that it helps a very small minority of people, and should those people be unassisted on a dangerous station platform anyway, with many obstacles including a four foot drop onto the track?

I just think its overkill.

If it makes taking the train easier for a "small minority" then it's worthwhile doing. The aesthetic qualities of a livery are irrelevant in comparison.
 

physics34

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Lovely. 'How dare those people ruin my nice pretty train by having the nerve to want to live an independent life'.

I'm surprised you don't say that they should be in a home where they don't get in everyone's way. [emoji35]

I expect a response like this and i dont blame you, but its my opinion that it is overkill...and strange when there are many dangers on a station platform for people of poor sight........such as...stairs, the gap/step between the train and platform (why dont they sort these out rather than messing with the aesthetics of a train livery), other passengers and luggage, lamposts, and those bumper paving stones for blind people.....(they are actually a tripping hazard for old people!!!).

My opinion is helped by my background in art and that i look for things that are pleasing on the eye. A nice sleak, stripy livery on a train makes for a great look (such as NSE, RR or IC) in a photograph or a picture.

Why is the new GWR livery so good looking? Because the contrast is very slight.

I respect the opinions of people who do find the contrast helpful, but im sure youd prefer more staff on stations and some less hazards like the ones i mentioned.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If it makes taking the train easier for a "small minority" then it's worthwhile doing. The aesthetic qualities of a livery are irrelevant in comparison.

I respect your opinion.

see my reply above.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
My ex was visually impaired and could see things like the edge of the platform, bins and that kind of thing but the contrast for the doors made it much easier for her to find them

Serious question, Would the chime and the flashing door button have been enough? (as is now appearing on all sliding door stock?).
 

Bletchleyite

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I wonder... would it satisfy the rules to have a row of LEDS fitted around the doorway which would light up only when the door is cut in?

I don't know, but given that attractive liveries can be designed with it painted on what's the point of adding complexity, cost and potential failure?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Good question! Apparently the reason that GWR didn't paint a whole HST set in BR Intercity Blue/Yellow to go with 43002 was because the lack of contrasting door colours would fall foul of current regs.I can't imagine what colour would work for the doors on that livery either, to be honest.

Yet Chiltern had a set in, er, BR Intercity blue and yellow - a set that was painted those colours well after contrasting doors were well established. Has a change in the rules now removed any grandfather rights for old liveries?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
For example, the Virgin Voyager doors are different to the rest of the side at platform distance, even though they are harder to distinguish from a distance (greyish silver against black and white stripes that look relatively grey from further away).

Though that striped pattern isn't compliant with the latest regs - the Pendolinos are all being changed to having a solid, darker grey door instead.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If it makes taking the train easier for a "small minority" then it's worthwhile doing. The aesthetic qualities of a livery are irrelevant in comparison.

Trains are largely functional things - things like contrasting doors, large bicycle/wheelchair pictograms, First Class 1s and yellow stripe etc are more important than it looking nice - but there are plenty of liveries that do both. Indeed, liveries with non-contrasting doors now look very dated.
 
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