SpacePhoenix
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Are Southern guards not able to or not allowed to either customise the output of the PIS or switch it off?
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Information for GTR Southern passengers during strike (no DOO discussion)
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tsr
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They can only enter the calling pattern on 313s (not relevant here); on all other stock this is done by the driver, and is in fact the step during setting up the cab which signifies to the conductor/platform staff that they are present (if not already seen boarding, which is quite possible on a crowded platform) and ready to depart. The driver should be provided with a 4-digit PIS code, but if not there are various lists of codes for various routes floating around, or alternatively they can set the displays to "Please listen to announcements".
The conductor can send around 19 pre-set messages on most stock, with "01" being "Please listen to announcements" (the rest are things like pre-recorded security messages, or "Not in service" visuals). This message is used to overwrite frozen PIS screens and will be followed by a single automatic audio announcement, followed by manual audio announcements only. This message, in turn, can be overridden by the driver entering a new PIS code and calling pattern, or by further pre-set messages. It will also be overridden if the PIS system resumes from being frozen, or if it generates incorrect messages by itself. This is really the key to the situation; if the PIS code and message sequence is happily playing back, it is not frozen and cannot be overridden by the conductor, even if it is wrong (eg. announcing stations the train is not booked to call at, or announcing incorrect splits as in this case).
The driver can in theory disable the PIS audio and/or visual systems, completely or by inserting a generic message code. On 377s this does not actually always work on the Mitrac displays, and it also won't do it if you don't quite push the button firmly enough in a hurry. The driver may also only be able to do this at a stand, following the message having already played once or twice on the move. Having manual announcements contradicting this can become very confusing, especially if PA speakers are quiet or some other problem arises.
Also, if diagrams and the PIS code say that the train will divide, and the conductor has not been in a position on a platform to be able to see the CIS, they may be none the wiser if they have not been made aware of the nuances of the timetable. Not being able to see/read the CIS is surprisingly easy as at stations like Victoria or Clapham Junction there are actually very few screens, and many more possible dispatch positions. As an example, you can walk straight from a messroom to at least one mainline platform at Victoria, stow your bags and dispatch your train correctly without actually seeing the detail on a single station CIS screen. Naturally if an incorrect diagram is issued it can cause a whole host of problems, and yet if it says something like "RAPD" (Relieved At & Portion Detached at [location here]), a member of train crew may be none the wiser; there may conceivably have been a revision to the diagram for a new variant of the timetable which has not been briefed out.
Or, and this is probably the most relevant point, there are plenty of diagrams put together on a Short Term Planning (STP) basis which may have details inserted from the normal timetable by human error as a sort of "default" option as padding around whichever bit has been changed in the short-term, perhaps for that day or week only. This normal timetable may correctly have a train splitting; however, if those details are entered in error as the default mode of operation on a day when in fact the special timetable is in use, and the PIS code looks normal but corresponds to the default calling pattern, you can quickly end up with incorrect information being broadcast and only being noticed and changed at very short notice. Given the number of lines on the roster you can only have so many conductors and indeed drivers who are au fait with real world experiences on every single diagram for every route as the changes are so "thick and fast" at the moment.
There are so many random special and STP diagrams floating around at Southern at the moment that I'm afraid there will be confusion - we're all human - and there are bound to be occasions with incorrect PIS codes and odd errors. It looks like Deepgreen's train has been especially badly affected and whilst most conductors have found out about the issue, Control are aware, and those who've done that job once are likely to notice an error on their diagram if they do it again, lessons learned do not seem to always have results every single day.
MK Tom
Established Member
Utter nightmare on the 16:15 Littlehampton-Victoria yesterday. Announced and shown as Victoria up to departure, immediately after leaving we were told it was terminating at Worthing.
At all the intermediate stations before Worthing the service was shown as cancelled, so even passengers for Worthing weren't there even though they DID have a service.
Then at Worthing, it was still shown as running to Victoria! So people tried to get on and were told they couldn't. Then a fully loaded ex Portsmouth service that was supposed to attach arrived behind and promptly also disgorged its passengers.
As the double load of passengers were then all told to get the Brighton service and changed there, I elected to go and explore the town and catch the one after.
The strikes/shortages and the disruption are one thing, but it would be really helpful if information screens were at least kept consistent with what's actually going on.
Huge credit to the staff on the train and at Worthing who were doing their very best to help people.
At all the intermediate stations before Worthing the service was shown as cancelled, so even passengers for Worthing weren't there even though they DID have a service.
Then at Worthing, it was still shown as running to Victoria! So people tried to get on and were told they couldn't. Then a fully loaded ex Portsmouth service that was supposed to attach arrived behind and promptly also disgorged its passengers.
As the double load of passengers were then all told to get the Brighton service and changed there, I elected to go and explore the town and catch the one after.
The strikes/shortages and the disruption are one thing, but it would be really helpful if information screens were at least kept consistent with what's actually going on.
Huge credit to the staff on the train and at Worthing who were doing their very best to help people.
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WatcherZero
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Been announced 119 of the 341 services axed in the emergency timetable will be reinstated 5th Sep.
◾All of its "metro" services in south London
◾Sutton to Streatham via Wimbledon
◾Twenty-six services on the West London line between Clapham and Watford Junction/Milton Keynes
◾Guildford to Leatherhead
◾All of its "metro" services in south London
◾Sutton to Streatham via Wimbledon
◾Twenty-six services on the West London line between Clapham and Watford Junction/Milton Keynes
◾Guildford to Leatherhead
Do you know they have been able to achieve this reinstatement?
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Perhaps in part due to a batch of trainee drivers cleared to go into the wild?
And others back from summer hols...
Deepgreen
Established Member
We won't know until Monday, when they start!
Further misery of Southern commuters. Signalling fault at Haywards Heath. Trains delayed.
The 18.13 service to Littlehampton pulled into platform 3 at Three Bridges late. Eventually the driver asked for the guard. No response. He asks several times but no response.
Eventually guard goes to front of train to meet driver and member of platform staff. Due to PA fault he couldn't communicate with the driver.
Station announcer is advising passengers that Brighton service will be following this train. This is announced more than once. Thanks to the O2 and GTR WiFi partnership provided at Three Bridges I can see on the National Rail Enquiries App that this service is now cancelled.
However guard and driver are not aware. Shortly they hear, perhaps from platform staff, that the train is running fast to Littlehampton. However they cannot find out which route they are meant to be taking and the train is going nowhere until they do. Nothing on the e-mail to the guard. So one of them is attempting to contact Sussex control.
In the mean time a train not in service arrives into platform 5, blocking that platform.
By now the station announcer is mentioning the signalling fault at Haywards Heath and says the Littlehampton train is running fast to Littlehampton and is due to depart shortly.
By this point the signal for the train to proceed has been green for about 5 minutes.
I head off for the Brighton train on platform 2, as this train is most definitely not stopping at Haywards Heath. After being on the Brighton train for sometime we are told the train cannot proceed until the train beside us has cleared platform 3. The Littlehampton train having not yet left! So much for the doors closing shortly. Hehe
The Brighton train eventually leaves 30 minutes late. Surprisingly it wasn't that much further delayed into Haywards Heath. May be the signalling fault was fixed. Yes it was. Wonder how much of the delay was due to the Littlehampton train crew not knowing which route they are due to take though?
It may be that it made no difference as it coexisted with the signalling fault delay.
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The 18.13 service to Littlehampton pulled into platform 3 at Three Bridges late. Eventually the driver asked for the guard. No response. He asks several times but no response.
Eventually guard goes to front of train to meet driver and member of platform staff. Due to PA fault he couldn't communicate with the driver.
Station announcer is advising passengers that Brighton service will be following this train. This is announced more than once. Thanks to the O2 and GTR WiFi partnership provided at Three Bridges I can see on the National Rail Enquiries App that this service is now cancelled.
However guard and driver are not aware. Shortly they hear, perhaps from platform staff, that the train is running fast to Littlehampton. However they cannot find out which route they are meant to be taking and the train is going nowhere until they do. Nothing on the e-mail to the guard. So one of them is attempting to contact Sussex control.
In the mean time a train not in service arrives into platform 5, blocking that platform.
By now the station announcer is mentioning the signalling fault at Haywards Heath and says the Littlehampton train is running fast to Littlehampton and is due to depart shortly.
By this point the signal for the train to proceed has been green for about 5 minutes.
I head off for the Brighton train on platform 2, as this train is most definitely not stopping at Haywards Heath. After being on the Brighton train for sometime we are told the train cannot proceed until the train beside us has cleared platform 3. The Littlehampton train having not yet left! So much for the doors closing shortly. Hehe
The Brighton train eventually leaves 30 minutes late. Surprisingly it wasn't that much further delayed into Haywards Heath. May be the signalling fault was fixed. Yes it was. Wonder how much of the delay was due to the Littlehampton train crew not knowing which route they are due to take though?
It may be that it made no difference as it coexisted with the signalling fault delay.
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Evvy73
Member
I was on the same train as you Infobleep (17:40 out of LBG?).
I decided quite quickly that things weren't going anywhere so strolled over to the Snooty Fox for a couple of pints to let things calm down.
Eventually I caught the 19:10 Brighton bound Thameslink service (departed at 19:29).
As we arrived at Haywards Heath our Conductor apologised for the delay stating that it was due to a signal problem followed by "one of our shiny new trains breaking down in the same section" (his words, not mine!), so it looks as though once again the 700's are not behaving themselves!
Coincidentally, I renewed my season ticket today - EVERY year for as long as I can remember, my first journey after shelling out around £4k has been problematic! :roll:
I decided quite quickly that things weren't going anywhere so strolled over to the Snooty Fox for a couple of pints to let things calm down.
Eventually I caught the 19:10 Brighton bound Thameslink service (departed at 19:29).
As we arrived at Haywards Heath our Conductor apologised for the delay stating that it was due to a signal problem followed by "one of our shiny new trains breaking down in the same section" (his words, not mine!), so it looks as though once again the 700's are not behaving themselves!
Coincidentally, I renewed my season ticket today - EVERY year for as long as I can remember, my first journey after shelling out around £4k has been problematic! :roll:
tsr
Established Member
The evening peak didn't start well with door faults on trains at Balham then Victoria, closely followed by the issues at Haywards Heath (a couple of signals stuck at danger at Copyhold Jn - track circuit issues supposedly something to do with it). Then 1W45 got its brakes jammed on, and had to terminate at Haywards Heath. Once all that was dealt with, everything started moving much more freely, but congestion was back to Redhill and thus SN/TL are still having a "fun" evening...
Inteetaingly on Twitter someone said the breaks jammed as a result of the track circuit failure or words to that effect.
Whilst I'd like to stop for a drink I actually had somewhere to go and couldn't go there as I arrived in to late.
Still it doesn't happen that often on my travels this way so I'll accept it.
The staff didn't seem to be having a good time though. Not what they need right now.
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I heard a rumour some of them are only qualified to drive in daylight! Which could be fun if they get delayed!
Busaholic
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Permanent carrot soup on the menu in the canteen?!
So should car bus and truck drivers do their tests at night
Possibly! Mind you doesn't take them so long to stop!
No agreed Lord only knows how folk managed to drive steam engines up until the 1960s with no speedometer fitted at all
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tsr
Established Member
Correct. Various reasons for this one - but most new drivers would mainly be on Metro routes where the service is intense enough to be able to limit them to a reasonable complement of daytime trains, including some contingency for delay. That situation is certainly not swept under the carpet either - training for night driving would be given ASAP.
Could be any staff of any description - an orange rucksack or rail uniform doesn't actually always give much clue as to the job role. You've possibly just noticed random clusters (maybe at hotspots like Victoria/Selhurst/East Croydon/Purley/Redhill/Gatwick/Brighton/Horsham) unless they looked like they were being given local/induction tours as a group - in that case they could be anything from route learners to agency dispatch staff. There have been several groups of new drivers - also post-qualified conductors learning new routes - heading round the network recently, though.
notadriver
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Drivers are never passed out as competent until they've completed 40 hours night driving. If Southern really are allowing drivers to pass out without completing their night hours then strict rules are being broken regarding driver training. Is this the start of a slippery slope ? Next you'll have agency dispatch staff having a go during staff shortages !
The orange rucksack used to be something only issued to drivers - now all staff get one. Drivers will now really need to double check route learners have the correct ID before admitting them to the cab for route learning purposes.
The comparison with bus and truck driving at night is laughable - has the person making the comment ever been in a train cab at night ?? - and in the past when trains had no speedo they would also have had much more experience on he footplate shared between two crew than they do now.
The orange rucksack used to be something only issued to drivers - now all staff get one. Drivers will now really need to double check route learners have the correct ID before admitting them to the cab for route learning purposes.
The comparison with bus and truck driving at night is laughable - has the person making the comment ever been in a train cab at night ?? - and in the past when trains had no speedo they would also have had much more experience on he footplate shared between two crew than they do now.
tsr
Established Member
They most certainly are passed out as competent on rules and core routes, but with extremely strict restrictions on hours, based on day-to-day analysis of workings vs daylight hours. There are numerous examples of all sorts of seemingly obscure driving restrictions applied to individuals, and these are just as rigorously applied for the reasons of incomplete night training hours.
Pretty much the only reason you'd find them at certain places on the Southern network. Use of agencies to assist with dispatch during staff shortages is formally written into the dispatch plan at many stations. It's not necessarily the first point on the list of contingency options, but it's up there with them.
Erm, no. They're issued to all conductors & managers at Southern who are based at a T&RSMD where they need to pick up trains from sidings/depot roads during their duties, for a start - and have had to be issued for some years, to ensure staff are sufficiently visible on or near the track when picking up trains. I should imagine this is the same at other TOCs too. It's not "all staff" either.
They already do...
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notadriver
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So Southern are breaking the rules regarding driver training regarding the strict 40 hours dark driving rule?
So what happens when scheduling messes up and allocates a duty which finishes at night ? Will the driver stop halfway through and refuse to complete the duty ? Of course not. They'll continue and by doing so will somehow not be required to do their 40 hours dark driving as they'll have done it by by virtue of underhanded scheduling.
ASLEF need to get a look at what is going on please. Start of a slippery slope.
Oh - conductors used to be issued a grey rucksack at my toc. Drivers got the high vis ones and that used to be one way you could distinguish between the grades.
So what happens when scheduling messes up and allocates a duty which finishes at night ? Will the driver stop halfway through and refuse to complete the duty ? Of course not. They'll continue and by doing so will somehow not be required to do their 40 hours dark driving as they'll have done it by by virtue of underhanded scheduling.
ASLEF need to get a look at what is going on please. Start of a slippery slope.
Oh - conductors used to be issued a grey rucksack at my toc. Drivers got the high vis ones and that used to be one way you could distinguish between the grades.
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How far in advance do GTR usually issue their strike timetables? I see the first day of next weeks strike will be greater in impact than before due to station staff also striking.
Yet more delays this morning after leaving East Croydon. Conductor has said that whatever was put in front of us at Windmill Bridge, whilst we waited, is crawling along in front of us whilst we crawl along behind it!
After that the driver found out more details and told the guard. It's a stopping service. To quote the guard:
Hopefully it won't be stopping any more but more likely it will be stopping everywhere. Your guess is as good as mine as to why it was put in front of us but we now have no option but to follow it.
To my ears he sounded slightly resigned to the fact. This is of course delaying every other fast train behind. May be there was an issue with the slow line. Either that or a mistake was made.
I had no mobile data, having run out the other week, so I couldn't see what's going on, on real train times as I travel. I will be looking it up later though. I do know that if the train is stopping at fast line platforms, passengers would need to get out of gated areas at some or all stations. Not straight forward. Passengers wishing to join the train would have similar issues.
At Stretham Common, there were passengers on the slow line platform so maybe it's in use still.
This train is due into Clapham Junction at 8.10. It was 20 minutes late. Was looking to be even longer but we sped up after Balham.
UPDATE:
This seems to be the Trai that caused the issues. It terminated at Stretham Common it seems.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W74709/2016/09/01/advanced
Actually I'm not sure if it's that one. If it's not that one then it's one not showing on Real Time Trains.
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--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It's a signalling fault. We must have just hit it.
Had I caught the 7.56 from East Croydon, I wouldn't have been affected but I just missed that one.
http://www.southernrailway.com/mobile/
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Yet more delays this morning after leaving East Croydon. Conductor has said that whatever was put in front of us at Windmill Bridge, whilst we waited, is crawling along in front of us whilst we crawl along behind it!
After that the driver found out more details and told the guard. It's a stopping service. To quote the guard:
Hopefully it won't be stopping any more but more likely it will be stopping everywhere. Your guess is as good as mine as to why it was put in front of us but we now have no option but to follow it.
To my ears he sounded slightly resigned to the fact. This is of course delaying every other fast train behind. May be there was an issue with the slow line. Either that or a mistake was made.
I had no mobile data, having run out the other week, so I couldn't see what's going on, on real train times as I travel. I will be looking it up later though. I do know that if the train is stopping at fast line platforms, passengers would need to get out of gated areas at some or all stations. Not straight forward. Passengers wishing to join the train would have similar issues.
At Stretham Common, there were passengers on the slow line platform so maybe it's in use still.
This train is due into Clapham Junction at 8.10. It was 20 minutes late. Was looking to be even longer but we sped up after Balham.
UPDATE:
This seems to be the Trai that caused the issues. It terminated at Stretham Common it seems.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W74709/2016/09/01/advanced
Actually I'm not sure if it's that one. If it's not that one then it's one not showing on Real Time Trains.
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--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It's a signalling fault. We must have just hit it.
Had I caught the 7.56 from East Croydon, I wouldn't have been affected but I just missed that one.
http://www.southernrailway.com/mobile/
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Station staff strike is off from what's being said internally so I would imagine the standard strike timetable will be run.. I'm sure RMT and GTR will issue a press release shortly to confirm or deny this.
Would certainly explain the distinct lack of information on what's happening..
Would certainly explain the distinct lack of information on what's happening..
WatcherZero
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RMT has agreed to trial the reduction in opening hours at Thameslink in return for a £1000 bonus for staff working the trials. No agreement at Southern.
How is that going to save money? Staff work less hours and we pay them more. I'm sure it's not that simple though.
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GatwickDepress
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I think GTR are playing the long game there. A quick one-off bonus could save thousands further down the line.
KatieLouLou
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Of course it's not that simple. The change is merely staff selling tickets will be selling them out on the concourse rather than from behind a ticket window. Although there may be a reduction in the hours that a ticket window in the ticket office is open, there is an increase in the hours during which tickets can be sold face to face as they will still be available from staff out on the concourse.
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