Future of the Class 60 locos at Toton?

BR60062 · 22 Aug 2016

Philip Phlopp said:
There's all manner of problems with the Class 60 locomotives, the engine is a known issue but with some modifications, it can be relatively reliable, though you'll never match the reliability that a simple two stroke diesel is capable of.

Re-engineering was considered previously and ruled out on grounds of cost, today it's likely to be even more complicated thanks to the emissions legislation - expect bodyshell modifications (difficult with a monocoque) to allow a Euro IV compliant engine to fit into the existing bodyshell.

It's not just the engine, you would want to replace the slightly fragile DC traction motors with much more reliable, lower maintenance AC motors, but that's bogie modifications too. The engine could dictate a new traction alternator too.

Which then leads to a whole load of new control equipment to manage the new motors, alternator and engine.

Then you've got to strip the bodyshell down, effect corrosion repairs, strip bogies, make modifications. It starts getting stupidly expensive and before you know where you are, you've spent the same as it would cost for a new build locomotive from Stadler/Vossloh or GE.

That's why the Class 57 program didn't really go all that far, and it used scrap alternators from Class 56s initially, refurbished ex US Navy engines and kept the same motors etc. It's just not cost effective.

In all honesty speaking here. Those mods would work out cheaper than buying a brand new locomotive. Another argument that would make a rebuild viable is that the FTOC such as DBC wouldn't have to pay for shipping costs of importing new locomotives plus import fees to take into account so that is another cost effective saying. Also as all the DBC drivers I am assuming are type-trained to drive a Class 60. So with that refurbishment package. More costs would be saved as type-training would not be needed unlike with a brand new locomotive. Another thing from what I have learned from the DBC drivers that I have spoken to in the past is that the Class 60's are much nicer to drive than the 66's as the PU isn't bolted to the chassis and doesn't vibrate the cab or is as noisy. Also it could be a new start of producing our own locomotives again as the Class 60 rebuild with the new traction equipment and stuff on one locomotive could pave the way for Brush to start making locomotives again as better technology is more available now than it was back in 1989 when the only EMD locomotives around then were the fairly new and successful Class 59's.

In regards to the Class 57 project. Wasn't that just a stop gap for Freightliner originally until they got their Class 66's? Virgin had about 20 of them for Thunderbird work. But in all honesty here. Comparing a Class 57 to a Class 60 for haulage power is like comparing a saloon car to a truck unit hauling a heavy load

. A 57/0 would seriously struggle to haul a rake of 30-32 tank wagons that is the same syndrome of the Class 66's as they just lack the setup and power that the Class 60's have for this heavy work.

CosherB said:
Why should DBC do that? I was surprised when they performed the Super 60 refurbs on the locos that Colas were allowed to purchase, but DBC must have had their reasons (notably financial). I daresay they charged a healthy premium to Colas for that work.

Again, we can thank politics for how Wisconsin Central acquired their fleet of locos. Unlike passenger locos that generally passed into the hands of the ROSCOs at the time of privatisation, EWS hoovered up the existing loco fleet along with the businesses they purchased. This has now manifested itself as a fleet of 58s in Spain with no likelihood of return, dozens of 60s rotting at Toton and even 90s parked up with no work, all under the auspices of one FOC. If only the 58s, 60s, 90s and 92s had passed to the ROSCOs ..... again, fantasy thoughts with the benefit of hindsight!

Why shouldn't DBC do that?

. They could make money from other FTOC's that choose to rent the Class 60's from DBC and that would keep the money flowing into DBC's wallet whilst the other FTOC that leases them gets a powerful decent locomotive that won't break its back under a heavy load. Also in regards to the Class 60's and Brush Traction. I think it is time that Brush Traction should start making its own UK built locomotives once again rather than TOC/FTOC's being forced to rely on imported locomotives. Britain invented the railway originally under George Stephenson and I find it somewhat appauling that Britain no longer produces its own Locomotives.

Meanwhile if Brush can bring a HST like 43101 back from the dead with new parts and stuff. As 43101 did spend a long time on trestles when it was withdrawn from Virgin back in 2003 and didn't come back into service until around 2008. It now runs with CCT as 43301 since its refurbishment and I think it is still going strong today under MTU power

.

So perhaps Brush could make a new locomotive based on the Class 60 design and maybe build a prototype using one of the "dead" Class 60's such as 60006, 60008, 60064, 60070, 60081 and/or 60098 as a base and test bed for their new locomotive

. Because didn't VivaRail make a DEMU from some much older D78 Tube Stock just recently? As viewing those scenarios alone proves that anything can be obtained and if Britain starts to build its own trains again. That would give the economy a boost in the right direction as more jobs would be created.

RailUK Forums

Harbornite · 22 Aug 2016

In theory, Brush could build locomotive's again if there was demand, obviously they would need to design it from scratch.

Regarding manufacturing facilities, there hasn't been a reduction in these at the Loughborough plant I assume? They haven't been able to manufacture bodyshells there for quite a while, hence why the class 60 shells were built at the now-closed Procor site at Wakefield and the Eurotunnel shells were fabricated by Qualtar Hall of Barnsley who are still in business.

BR60062 · 22 Aug 2016

Harbornite said:
In theory, Brush could build locomotive's again if there was demand, obviously they would need to design it from scratch.

Regarding manufacturing facilities, there hasn't been a reduction in these at the Loughborough plant I assume? They haven't been able to manufacture bodyshells there for quite a while, hence why the class 60 shells were built at the now-closed Procor site at Wakefield and the Eurotunnel shells were fabricated by Qualtar Hall of Barnsley who are still in business.

The reason there is no demand for UK built locomotives is because the TOC/FTOC's do not presently have the option to choose British built locomotives because the last locomotive that was built here were the Class 60's with the last examples built in 1993/4. Nothing else has been offered since the 66 invasion started in 1998 and other overseas built locomotives such as the 67/68/70 and the new forthcoming Class 88 have been bought because there is no UK built alternative available

. I am not against foreign built locomotives at all, but I want to see something fresh on the tracks that is British designed and built because we invented the railways and its time for Britain to build its own locomotives once again. If we can build buses (Alexander-Dennis, Wrightbus, Optare etc) then we can certainly build our own locomotives again no problem. We still have Bombardier but they only make passenger units and tube stock rather than proper locomotives

. So maybe Brush Traction and Bombardier could team up for their first locomotive to be British designed and built post-privatisation of BR. Brush Traction could either expand its Loughborough plant to build the bodyshells in-house for future locomotives. Or they could sub-contract the bodyshells to be assembled by Qualtar Hall in Barnsley to speed up the production for the locomotives. Perhaps something like a Class 62 that would look like a Class 92 bodyshell with a more streamlined dynamic look available as a slower heavy haul locomotive for freight only. Another option for a Class 62/1 would be 4000hp PU with HEP output for passenger and a higher speeds for fast freight

. The thing is though, the product or planned product has to exist first in order to make it available to the customers that are the TOC/FTOC's in this case

.

DarloRich · 22 Aug 2016

richieb1971 said:
Since those 60's have been left to rot we have had -

Lots of 57's, 68's, 88's and 70's ordered. People are rebuilding 56's.. and lets not forget that until recently 66's were arriving on our shores.

at least some of those locos are pulling 45mph, 50mph and 60mph trains.

Under a differing political system many more of the 60's could be running those trains. It is understood about the coal though, that was their primary function.

have a little think about the kind of freight we see on the network now and how it operates then come back.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

BR60062 said:
In all honesty speaking here. Those mods would work out cheaper than buying a brand new locomotive. Another argument that would make a rebuild viable is that the FTOC such as DBC wouldn't have to pay for shipping costs of importing new locomotives plus import fees to take into account so that is another cost effective saying. Also as all the DBC drivers I am assuming are type-trained to drive a Class 60. So with that refurbishment package. More costs would be saved as type-training would not be needed unlike with a brand new locomotive. Another thing from what I have learned from the DBC drivers that I have spoken to in the past is that the Class 60's are much nicer to drive than the 66's as the PU isn't bolted to the chassis and doesn't vibrate the cab or is as noisy. Also it could be a new start of producing our own locomotives again as the Class 60 rebuild with the new traction equipment and stuff on one locomotive could pave the way for Brush to start making locomotives again as better technology is more available now than it was back in 1989 when the only EMD locomotives around then were the fairly new and successful Class 59's.

In regards to the Class 57 project. Wasn't that just a stop gap for Freightliner originally until they got their Class 66's? Virgin had about 20 of them for Thunderbird work. But in all honesty here. Comparing a Class 57 to a Class 60 for haulage power is like comparing a saloon car to a truck unit hauling a heavy load . A 57/0 would seriously struggle to haul a rake of 30-32 tank wagons that is the same syndrome of the Class 66's as they just lack the setup and power that the Class 60's have for this heavy work.

Why shouldn't DBC do that? . They could make money from other FTOC's that choose to rent the Class 60's from DBC and that would keep the money flowing into DBC's wallet whilst the other FTOC that leases them gets a powerful decent locomotive that won't break its back under a heavy load. Also in regards to the Class 60's and Brush Traction. I think it is time that Brush Traction should start making its own UK built locomotives once again rather than TOC/FTOC's being forced to rely on imported locomotives. Britain invented the railway originally under George Stephenson and I find it somewhat appauling that Britain no longer produces its own Locomotives.

Meanwhile if Brush can bring a HST like 43101 back from the dead with new parts and stuff. As 43101 did spend a long time on trestles when it was withdrawn from Virgin back in 2003 and didn't come back into service until around 2008. It now runs with CCT as 43301 since its refurbishment and I think it is still going strong today under MTU power .

So perhaps Brush could make a new locomotive based on the Class 60 design and maybe build a prototype using one of the "dead" Class 60's such as 60006, 60008, 60064, 60070, 60081 and/or 60098 as a base and test bed for their new locomotive . Because didn't VivaRail make a DEMU from some much older D78 Tube Stock just recently? As viewing those scenarios alone proves that anything can be obtained and if Britain starts to build its own trains again. That would give the economy a boost in the right direction as more jobs would be created.

cloud cuckoo land - sorry - building and importing a new locomotive would be cheaper than trying to reverse engineer one to meet current standards.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

BR60062 said:
The reason there is no demand for UK built locomotives is because the TOC/FTOC's do not presently have the option to choose British built locomotives because the last locomotive that was built here were the Class 60's with the last examples built in 1993/4. Nothing else has been offered since the 66 invasion started in 1998 and other overseas built locomotives such as the 67/68/70 and the new forthcoming Class 88 have been bought because there is no UK built alternative available . I am not against foreign built locomotives at all, but I want to see something fresh on the tracks that is British designed and built because we invented the railways and its time for Britain to build its own locomotives once again. If we can build buses (Alexander-Dennis, Wrightbus, Optare etc) then we can certainly build our own locomotives again no problem. We still have Bombardier but they only make passenger units and tube stock rather than proper locomotives . So maybe Brush Traction and Bombardier could team up for their first locomotive to be British designed and built post-privatisation of BR. Brush Traction could either expand its Loughborough plant to build the bodyshells in-house for future locomotives. Or they could sub-contract the bodyshells to be assembled by Qualtar Hall in Barnsley to speed up the production for the locomotives. Perhaps something like a Class 62 that would look like a Class 92 bodyshell with a more streamlined dynamic look available as a slower heavy haul locomotive for freight only. Another option for a Class 62/1 would be 4000hp PU with HEP output for passenger and a higher speeds for fast freight . The thing is though, the product or planned product has to exist first in order to make it available to the customers that are the TOC/FTOC's in this case .

please stop - you have no grasp of the investment required for little or no return or the impracticality of what you suggest or the dire of TOC/FOC to buy an untested product from a new manufacturer when tried and tested designs are available.

Harbornite · 22 Aug 2016

richieb1971 said:
Since those 60's have been left to rot we have had -

Lots of 57's, 68's, 88's and 70's ordered. People are rebuilding 56's.. and lets not forget that until recently 66's were arriving on our shores.

at least some of those locos are pulling 45mph, 50mph and 60mph trains.

Under a differing political system many more of the 60's could be running those trains. It is understood about the coal though, that was their primary function.

60s wouldn't be good for intermodal, one of the growing sources of freight, because they are only capable of 60mph.

BR60062 said:
The reason there is no demand for UK built locomotives is because the TOC/FTOC's do not presently have the option to choose British built locomotives because the last locomotive that was built here were the Class 60's with the last examples built in 1993/4. Nothing else has been offered since the 66 invasion started in 1998 and other overseas built locomotives such as the 67/68/70 and the new forthcoming Class 88 have been bought because there is no UK built alternative available .

Sadly the reason why we don't build locos in the UK is because American and European manufactures have been able to meet demand with proven designs and the FOCs choose to purchase locos from these guys, so no British-based companies have seen any worth in designing and building type 5 locomotives. Also don't forget that freight isn't doing that great either.

CosherB said:
Communist?

Reminds me of East Germany, where railfreight traffic tanked (declined significantly in volume) after reunification.

RichmondCommu · 22 Aug 2016

Harbornite said:
Reminds me of East Germany, where railfreight traffic tanked after reunification.

That reflected the decline of industrial output in East Germany.

Harbornite · 23 Aug 2016

RichmondCommu said:
That reflected the decline of industrial output in East Germany.

Aye, which was caused by the businesses over there being exposed to the free market.

RichmondCommu · 23 Aug 2016

Harbornite said:
Aye, which was caused by the businesses over there being exposed to the free market.

My point is that had nothing to do with the performance of rail freight.

Harbornite · 23 Aug 2016

RichmondCommu said:
My point is that had nothing to do with the performance of rail freight.

My point was that it was affected by the change in government and leadership, which is what Richieb had been talking about. Where did I mention the performance of rail freight? When I said tanked, I meant that the volume of railfreight declined significantly, not the quality.

richieb1971 · 23 Aug 2016

Communism isn't a bad thing if the guy in the high chair is a decent person trying to make his country the finest it can be. Democracy gets you Hilary Clinton and Donald Trump in some cases.

I know a 60 goes 60mph, but tanker trains go 60mph on the same tracks as intermodal trains and 60's work them. I don't really get why intermodal trains need to go 75mph. Just run them at night when not much is on the network if its that much of a problem keeping up time.

Under BR all these dormant locos lined the sidings around big stations like Peterborough, Newport, Leicester, Derby. Even Bletchley had at least 4 or 5 25's, 2 or 3 31's back in the day. These days we run a tighter ship and most locos are earning money day in day out.

I think the problem with the 60's at Toton is that : A) they are in public sight. B) The fact that they are not cut up gives hope to enthusiasts that a British loco icon could make its way back on our rails.

If they just got the blow torch out and put it to bed I think some enthusiasts would rather see that then left to rot.

BR60062 · 23 Aug 2016

DarloRich said:
cloud cuckoo land - sorry - building and importing a new locomotive would be cheaper than trying to reverse engineer one to meet current standards.

Flaming and sarcasm serves no purpose. So I will reply to your latter part of the post which I did in my last post, so I don't feel that I need to repost what I have posted previously. Besides that, why be so negative towards to the comeback of British made products? Nothing cuckoo about my idea mate. The trouble is with some people is that they are just SO negative about doing something different and potentially successful. That is typically the talk of a defeatist :roll:.

DarloRich said:
please stop - you have no grasp of the investment required for little or no return or the impracticality of what you suggest or the dire of TOC/FOC to buy an untested product from a new manufacturer when tried and tested designs are available.

Nope because I am a positive person and I feel strongly that this country can DO a LOT of things that it used to once again as Britain is the godfather to many creations and inventions known to history

.

Since when has Brush Traction been a brand new company? I am certain that they have been making locomotives since the 1960's if not the 1950's and Hawker Sidderley being the parent company of Brush Traction back then. I believe that Hawker also played its part in the aviation industry as well in the past. So that proves that Brush Traction is more than capable of building a successful product like the Class 60 that can haul heavy loads unlike something weak and unsuitable such as a Class 66 that clearly doesn't like heavy haul work. In my upmost honest opinion here, EWS was the deathnell to many of the Class 60's that are parked up at Toton and if it wasn't for DB Schenker taking over EWS in 2007/8. The Class 60's all would have been scrapped and a potentially powerful and a good locomotive gone to waste :roll:. Why? Because its not an EMD Class 66 :lol:

.

Harbornite said:
Sadly the reason why we don't build locos in the UK is because American and European manufactures have been able to meet demand with proven designs and the FOCs choose to purchase locos from these guys, so no British-based companies have seen any worth in designing and building type 5 locomotives. Also don't forget that freight isn't doing that great either.

To be honest with you buddy. The death knell for British built locomotives came at the time when BR was privatised and back in the days when the Class 60's were built. They had the SEPEX CPU's which in 1989, were the most advanced CPU's and the Class 60 was one of the most computerised heavy haul locomotives around. But times have changed since then and personally I think that Brush Traction should have another go at building a brand new locomotive using the tried and tested technology and knowledge that has been demonstrated by the Class 66, Class 67, Class 68, Class 70 on a British built design using the tried and tested technology rolled into it

.

Harbornite · 23 Aug 2016

richieb1971 said:
Communism isn't a bad thing if the guy in the high chair is a decent person trying to make his country the finest it can be. Democracy gets you Hilary Clinton and Donald Trump in some cases.

Democracy is better, you can get good democratic leaders and with Communism, you can end up with the likes of Stalin and Pol Pot.

I know a 60 goes 60mph, but tanker trains go 60mph on the same tracks as intermodal trains and 60's work them. I don't really get why intermodal trains need to go 75mph. Just run them at night when not much is on the network if its that much of a problem keeping up time.

Running them at 75mph means they take less time to occupy blocks and it's easier to slot them into paths on the wcml. Also do you think drivers will appreciate having to work more at night, and don't forget that there are more engineering works then as well.

I think the problem with the 60's at Toton is that : A) they are in public sight. B) The fact that they are not cut up gives hope to enthusiasts that a British loco icon could make its way back on our rails.

You say this as if there are no 60s in service, this obviously isn't the case.
If they just got the blow torch out and put it to bed I think some enthusiasts would rather see that then left to rot.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

BR60062 said:
To be honest with you buddy. The death knell for British built locomotives came at the time when BR was privatised and back in the days when the Class 60's were built. They had the SEPEX CPU's which in 1989, were the most advanced CPU's and the Class 60 was one of the most computerised heavy haul locomotives around. But times have changed since then and personally I think that Brush Traction should have another go at building a brand new locomotive using the tried and tested technology and knowledge that has been demonstrated by the Class 66, Class 67, Class 68, Class 70 on a British built design using the tried and tested technology rolled into it .

It would be nice if type 5 locomotives could be built in the UK again (Hunslet built a large shunter years back, hence the emphasis on type 5s).

The tugs had a protracted delivery and were rather unreliable in the early years. When the Americans came along, they merely sought to standardise the EWS fleet with an American locomotive that would be reliable, and built with a body design that had already been cleared for British use.

DarloRich · 23 Aug 2016

BR60062 said:
Flaming and sarcasm serves no purpose. So I will reply to your latter part of the post which I did in my last post, so I don't feel that I need to repost what I have posted previously. Besides that, why be so negative towards to the comeback of British made products? Nothing cuckoo about my idea mate. The trouble is with some people is that they are just SO negative about doing something different and potentially successful. That is typically the talk of a defeatist :roll:.

It is called realism and shows something that spotters always seem to lack - a connection with the real world and the world of business! There isn't going to be a comeback of British made products in this field no matter how positive you want to be. The ability to deliver the product you describe entirely in the UK has gone and it would be very hard and very risky to try and resurrect it.

BR60062 said:
Nope because I am a positive person and I feel strongly that this country can DO a LOT of things that it used to once again as Britain is the godfather to many creations and inventions known to history .

Since when has Brush Traction been a brand new company? I am certain that they have been making locomotives since the 1960's if not the 1950's and Hawker Sidderley being the parent company of Brush Traction back then. I believe that Hawker also played its part in the aviation industry as well in the past. So that proves that Brush Traction is more than capable of building a successful product like the Class 60 that can haul heavy loads unlike something weak and unsuitable such as a Class 66 that clearly doesn't like heavy haul work.

A nice history lesson but your suggestion was that Brush create a new JV company with AN Other to produce a new locomotive to meet some unclear need on an entirely speculative basis at vast risk, both financially and reputation, to both parties. You also suggest a company should invest millions in new facilities, plant and equipment entirely in the hope that they win orders for a new train no one wants or has a use for!

A spotter might think that is a good idea, anyone with any semblance of rationality would file such a proposals in the draw marked bin. However, all that positive thought should come in useful when Deloite are looking for a buyer in light of the failure and administration of the companies involved.

As for actually building the locomotive you assume, perhaps wrongly, that the skilled people, plant, equipment and contracts required to build new locomotives are still available to Brush. The last locomotives they built from scratch were the euro shuttle locos and the last one of those was finished in 2002 - 14 years ago!

BR60062 said:
In my upmost honest opinion here, EWS was the deathnell to many of the Class 60's that are parked up at Toton and if it wasn't for DB Schenker taking over EWS in 2007/8. The Class 60's all would have been scrapped and a potentially powerful and a good locomotive gone to waste :roll:. Why? Because its not an EMD Class 66 .

It might be your "upmost opinion" but it is wrong. EWS bought 66's because they were:

cheaper to obtain new than trying to fix rotten older locos
more reliable
cheaper to run
less polluting
faster
a uniform fleet requiring the same spares and maintenance
known to senior managers who knew they were a "good" product
Could haul almost everything in thier portfolio of services

BR60062 said:
To be honest with you buddy. The death knell for British built locomotives came at the time when BR was privatised and back in the days when the Class 60's were built. They had the SEPEX CPU's which in 1989, were the most advanced CPU's and the Class 60 was one of the most computerised heavy haul locomotives around. But times have changed since then and personally I think that Brush Traction should have another go at building a brand new locomotive using the tried and tested technology and knowledge that has been demonstrated by the Class 66, Class 67, Class 68, Class 70 on a British built design using the tried and tested technology rolled into it .

Again, and sorry to puncture your positive frame, you overlook one small problem - intellectual property rights. You seem to assume that EMD will simply let another company copy thier design.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

richieb1971 said:
Communism isn't a bad thing if the guy in the high chair is a decent person trying to make his country the finest it can be. Democracy gets you Hilary Clinton and Donald Trump in some cases.

In theory you are quite right, however the reality is somewhat different! With a totalitarian regime like communism that decent, benign dictator you speak of would be very quickly put up against the wall, possibly when he was still a pub landlord or hod carrier. Neither Trump nor Clinton are going to start vast pogroms followed by consigning people to the salt mines of Utah or liquidating entire villages for dissent! The people of the USA get a vote and can choose thier leader.

richieb1971 said:
I know a 60 goes 60mph, but tanker trains go 60mph on the same tracks as intermodal trains and 60's work them. I don't really get why intermodal trains need to go 75mph. Just run them at night when not much is on the network if its that much of a problem keeping up time.

You seem to understand so little of what you see. Can you think of any issues with night time running? Think about what might be in the boxes (especially those of the various supermarkets) and think about what the train needs to run on.

SpacePhoenix · 23 Aug 2016

Is it cheaper to leave them out in the open to rot then to send them off to the scrapyard to be cut up? I would assume that many if not most of them will have by now been cannibalised of any useful spares

DarloRich · 23 Aug 2016

SpacePhoenix said:
Is it cheaper to leave them out in the open to rot then to send them off to the scrapyard to be cut up? I would assume that many if not most of them will have by now been cannibalised of any useful spares

yes - they have a good value as scrap to DBC but you need to carefully manage how you release that weight of metal to scrap dealers in order not to distort the market.

I should imagine the most rotten ones ( ones with explosive engine failures etc) have been well robbed but some of the others could be restored if the market could bear thier use.

CosherB · 23 Aug 2016

BR60062 said:
Flaming and sarcasm serves no purpose. So I will reply to your latter part of the post which I did in my last post, so I don't feel that I need to repost what I have posted previously. Besides that, why be so negative towards to the comeback of British made products? Nothing cuckoo about my idea mate. The trouble is with some people is that they are just SO negative about doing something different and potentially successful. That is typically the talk of a defeatist :roll:.

Nope because I am a positive person and I feel strongly that this country can DO a LOT of things that it used to once again as Britain is the godfather to many creations and inventions known to history .

Since when has Brush Traction been a brand new company? I am certain that they have been making locomotives since the 1960's if not the 1950's and Hawker Sidderley being the parent company of Brush Traction back then. I believe that Hawker also played its part in the aviation industry as well in the past. So that proves that Brush Traction is more than capable of building a successful product like the Class 60 that can haul heavy loads unlike something weak and unsuitable such as a Class 66 that clearly doesn't like heavy haul work. In my upmost honest opinion here, EWS was the deathnell to many of the Class 60's that are parked up at Toton and if it wasn't for DB Schenker taking over EWS in 2007/8. The Class 60's all would have been scrapped and a potentially powerful and a good locomotive gone to waste :roll:. Why? Because its not an EMD Class 66 .

To be honest with you buddy. The death knell for British built locomotives came at the time when BR was privatised and back in the days when the Class 60's were built. They had the SEPEX CPU's which in 1989, were the most advanced CPU's and the Class 60 was one of the most computerised heavy haul locomotives around. But times have changed since then and personally I think that Brush Traction should have another go at building a brand new locomotive using the tried and tested technology and knowledge that has been demonstrated by the Class 66, Class 67, Class 68, Class 70 on a British built design using the tried and tested technology rolled into it .

I admire your optimism, but little else in your musings I'm afraid. You don't have a grasp of (i) market economics, (ii) how the freight industry operates and (iii) the current global manufacturing capability for rail locomotives.

Brush hasn't built any new locos for 20 years. They're now also part of Wabtec which, when I last looked, were American.

The likelihood of the UK ever building a diesel locomotive again from scratch is about zero.

BR60062 · 23 Aug 2016

In response to all concerned. I remember when the New Mini was announced that many people were negative about its design and I even remember one person saying at a car show that it looked like a bubblecar. But now there is tens of thousands of the New Mini all over the UK and the world in various shapes. Also the New Routemaster buses that were coming into service in London in 2011/2 when I was living there until last year caused a bit of a stir. But there is over 600-800 of them in London now and both vehicles have something in common. They have nostalgia and modern image technology rolled into the once design

.

In regards to the Class 60's themselves. I think I might have been misunderstood because a number of them are still in service and yes I did say that some of those in storage that are fit enough to be reused could be refurbished and used as well as I hinted at the idea of one being used as a prototype test bed into developing a new locomotive. The worse of the Class 60's are mostly likely fit for the bin and a trip to booths for those would be a good idea rather than rotting away as the metal could be reused into making new locomotives or whatever.

Personally I wouldn't rule that out in regards to the UK being unlikely to build its own locomotives again because no-one really knows what the future holds. Besides that, its an avenue that no-one has tried - yet. So until its tried and tested, nobody will know if building locomotives again in the UK will be a success or a failure until that avenue is tried.

As Brush is now owned by Wabtec, that should open new doors for Brush Traction because Wabtec/Wabco has partnerships with many other brands such as EMD, MPI, Vossloh etc. So that if anything, would put Brush Traction in better standing as they could work with other companies and use their components that already exist in this new British-built locomotive idea

. So it could potentially work out to be more successful than in the past as companies these days work closer together as partners in these trades. Just look at the MPI locomotives as a prime example

.

CosherB · 23 Aug 2016

BR60062 said:
In response to all concerned. I remember when the New Mini was announced that many people were negative about its design and I even remember one person saying at a car show that it looked like a bubblecar. But now there is tens of thousands of the New Mini all over the UK and the world in various shapes. Also the New Routemaster buses that were coming into service in London in 2011/2 when I was living there until last year caused a bit of a stir. But there is over 600-800 of them in London now and both vehicles have something in common. They have nostalgia and modern image technology rolled into the once design .

In regards to the Class 60's themselves. I think I might have been misunderstood because a number of them are still in service and yes I did say that some of those in storage that are fit enough to be reused could be refurbished and used as well as I hinted at the idea of one being used as a prototype test bed into developing a new locomotive. The worse of the Class 60's are mostly likely fit for the bin and a trip to booths for those would be a good idea rather than rotting away as the metal could be reused into making new locomotives or whatever.

Personally I wouldn't rule that out in regards to the UK being unlikely to build its own locomotives again because no-one really knows what the future holds. Besides that, its an avenue that no-one has tried - yet. So until its tried and tested, nobody will know if building locomotives again in the UK will be a success or a failure until that avenue is tried.

As Brush is now owned by Wabtec, that should open new doors for Brush Traction because Wabtec/Wabco has partnerships with many other brands such as EMD, MPI, Vossloh etc. So that if anything, would put Brush Traction in better standing as they could work with other companies and use their components that already exist in this new British-built locomotive idea . So it could potentially work out to be more successful than in the past as companies these days work closer together as partners in these trades. Just look at the MPI locomotives as a prime example .

Have you contacted Brush and run this past them?

Harbornite · 23 Aug 2016

You never know, Hunslet (also a Wabtec company) mught build another DH60 shunting locomotive. It all depends in demand, they could well build some for export if there is demand overseas.

I know this is off topic but does anyone know what the current status of this locomotive is?

Philip Phlopp · 23 Aug 2016

CosherB said:
Have you contacted Brush and run this past them?

And have they stopped laughing ?

Carntyne · 23 Aug 2016

BR60062 said:
In regards to the Class 60's themselves. I think I might have been misunderstood because a number of them are still in service and yes I did say that some of those in storage that are fit enough to be reused could be refurbished and used as well as I hinted at the idea of one being used as a prototype test bed into developing a new locomotive. The worse of the Class 60's are mostly likely fit for the bin and a trip to booths for those would be a good idea rather than rotting away as the metal could be reused into making new locomotives or whatever.

On what? Seems like there's plenty of the 60s running around for the flows they're used on.

Philip Phlopp · 23 Aug 2016

Carntyne said:
On what? Seems like there's plenty of the 60s running around for the flows they're used on.

The milk and honey flows that BR60062 is going to establish.

BR60062 · 23 Aug 2016

Honey and milk is good for you!

.
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CosherB said:
Have you contacted Brush and run this past them?

Sounds like a good idea

.

richieb1971 · 24 Aug 2016

In order for a British locomotive order to be seriously taken, you need a buyer who wants a British locomotive.

BR60062 · 24 Aug 2016

richieb1971 said:
In order for a British locomotive order to be seriously taken, you need a buyer who wants a British locomotive.

To be honest buddy. Its a bit of a catch 22 situation here because in order for the customer to potentially buy a British built locomotive. A British built locomotive has to exist as a demonstrator as well as an order book to take potential orders as a minimum. This would allow potential customers to evaluate the new locomotive before placing the order for a fleet of them

. Besides which, the demonstrator would allow Brush to iron out any flaws and teething troubles first hand on that locomotive without the need to recall and retrofit modifcations to correct a reliability issue on an entire fleet that could be costly and disruptive to the TOC/FTOC's operations. Investment in a project will always be a risk as the project or product could fail. But on the other hand. That investment could be a potential seed for a new venture to grow and become a success

.

richieb1971 · 24 Aug 2016

The whole thing is a catch 22. Most of the industry has Darlorich's flavour of low risk, predetermined gains. Trains are very costly (too costly in my opinion) so risk assessments need to be taken into consideration before any loco is built.

But then my flavour is that if you don't try you don't gain. The Canadians and Americans didn't build any 66's for their home market and I doubt they had any built before the orders.

Our industry is handicapped because it doesn't believe in itself. And far too often we let others take risks where we haven't, the gains are obviously then for the other markets and not our own.

Shaw S Hunter · 24 Aug 2016

Apologies for my late entrance into this discussion.

Harbornite said:
It might not be that complicated. One ex forumgoer reported that a class 60 once reached 100mph with a railtour...

87015 said:
Except it didn't barbecue anything. North Wales Railday or whatever it was, Brush man with laptop in attendance and the pair of 60s went well above 60mph...

I believe the occasion was the Trainload Coal Motive Power Day of Sunday 11th August 1991 (with some positioning moves the day before). A sequence of enthusiast extras was run along the North Wales Coast route with traction provided by just about anything that might be seen ordinarily on a coal train. I had 60044 & 60061 on one run during which a number of fellow passengers claimed from their stop-watching efforts that a speed above 80mph was reached.

RichmondCommu said:
From memory the class 50's left the London Midland region when the electrification of the WCML was complete in the mid 1970's (1974?) but I don't recall them going through Doncaster until the early 1980's when they received their 'large logo' livery.

The last transfers from Crewe to Bristol happened in early 1976. During their time on WCML duties, including lots of diversions, they tended to be used in pairs which somewhat masked their lack of reliability. On the WR single operation was the norm and it soon became clear just how unreliable they were leading to the decision to "rebuild" them with much less use of the troublesome power electronics.

Harbornite said:
Sadly the reason why we don't build locos in the UK is because American and European manufactures have been able to meet demand with proven designs and the FOCs choose to purchase locos from these guys, so no British-based companies have seen any worth in designing and building type 5 locomotives. Also don't forget that freight isn't doing that great either.

More fundamentally the problem with trying to build locos here for export is loading gauge. European railways will always prefer locos built to their larger dimensions as it allows more room onboard for equipment which greatly assists with maintenance. But we have no way to test European size stock here, a significant problem! Not to mention that delivery would entail road-haulage to the exporting port. Coming the other way these hurdles don't exist.

BR60062 said:
Nope because I am a positive person and I feel strongly that this country can DO a LOT of things that it used to once again as Britain is the godfather to many creations and inventions known to history .

I have no doubt that we can certainly do all sorts of clever things here and sometimes better than anyone does elsewhere. But if you're going to do something ambitious you really do need to give yourself a chance at making money out of it. As plenty of others have said loco building is not one of those things. The world has moved on.

CosherB said:
The likelihood of the UK ever building a diesel locomotive again from scratch is about zero.

Agreed.

Ash Bridge · 24 Aug 2016

richieb1971 said:
The Canadians and Americans didn't build any 66's for their home market and I doubt they had any built before the orders.

Why would they build 66s for their home market, the 59/66 is based on a long proven US/Canadian design the SD40? as I understood it, the 59/66 is basically a scaled down version of these more suited to the less generous various European loading gauges, plus a cab and driving control (Class 58) layout that is more suited to European operations.

DarloRich · 24 Aug 2016

richieb1971 said:
In order for a British locomotive order to be seriously taken, you need a buyer who wants a British locomotive.

And for a buyer to buy a British loco you must first have a need for it ( some work) and the developers must win a competitive tender against an agreed performance specification. One of the question would be about the acceptance of financial risk. With a new locomotive you would expect punitive contract penalties for failures or late deliveries with all costs passed onto the developer. You might well end up carrying all the delay minutes caused by your new train conking out and all the associated service/delivery penalties as well.

Those penalties put at risk any chance of profit and could exceed the ability of the company to pay.

richieb1971 said:
The whole thing is a catch 22. Most of the industry has Darlorich's flavour of low risk, predetermined gains. Trains are very costly (too costly in my opinion) so risk assessments need to be taken into consideration before any loco is built.

But then my flavour is that if you don't try you don't gain. The Canadians and Americans didn't build any 66's for their home market and I doubt they had any built before the orders.

Our industry is handicapped because it doesn't believe in itself. And far too often we let others take risks where we haven't, the gains are obviously then for the other markets and not our own.

I am sorry but you really have no idea what you are talking about! Please do some research around business case development, project delivery methodologies, risk management and the nature/operation of limited and public companies. It might help you understand more of the world you seek to comment on.

That guff about the industry not believing in itself shows how naive you are. Sensible business people will look at the "predetermined gains" (aka profits) and decide the risk and returns are not worth the trouble. It is that pesky, rational, business case again.
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BR60062 said:
To be honest buddy. Its a bit of a catch 22 situation here because in order for the customer to potentially buy a British built locomotive. A British built locomotive has to exist as a demonstrator as well as an order book to take potential orders as a minimum. This would allow potential customers to evaluate the new locomotive before placing the order for a fleet of them . Besides which, the demonstrator would allow Brush to iron out any flaws and teething troubles first hand on that locomotive without the need to recall and retrofit modifcations to correct a reliability issue on an entire fleet that could be costly and disruptive to the TOC/FTOC's operations. Investment in a project will always be a risk as the project or product could fail. But on the other hand. That investment could be a potential seed for a new venture to grow and become a success .

That's all very nice but simply not realistic unless there is a market need for these locomotives.

IF there were freight services going begging ( which there are not) a developer could try to corner the market with a speculative design but at present that simply isn't the case and no business is going to risk its future potential and profits on a whim. The economic circumstances are simply to risky especially post the BREXIT vote.

CosherB · 24 Aug 2016

The UK freight industry now has an established history of securing locomotives from GE Powerhaul, Progress/EMD, and Stadler/Vossloh. In the event that the market needs new diesel stock, just who will insist that the product must be British, with no manufacturing capability to provide such a product? Will have to have a British engine, with British transmission, British controls and all be designed and manufactured in the UK? Cloud cuckoo land!

And I've not even mentioned the likes of Siemens, Bombardier, Alstom and Voith .....

Future of the Class 60 locos at Toton?

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