Delay Repay claim involving multiple tickets with Virgin Trains: waiting to hear back

Mods' note: split from Delay Repay using split tickets

Does anyone know if VT West are similar in this scenario? I'm awaiting to hear back from them about a 3 leg journey where I was delayed with them on the last leg. I'm expecting to have to fight it out with them...

I don't know about VT West, but VTEC are known for only giving compensation on the ticket that covered the part of the journey where the delay occured.

I couldn't find my original post as it had been split out of the other topic - but I've an update for it which I'd like peoples thoughts on and whether or not it is worth pursuing further....


I travelled from Reading to Oxenholme across split tickets
Reading - Paddington - Off Peak Single FGW / GWR bought on the day - £13
Euston - Birmingham NS - Advance Single, booked online through the Virgin website - £6
Birmingham NS - Oxenholme - Advance Single, booked at the same time as above - £7. This was the train that was delayed by over 85 minutes.

I've automatically received the £7 back through Virgins website, then completed one of their paper compensation claim forms (their delay repay form only lets you select stations from which they depart), put in my Reading address, journey from Reading to Oxenholme and posted it with the tickets enclosed some point before the above post (13th August)


Come the 25th August I'd heard nothing back - so sent them a message via Twitter, confirmed a few details and they asked if I had recently moved address as they had a different address on file for me. I moved over 3 years ago!! They confirmed that they had sent 'compensation' to my old address, would update my address details and re-send the compensation.


Over this weekend, their letter of compensation has arrived, but it only covers the £13 journey of Reading to London and excludes the London to Birmingham leg which I was also claiming for. After speaking with them on the phone, they say that they should not have issued the £13, and that I should just have been refunded the part of the journey that I was delayed.

Yet, and I'm sure I don't need to quote it here
--NRCOC state that two or more tickets can be used for a journey - VT weren't interested, only in the ticket that caused the delay
--They did not care that my *journey* was from Reading
--They said they would not pay for another operators delay - well, obviously, but no other operator delayed me.
-- They stated that if I booked it all as one, then I would be covered - this was the case for the advance tickets, they were all booked under the same transaction. They did not care.
--Their letter states "Customers who are delayed 30-59 minutes will receive compensation equivalent to 50% of the cost of the affected leg of their journey; if a return ticket is used, the ticket price is halved to calculate this compensation"
"Leg of their journey" to me implies the outbound leg, and the return journey (if there is one) being the other leg. They claim that it is just that one ticket, on that leg.



Their passenger charter states: -

"If your train is delayed or cancelled, or a delay or cancellation of a Virgin train causes a delay to your overall journey, you may be entitled to claim compensation. If not, we will consider claims on an ex-gratia basis"
This was the case, my overall journey was delayed


60 – 119 minutes
We will pay you compensation to the value of 100% of the cost of your single ticket or 100% of the cost of the relevant portion* of your return ticket
*by ‘relevant portion’ we mean either the outward or return portion of a return ticket depending upon whether you were delayed on your outward or return journey
So by portions, they're splitting them to outward and return journeys.




So, is it worth pursuing further, or should I just admit defeat?

Thanks in advance!

Depends on how much you value your time and how desperate you want that £6.

VT are hoping that people don't make claims for their full journey, so I would persue it. They will be banking on the fact that many people won't bother.

If we underpaid them by £6 they would be persuing us and they would possibly be threatening us with a criminal prosecution.

It's not a level playing field, but they want us to give up. Let's not give them what they want.

Well I feel that receiving about 75% of something when I think that I should be entitled to 100% is a bit crappy...

I personally would pursue it further. Valuable pint money! A quick email pointing out the error should suffice, as it'll probably be read by someone different.

I recently had cause to correct VT on their issuing of £3.25 rather than £6.50 and the additional amount arrived within a week.

I had to go round the loop 3 times to get VT to refund the full value of a split ticket journey when I failed to get to Leeds thanks to yet another dewirement at Retford. They even had the cheek to try to get GWR to refund the other leg, even though there were no delays on their services.

I did get there in the end though. Still spending the RTVs

Cheers for the comments all, I've had a letter proof-read and dropped it in the post today. Lets wait and see what they say. I'll be sure to let you all know

mullin said:

Cheers for the comments all, I've had a letter proof-read and dropped it in the post today. Lets wait and see what they say. I'll be sure to let you all know

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Don't spend the £6 all at once!!

Slightly different to a typical split ticket situation, this is a mix of partial tickets.

I'm currently on the 17:15 from Manchester to London Euston, which was my original aim.

It arrived in the platform late, just after the 17:35 departure arrived. Both were available for boarding, as it happens the 17:35, which departed at 17:35 and the 17:15 departed at 17:39.

Delays due to the delay leaving, a points delay at Cheadle Hulme and a broken down train at Tamworth mean we'll end up about 45L

So as for delay Repay:
1) Had I got the 17:35 instead of the 17:15 my delay would be slightly less, although it wasn't clear which would depart first (I figured the 17:15 as it didn't have a stop at Macclesfield). Does this matter?
2) My journey is covered by two standard class tickets
- The return half of a Stafford to Media City (Metrolink) Anytime Day Return for today - this was used as far as Stoke (£28.10)
- The return half of a London to Nantwich Off Peak Return (expiring 15th September) - this was used from Stoke to London (£74.90)

I'm unsure whether this would count as two separate journeys (Mediacity->Stoke, Stoke->Manchester) or one journey.

How is it best to proceed, given the limitations of the virgin westcoast delay-repay online form?

I went around the houses with VTEC over a not dissimilar issue. Some of the utter tosh they came back with meant it was worth continuing to pursue the case simply for entertainment value (did you know, for example, that all journeys must be done using the straightest possible line? That being in an email I was assured that VTEC management had approved!) but I never did get the money. But the amount of time and effort they must have spent dealing with me will certainly have cost them more than the £10 I was claiming for.
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Ah yes here we go:

VTEC said:

The journey you undertook from Darlington to Rugby via London is not a valid route for a single ticket and therefore cannot be undertaken as a single journey. Under the National Rail Conditions of Carriage (NRCOC), and the routing guide, every rail journey must be taken in the straightest line possible and cannot, unless there is no other option go back on itself. As the direct route from Darlington to Rugby is via the Greater Birmingham area there is no provision to travel between those stations via London as a valid, single, journey. As such you would have been unable to buy a single ticket to make the whole journey via London and the trip can only be undertaken as multiple separate journeys.

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That was approved by VTEC management apparently.

I did pick that apart quite handily (including examples of routes from their own journey planner that were not 'straightest possible line') but sadly the declined to actually engage in discussion over that let alone admit that they were wrong.

Indeed their constant refrain throughout our exchanges was:

VTEC said:

I hope you find this clarification useful and understand that you have, in fact, been compensation correctly for your travel and have been given correct information at every turn.

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:roll:

For the record they were the ones that even brought up routeing. I didn't even mention it!

paulweaver said:

Slightly different to a typical split ticket situation, this is a mix of partial tickets.

I'm currently on the 17:15 from Manchester to London Euston, which was my original aim.

It arrived in the platform late, just after the 17:35 departure arrived. Both were available for boarding, as it happens the 17:35, which departed at 17:35 and the 17:15 departed at 17:39.

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Provided you acted in good faith, followed any appropriate advice provided, and claimed for the journey made, I do not think it matters what other trains did.

How were you to know what the other trains did anyway?

Was there any suggestion you should board a different train to the one you did? It sounds like there wasn't, so how could they claim that now?

paulweaver said:

Delays due to the delay leaving, a points delay at Cheadle Hulme and a broken down train at Tamworth mean we'll end up about 45L

So as for delay Repay:
1) Had I got the 17:35 instead of the 17:15 my delay would be slightly less, although it wasn't clear which would depart first (I figured the 17:15 as it didn't have a stop at Macclesfield). Does this matter?

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How can they possibly deny a claim if they did not advise which train would depart first?

paulweaver said:

2) My journey is covered by two standard class tickets
- The return half of a Stafford to Media City (Metrolink) Anytime Day Return for today - this was used as far as Stoke (£28.10)
- The return half of a London to Nantwich Off Peak Return (expiring 15th September) - this was used from Stoke to London (£74.90)

I'm unsure whether this would count as two separate journeys (Mediacity->Stoke, Stoke->Manchester) or one journey.

How is it best to proceed, given the limitations of the virgin westcoast delay-repay online form?

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If you made one journey, which it sounds like you did, then you make one claim for that journey.

You are permitted to use two or more tickets for one journey.

Write an email making it clear what the itinerary was for your journey, and stating how late you actually arrived. Enclose a scan of both tickets in your email.

A short while later and a letter had arrived today with the cheque enclosed for the remainder. Now all received in full

Many thanks to all those who have helped

mullin said:

A short while later and a letter had arrived today with the cheque enclosed for the remainder. Now all received in full

Many thanks to all those who have helped

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Great! For me, it's about the principle (and not about the money; I've helped people on many occasions for no financial benefit to myself) so I am glad they have acted correctly in the end.

It was possibly just someone very low down the chain (perhaps even a contractor or temporary member of staff) who either made a mistake or misunderstood the rules, so it's good to hear that when escalated to someone higher, the right thing is done

Last Friday I had an interesting thing:

I was waiting at Coventry to get to New St. that morning. After the derailment at Watford the delay was well over an hour and I eventually called it a day and walked home.

I have a West Midlands monthly direct debit 'nnetwork' season ticket which includes buses, metro and trains.

Who should I apply to for delay repay? I can use LM, XC or VTWC but invariably use Virgin for it's 1st class service and speed/space. The authority says I must apply to the TOC directly, but there's 3 of them! The ticket is in two parts, one covering the nnetwork part, another for the 1st class train only premium.

I went for VT and it asks for the 'ticket price'. As this covers more than trains and unlimited journeys how on earth do they calculate the refund?

My last application got me a cheque for £1.50 (sent by 1st class post!).

On the web page I enter the total I pay each month as the total on the ticket and 30 days as the duration.

East Coast calculate Delay Repay for seasons (including Travelcards) as the price of the ticket divided by 10 (weekly), 40 (monthly) or 464 (annual).

£3.30 then. That's less than it costs to process I expect.

If you chose not to travel you are not entitled to claim Delay Repay.

You walked home instead of travelling?

As Haywain says, if you chose not to travel you cannot claim Delay Repay.

I eventually got the 900 from Coventry to Birmingham. A bus replacement surely? None were announced or visible at the station.

boxy321 said:

I eventually got the 900 from Coventry to Birmingham. A bus replacement surely? None were announced or visible at the station.

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It's not a bus replacement service. If you go home and decide not to travel by train then you can't claim. That's an abandoned journey, which you can't really claim for on a season ticket.

Yesterday during the 'trespass incident' in Solihull which affected me, LM stated that tickets would be valid on National Express buses (to Dorridge specifically). Is that a bus replacement service?

National Express don't go to Dorridge anyway - it's a Diamond Bus company route.

Regarding Watford, all TOCs stated clearly, 'Do not attempt to travel all day unless absolutely necessary'. So they're trying to get out of paying out then? I completed my journey in the only way possible other than by taxi (not going to happen), then resumed the journey to Solihull by train.

I know rules is rules, but I think I acted correctly after waiting at Coventry station for hours.

boxy321 said:

I know rules is rules, but I think I acted correctly after waiting at Coventry station for hours.

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How long was your journey by train delayed by?

boxy321 said:

Yesterday during the 'trespass incident' in Solihull which affected me, LM stated that tickets would be valid on National Express buses (to Dorridge specifically). Is that a bus replacement service?

National Express don't go to Dorridge anyway - it's a Diamond Bus company route.

Regarding Watford, all TOCs stated clearly, 'Do not attempt to travel all day unless absolutely necessary'. So they're trying to get out of paying out then? I completed my journey in the only way possible other than by taxi (not going to happen), then resumed the journey to Solihull by train.

I know rules is rules, but I think I acted correctly after waiting at Coventry station for hours.

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It's not a bus replacement service - it's cross-ticket acceptance. A bus replacement literally replaces the train and is brought in specifically for the task.

Secondly, no, they're not trying to get out of paying.

An abandoned journey automatically attracts a full refund of the ticket from the point of sale. This is for all singles and returns and wholly unused rover or ranger tickets (that's quite a lot of money there). Season tickets cannot be refunded in this way, but then again you do get a massive discount, so it's swings and roundabouts. A Delay Repay refund of £1.50 for the small number of season ticket holders who do claim is not going to affect TOC advice for disruption!

Once you go home, you have abandoned your journey.

If you then made another journey later, then it can be judged on its own merits.

najaB said:

How long was your journey by train delayed by?

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They were cancelled.
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AlterEgo said:

It's not a bus replacement service - it's cross-ticket acceptance. A bus replacement literally replaces the train and is brought in specifically for the task.

Secondly, no, they're not trying to get out of paying.

An abandoned journey automatically attracts a full refund of the ticket from the point of sale. This is for all singles and returns and wholly unused rover or ranger tickets (that's quite a lot of money there). Season tickets cannot be refunded in this way, but then again you do get a massive discount, so it's swings and roundabouts. A Delay Repay refund of £1.50 for the small number of season ticket holders who do claim is not going to affect TOC advice for disruption!

Once you go home, you have abandoned your journey.

If you then made another journey later, then it can be judged on its own merits.

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I agree the discount is massive and I'm not complaing.

I would say (pedantically) that by cancelling service after service that day, the TOCs effectively abandoned the journey for everyone. I was suprised that no other means of travel appeared that morning - most people left the station as the situation became clear and either took the day off, worked from home, or drove in I expect.

AlterEgo said:

It's not a bus replacement service - it's cross-ticket acceptance.

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Indeed. However, someone making their journey as ticketed, but using cross-ticket acceptance put on for that specific incident, is in my view still making their journey and is still entitled to Delay Repay based on the time they actually arrive at their destination.

FWIW, I do take the view that an abandoned (partially or fully) journey on a season ticket, where abandoned because the problems with the service made the journey impossible, should attract a full refund of that day of the season ticket, calculated the same way as for Delay Repay. This would be a better substitute than void days, which often benefit those who didn't travel, or aren't imposed because the service breakdown only occurred for a short period - but enough of a period to make the journey pointless.

boxy321 said:

They were cancelled.

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Hence no delay repay. You should be entitled to other compensation by other means though.

Going around in circles now.