Future of the Class 60 locos at Toton?

fgwrich · 24 Aug 2016

Moving back to the original subject, this email has just come through. Unless Colas take anymore, I can't see much of a future left for the heavily robbed members.

DB Cargo have the following locomotives available for sale:

60003
Toton
60004
Toton
60005
Toton
60006
Toton
60008
Toton
60013
Toton
60014
Toton
60018
Toton
60022
Toton
60023
Toton
60025
Toton
60027
Toton
60030
Toton
60031
Toton
60032
Toton
60037
Toton
60042
Toton
60050
Toton
60051
Toton
60052
Toton
These locomotives are at Toton and will be sold as seen and as and where lying.

The successful bidder(s) will be required to remove the Locomotives at their own expense.

Please register your interest for these locomotives in accordance with the Guide to making an offer for a Locomotive.

Registrations of interest should be e-mailed to [email protected]. Postal registrations of interest should be sent to the address at the bottom of this section.

The closing date for registrations of interest for these locomotives is at noon on Wednesday 14th September 2016.

Tender documents will be issued shortly after this date.

Guide to making an offer for a locomotive.

These Locomotives are offered for sale by means of competitive open tender in accordance with the DB Cargo Code of Practice for the identification, Sale and/or Disposal of Surplus Locomotives.

A reserve price has been set against each locomotive offered for sale.

All Tenderers will be given the opportunity to undertake inspection of these locomotives by prior arrangement ONLY.

These locomotives shall be disposed of in a manner which is fair and non-discriminatory and which complies with safety and environmental considerations.

A contract for the sale of these Locomotives shall be awarded to the Tenderer(s) with the highest present value offered over the set reserve price. In addition, speed of sale/site clearance and payment terms may be taken into account.

Following issue of the formal Sales Acceptance(s) to the successful Tenderer(s), compliance will be rigidly enforced in accordance with the contract terms agreed. Failure to comply with the Terms and Conditions may lead to DB Cargo either imposing stabling charges or to the cancellation of the sale.

Further details are contained within the Code of Practice and Standard Conditions of Sale which shall be issued with the Tender documents.

Interested parties for these Locomotives should register their interest in the first instance with Stella Horrocks quoting ref SH/Class 60/ Aug 16

To
DB Cargo (UK) Ltd.
Toton TMD
Toton Sidings
Stapleford
Nottingham
NG10 1HA.

Please note that DB Cargo reserves the right to withdraw any / all of these locomotives from sale at any point in the proceedings.

**********************************************************************
Unless otherwise expressly agreed in writing by DB Cargo (UK) Limited (DBC UK), all dealings with DBC UK and its affiliates shall be governed by the applicable terms and conditions of business (as updated from time to time) available (together with a list of DBC UK affiliates) at http://www.uk.dbcargo.com or on request. Information contained in this message and any attachments is confidential, may be legally privileged and is intended for the addressee(s) only. For more information about DBC UK and its email policies refer to http://www.uk.dbcargo.com. Senders of messages shall be deemed to consent to the monitoring, recording and retention of e-mails. DB Cargo (UK) Limited, Registered Number 2938988 and DB Cargo International Limited, Registered Number 3232475 - Registered Office: Lakeside Business Park, Carolina Way, Doncaster DN4 5PN. Registered in England and Wales.
**********************************************************************.

RailUK Forums

sprinterguy · 24 Aug 2016

fgwrich said:
Moving back to the original subject, this email has just come through. Unless Colas take anymore, I can't see much of a future left for the heavily robbed members.

That looks to be a fairly comprehensive clear out of the lower numbered stored members of the class. I wouldn't be surprised to be a further list offering the higher numbered members for sale in due course, perhaps after sales of this batch have been secured.

I think that this provides pretty conclusive evidence of what future DB Cargo sees for its' stored class 60s, i.e. none.

CosherB · 24 Aug 2016

We have been here before with DBC loco sales - noting the "Please note that DB Cargo reserves the right to withdraw any / all of these locomotives from sale at any point in the proceedings" comment.

I agree, however, that it looks like the worst of the class will now be disposed of - permanently. DBC will keep their pool of 15 operational 60s for the duties that a 66 will struggle on, plus a small reserve pool for potential future use.

BR60062 - here's your big chance to expedite that grand plan.

richieb1971 · 24 Aug 2016

Personally I'd like Toton to be cleared out of those 60's.

Either scrap them or sell them.

BR60062 · 24 Aug 2016

CosherB said:
We have been here before with DBC loco sales - noting the "Please note that DB Cargo reserves the right to withdraw any / all of these locomotives from sale at any point in the proceedings" comment.

I agree, however, that it looks like the worst of the class will now be disposed of - permanently. DBC will keep their pool of 15 operational 60s for the duties that a 66 will struggle on, plus a small reserve pool for potential future use.

BR60062 - here's your big chance to expedite that grand plan.

I would love to if I was a millionaire. But I think I will just have to keep to my Hornby Class 60's unless I win the heath lottery this week

. I keep trying (and losing!) :lol:

.

richieb1971 said:
Personally I'd like Toton to be cleared out of those 60's.

Either scrap them or sell them.

Yes I think its time to move on mate. I wonder how much they would charge for a Class 60 cab unit. Could be a nice money maker for a cab train simulator

.

Harbornite · 24 Aug 2016

This is probably a good move by DB Cargo, they don't need these old, worn-out locomotives clogging up the sidings at Toton. If there is a sudden need for motive power in the future, they can either order new locos or lease existing ones. For now, they've got enough locos for the work they need and most of these tugs really are surplus. It's a pity.

Philip Phlopp · 24 Aug 2016

richieb1971 said:
Personally I'd like Toton to be cleared out of those 60's.

Either scrap them or sell them.

I wonder if this is the start of DB getting things sorted out at Toton for HS2.

BR60062 · 24 Aug 2016

Harbornite said:
This is probably a good move by DB Cargo, they don't need these old, worn-out locomotives clogging up the sidings at Toton. If there is a sudden need for motive power in the future, they can either order new locos or lease existing ones. For now, they've got enough locos for the work they need and most of these tugs really are surplus. It's a pity.

I have to agree mate. Its probably better to see them disposed of at Booths for the real dogs whilst maybe one of the healthy ones could be donated to the NRM in York and perhaps some other better ones that ain't too rotten could go into preservation at some of the heritage railways. Shame the Class 60 Group is no more as I used to be a member of that back in 2009/10 and I am sure they would have took one for preservation too

.

Harbornite · 24 Aug 2016

BR60062 said:
. Shame the Class 60 Group is no more as I used to .

Are you sure? Their website is still active and is misleading if you are correct.

http://www.c60pg.co.uk/

BR60062 · 24 Aug 2016

Harbornite said:
Are you sure? Their website is still active and is misleading if you are correct.

http://www.c60pg.co.uk/

Looks like its back then

.

Cowley · 24 Aug 2016

I wonder what chance there is of a group buying a couple for restoration and them eventually ending up back on the mainline hired to a freight company? It's happened with other locos.

Harbornite · 24 Aug 2016

Cowley said:
I wonder what chance there is of a group buying a couple for restoration and them eventually ending up back on the mainline hired to a freight company? It's happened with other locos.

Your best bets are Wabtec and UK rail leasing (other than Colas).

BR60062 · 24 Aug 2016

Also don't forget that Freightliner, GB Railfreight, DRS could be interested in the better healthier examples that might not need too much work to make them railworthy? Otherwise its heritage railways (50/50 chance) and the NRM as I did read that 60100 would be going to the NRM when it retires from active service.

But for most of them including the dogged ones. Its Booths and I dare bet my next pint of beer on it! But as I say, it was good whilst it lasted and I have enough photos and videos to keep me going anyway as well as the Hornby Class 60 models. So I'm happy to have been around when they first entered service

. But nothing will last forever.

Harbornite · 24 Aug 2016

BR60062 said:
Also don't forget that Freightliner, GB Railfreight, DRS could be interested in the better healthier examples that might not need too much work to make them railworthy? Otherwise its heritage railways (50/50 chance) and the NRM as I did read that 60100 would be going to the NRM when it retires from active service.

DRS don't need any type 5 locos with a 60mph top speed, they've got the 68s and 88s instead.

Freightliner could have ordered more class 70s if there was a need for more heavyhaul traction, but there isn't.

There's more of a chance of GBRF getting some of them, but it's still unlikely. Colas could possibly get some for spare parts but I'm not sure if they need additional type 5 power when they have the class 70s with 7 more due for delivery in 2017.

BR60062 · 24 Aug 2016

Harbornite said:
DRS don't need any type 5 locos with a 60mph top speed, they've got the 68s and 88s instead.

Freightliner could have ordered more class 70s if there was a need for more heavyhaul traction, but there isn't.

There's more of a chance of GBRF getting some of them, but it's still unlikely. Colas could possibly get some for spare parts but I'm not sure if they need additional type 5 power when they have the class 70s with 7 more due for delivery in 2017.

Come to think of it. DRS don't really do heavy haul work as such unlike Colas and DB Schenker and in some cases Freightliner. What about DCR? I don't know too much about them as I have not long made a return into the railway hobby itself. So its a bit of a dark cave territory for me. So if you could tell me more about them. I would appreciate it please

.

Philip Phlopp · 24 Aug 2016

BR60062 said:
Come to think of it. DRS don't really do heavy haul work as such unlike Colas and DB Schenker and in some cases Freightliner. What about DCR? I don't know too much about them as I have not long made a return into the railway hobby itself. So its a bit of a dark cave territory for me. So if you could tell me more about them. I would appreciate it please .

What traffic would anybody be using these locomotives for though ?

SpacePhoenix · 24 Aug 2016

Has any class 60 done/been anything special to warrant preservation?

Ash Bridge · 24 Aug 2016

SpacePhoenix said:
Has any class 60 done/been anything special to warrant preservation?

Last ever British built mainline diesel locomotives?

BR60062 · 24 Aug 2016

SpacePhoenix said:
Has any class 60 done/been anything special to warrant preservation?

The Class 60's were the very last Diesel Locomotives to be built on UK soil before British Rail was privatised in the mid 1990's. From what I hear is 60100 is going to the NRM when it retires from service. So there should be one Tug at the NRM which is good enough for me. If any others go to any heritage railways or are preserved. Its a bonus!

.

BR60062 · 24 Aug 2016

Philip Phlopp said:
What traffic would anybody be using these locomotives for though?

Same question here. I know very little about DCR and I am interested to know what sort of freight work would they cover as I have seen 56's and 31's with DCR branding in railway magazines and I did see 56312 at Derby when I was passing through two weeks back.

I now know that DRS has no interest in doing heavy haul work, so that would rule them out of buying any Tug's. The 60's are just not fast enough for intermodal freight, so that limits them to heavy haul only

.

So I am thinking of this. The healthier 60's could be up for grabs by Colas and/or GB Railfreight if they need them. As hasn't Colas won more heavy haul contracts from DBC recently and are expanding their business? Hence I am assuming that the reason why Colas has ordered more Class 70's for the new freight tenders would indicate company growth and at the time. No more surplus Class 60's were available for them to buy at the time they ordered those 7 new Class 70's that are due in 2017

.

So I am wondering if would GB Railfreight also want a slice of that heavy haul pie as well? They bought a few redundant Class 92's from SNCF and DB Schenker recently for freight and Serco Caledonian Sleeper trains. So anything can happen there

.

As for the dogged Class 60's that are Grade 3 failures and that would need a ton of work to put right. A trip to Booths for those would be best option as that should free up some of the yard for wagons etc. As nothing lasts forever and I should count myself lucky to see them in service for as long as they have done so

.

Philip Phlopp · 24 Aug 2016

BR60062 said:
Same question here.

You seem to be very keen for operators to take these locomotives on, but you must know what work do they have and what work could they take on that would justify their acquisition of Class 60 locomotives.

ExRes · 24 Aug 2016

BR60062 said:
I now know that DRS has no interest in doing heavy haul work, so that would rule them out of buying any Tug's. The 60's are just not fast enough for intermodal freight, so that limits them to heavy haul only .

So I am thinking of this. The healthier 60's could be up for grabs by Colas and/or GB Railfreight if they need them. As hasn't Colas won more heavy haul contracts from DBC recently and are expanding their business? Hence I am assuming that the reason why Colas has ordered more Class 70's for the new freight tenders would indicate company growth and at the time. No more surplus Class 60's were available for them to buy at the time they ordered those 7 new Class 70's that are due in 2017 .

So I am wondering if would GB Railfreight also want a slice of that heavy haul pie as well? They bought a few redundant Class 92's from SNCF and DB Schenker recently for freight and Serco Caledonian Sleeper trains. So anything can happen there .

A few small questions if I may, what heavy haul work would these Colas/GBRf 60s be doing?

If this work was being carried by FHH at the moment then what would happen to the surplus FHH locos?

Without these mythical new flows what would Colas do with their very expensive new 70s?

fgwrich · 24 Aug 2016

ExRes said:
A few small questions if I may, what heavy haul work would these Colas/GBRf 60s be doing?

If this work was being carried by FHH at the moment then what would happen to the surplus FHH locos?

Without these mythical new flows what would Colas do with their very expensive new 70s?

Highlighted is the problem. While I could see a few more uses for Colas to take on Class 60s - The NR NDS Work would be suited to a few more, allowing the 66s and 70s to carry out other Colas jobs, I cant see them considering taking on many more. Possibly a few 60s to allow the 5 66s to join their ex Freightliner classmates at GB? That way, you could have Colas concentrating on - 37s for NR Test Trains jobs, 60s for NDS / Cement / Fuel and 70s for Logs and NDS. Possibly reducing the 56 fleet at the same time.

I don't know. It's a nice idea but I cant see much of it happening at all really, not with a new batch of 70s on their way across the Atlantic.

Philip Phlopp · 24 Aug 2016

fgwrich said:
Highlighted is the problem. While I could see a few more uses for Colas to take on Class 60s - The NR NDS Work would be suited to a few more, allowing the 66s and 70s to carry out other Colas jobs, I cant see them considering taking on many more. Possibly a few 60s to allow the 5 66s to join their ex Freightliner classmates at GB? That way, you could have Colas concentrating on - 37s for NR Test Trains jobs, 60s for NDS / Cement / Fuel and 70s for Logs and NDS. Possibly reducing the 56 fleet at the same time.

I don't know. It's a nice idea but I cant see much of it happening at all really, not with a new batch of 70s on their way across the Atlantic.

The situation is further confused by the Class 90 locomotives about to be made redundant at Greater Anglia - they actually are useful, and could well find a use on intermodal services, but who would want them ?

Harbornite · 24 Aug 2016

Philip Phlopp said:
The situation is further confused by the Class 90 locomotives about to be made redundant at Greater Anglia - they actually are useful, and could well find a use on intermodal services, but who would want them ?

Freightliner or DB for spare parts or for intermodal growth opportunities?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

fgwrich said:
While I could see a few more uses for Colas to take on Class 60s - The NR NDS Work would be suited to a few more, allowing the 66s and 70s to carry out other Colas jobs, I cant see them considering taking on many more. Possibly a few 60s to allow the 5 66s to join their ex Freightliner classmates at GB? That way, you could have Colas concentrating on - 37s for NR Test Trains jobs, 60s for NDS / Cement / Fuel and 70s for Logs and NDS. Possibly reducing the 56 fleet at the same time.

That seems reasonable. What about the class 47s? They have ETH capability in their favour but they are a small, non-standard fleet.

Philip Phlopp · 24 Aug 2016

Harbornite said:
Freightliner or DB for spare parts or for intermodal growth opportunities?

And what might they release in terms of diesel locomotives ?

What if DRS, Colas or GBRf wanted 15 Class 90s, what would they release ?

The Class 90s are likely going to make more Class 66 or Class 70 locomotives available, which could well negate any need for more Class 60s.

The Planner · 24 Aug 2016

NDS? we are on the second name change since then! Route Services or something similar now.

Harbornite · 24 Aug 2016

Philip Phlopp said:
And what might they release in terms of diesel locomotives ?

What if DRS, Colas or GBRf wanted 15 Class 90s, what would they release ?

The Class 90s are likely going to make more Class 66 or Class 70 locomotives available, which could well negate any need for more Class 60s.

I can't imagine DRS wanting 90s, what with their new bi mode vosslohs, unless intermodal demand really shot up. Same goes for Colas, unless they won some WCML intermodal contracts. DB and GBRf might appreciate having more IF there was a in increase in cross-chunnel freight which would require a greater utilisation of 92s. 90s et al will become more valuable for Freightliner in particular once electric spine and Derby to Bristol electrification are completed, although by then, we will be living on Mars...

Philip Phlopp · 24 Aug 2016

Harbornite said:
I can't imagine DRS wanting 90s, what with their new bi mode vosslohs, unless intermodal demand really shot up. Same goes for Colas, unless they won some WCML intermodal contracts. DB and GBRf might appreciate having more IF there was a in increase in cross-chunnel freight which would require a greater utilisation of 92s. 90s et al will become more valuable for Freightliner in particular once electric spine and Derby to Bristol electrification are completed, although by then, we will be living on Mars...

I'm not too bothered about potential uses, but I do think they'll release more diesel locomotives.

BR60062 · 25 Aug 2016

ExRes said:
A few small questions if I may, what heavy haul work would these Colas/GBRf 60s be doing?

If this work was being carried by FHH at the moment then what would happen to the surplus FHH locos?

Without these mythical new flows what would Colas do with their very expensive new 70s?

I am under the impression that the reason why Colas ordered more Class 70's for delivery in 2017 is because at the time the order was placed. The recently announced second wave of surplus Class 60's wasn't available. So that is my thinking there.

Secondly. Isn't freight by rail increasing? So if that is correct, that would warrant more locomotives to be sourced as I understand that Colas is one of the FTOC's that is growing and perhaps that they would require more locomotives for the new contracts. So I shall make a prediction of the likelyhood of the future for the Class 60's that are up for disposal.

60003 - Reuse Possible
60004 - Scrap
60005 - Reuse Possible/Scrap
60006 - Scrap (Reason Fire Damage)
60008 - Scrap (Reason Turbo Explosion)
60013 - Scrap/Reuse Possible
60014 - Scrap
60018 - Reuse Possible
60022 - Scrap
60023 - Scrap (Unknown Failure)
60025 - Reuse Possible
60027 - Scrap
60030 - Scrap
60031 - Reuse Possible
60032 - Scrap
60037 - Scrap
60042 - Scrap
60050 - Reuse Possible/Scrap
60051 - Reuse Possible
60052 - Reuse Possible

Of course anything can happen but this is just a mere assumption taking into account the length of the time stored in the open elements to the type of failure the locomotive has sustained.

In regards to GB Railfreight. Them owning a few cheap secondhand heavy haul locomotives like a handful of Tugs could open the doors the heavy haul freight and some members then could be replaced by new gen locomotives. If FHH took some, a few 66/6 could pass to GB Railfreight as to standardise their fleets and also FHH could use the newly aquired Class 60's on the Iron Ore scrap trains that blast through Barnetby on most days using a lower fuel consumption locomotive like the Class 60 as the Mirrlees units are very economical fuel savers. Of course this is just a thought of what might happen and not based on any facts at all

.

Future of the Class 60 locos at Toton?

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