Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

ah-media · 4 Oct 2016

I understand the concern from drivers (such as Dave1987) that they believe that DOO is unsafe. I don't work in the industry and I really don't want to be telling people that they are right or wrong - I'm trying to get my head around the facts.

So, just doing "back of a fag packet" maths ... There are (give or take) 22,500 trains per day according to Network Rail. Say 25% is freight, that means that on your average day, there are just under 17,000 passenger train diagrams.

The figures I have seen suggest that DOO is operated on around 30% of all passenger services, so that is a little more than 5,000 DOO diagrams run every day in the UK.

If DOO is so unsafe, how can 35,000 trains run a week with no injuries or fatalities?
I understand that this is not the whole argument, but this is the RMT's argument - safety will decrease ... but has safety decreased in the last year? The last 5 years? Has there been a sharp increase in the number of injuries and deaths on the railway due to DOO?

Totally understand this is an emotive subject but I'm struggling to see how the facts back up the argument that DOO is explicitly more unsafe.

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Mordac · 4 Oct 2016

FordFocus said:
They can't and in fairness to them (rare) they never said it was guaranteed after 2021.

That's precisely my point though, people are asking them to guarantee something that is outwith their power to do so!

FordFocus · 4 Oct 2016

ah-media said:
If DOO is so unsafe, how can 35,000 trains run a week with no injuries or fatalities?

Out of the last 11 platform train interface incidents that RAIB have investigated, 9 have involved DOO trains. West Wickham was one of the latest ones in which involved the lady involved had suffered life changing injuries. The argument put forward by myself (a DOO driver), the unions and several others on here is that a guard has a much better view of the platform than grainy, blurred DOO monitors.

redbutton · 4 Oct 2016

ah-media said:
I understand the concern from drivers (such as Dave1987) that they believe that DOO is unsafe. I don't work in the industry and I really don't want to be telling people that they are right or wrong - I'm trying to get my head around the facts.

So, just doing "back of a fag packet" maths ... There are (give or take) 22,500 trains per day according to Network Rail. Say 25% is freight, that means that on your average day, there are just under 17,000 passenger train diagrams.

The figures I have seen suggest that DOO is operated on around 30% of all passenger services, so that is a little more than 5,000 DOO diagrams run every day in the UK.

If DOO is so unsafe, how can 35,000 trains run a week with no injuries or fatalities?
I understand that this is not the whole argument, but this is the RMT's argument - safety will decrease ... but has safety decreased in the last year? The last 5 years? Has there been a sharp increase in the number of injuries and deaths on the railway due to DOO?

Totally understand this is an emotive subject but I'm struggling to see how the facts back up the argument that DOO is explicitly more unsafe.

Personally, I don't think DOO is inherently unsafe when implemented properly, but it is less safe especially the way GTR are doing it. The main reason GTR (acting as a proxy for the DfT) are doing this in the first place is to save money. The customer service angle is bull manure. The primary reason to do it is so that they can cut staffing levels to the bare minimum (and eventually zero, according to some) without risking cancellations when the diagrams go uncovered. There are also significant backoffice savings to be had by making them non-safety-critical (e.g. no need for proper training, assessments, medicals, et cetera.) None of this will be passed on to the customers-- it goes straight into the corporate coffers.

There are also reports that the proper assessments including those under RSSB RIS 2703 (which sets the industry standard for checks that should take place before clearing a route for DOO using bodyside CCTV) weren't done in time for the start of DOO services this week, but they went ahead anyway. This is yet another example of the DOO-or-bust mentality that the company have taken up.

Whether or not you think there should be more DOO, I hope you'll agree that this isn't the way to do it. It should be a well-planned, deliberate process that is done with the co-operation and agreement of all stakeholders-- not pushed through over their genuine concerns and objections.

AlterEgo · 4 Oct 2016

Dave1987 said:
Not really what do cabin crew do that a guard doesn't?

You need to take more planes!

gimmea50anyday · 4 Oct 2016

Ah, well. Think lesson has been learned in how NOT to run a PR campaign.....

gimmea50anyday · 4 Oct 2016

Dave1987 said:
what do cabin crew do that a guard doesn't?

can gell you what we DO do.....

Open and close doors (train door, cabin door)
Safety announcements (but no demonstrations on where the emergency exits are

)
On board sales (tickets vs catering and duty free)
Checks tickets.....
Assist with boarding and alighting - even help with overhead racks (overhead lockers equivalent)
Safety trained with evacuation proceedures and applicable rules and regs
Brings driver/pilot cups of tea/coffee etc :lol:

civ · 4 Oct 2016

ah-media said:
The figures I have seen suggest that DOO is operated on around 30% of all passenger services, so that is a little more than 5,000 DOO diagrams run every day in the UK.

If DOO is so unsafe, how can 35,000 trains run a week with no injuries or fatalities?
I understand that this is not the whole argument, but this is the RMT's argument - safety will decrease ... but has safety decreased in the last year? The last 5 years? Has there been a sharp increase in the number of injuries and deaths on the railway due to DOO?

Totally understand this is an emotive subject but I'm struggling to see how the facts back up the argument that DOO is explicitly more unsafe.

I'll make one observation.

On the part of the network I use, South London, DOO has been in operation since slam door trains were withdrawn.

This was for a long time with 4 car and 8 car formations.

In the last 5? years it has increased to 10 car formations.

So some of the stats to date, cover a period where the driver has been in charge of much shorter trains than we are seeing now. I'm not sure where the DOO is being rolled out but I know that in some cases on the network the formations will be moving to 12 cars.

That's a lot of train for one person to check, then add in a rammed rush hour platform, then add in a curved platform, then add in at some times the darkness of morning or night...

I've today seen a recent (2 months old) screen shot of the drivers monitors from the cab on a 377 - they are not good at all.

Dave1987 · 4 Oct 2016

ah-media said:
I understand the concern from drivers (such as Dave1987) that they believe that DOO is unsafe. I don't work in the industry and I really don't want to be telling people that they are right or wrong - I'm trying to get my head around the facts.

So, just doing "back of a fag packet" maths ... There are (give or take) 22,500 trains per day according to Network Rail. Say 25% is freight, that means that on your average day, there are just under 17,000 passenger train diagrams.

The figures I have seen suggest that DOO is operated on around 30% of all passenger services, so that is a little more than 5,000 DOO diagrams run every day in the UK.

If DOO is so unsafe, how can 35,000 trains run a week with no injuries or fatalities?
I understand that this is not the whole argument, but this is the RMT's argument - safety will decrease ... but has safety decreased in the last year? The last 5 years? Has there been a sharp increase in the number of injuries and deaths on the railway due to DOO?

Totally understand this is an emotive subject but I'm struggling to see how the facts back up the argument that DOO is explicitly more unsafe.

Well two things, firstly read the RAIB report on Kentish Town. Tells you exactly what can happen when the preverbial hits the fan. Secondly back in the early 90's there was a Lauda Air Boeing 767 that crashed because there were two short circuits in the same engine at the same time. Boeing said that the likelihood of two shorts happening at the same time was something like 1 in a billion and the likelihood of it ever happening again was just as unlikely, yet they still spent millions of dollars modifying the 767 fleet to ensure it never could happen again. Now under your way of thinking Boeing should not have bothered and should have saved the money on something that was statistically never going to happen again but they did it anyway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

AlterEgo said:
You need to take more planes!

Well my passion is aviation, I know fully well exactly what cabin crew do and what they are trained in. If DOO is totally safe then flights without cabin crew are totally safe as well.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
What we have here are people who have never driven a train in their lives claiming they know better than drivers who drive trains day in day. Kinda makes me feel entitled to go onto a flying forum and tell some pilots I know better they do about stuff.

thelem · 4 Oct 2016

Dave1987 said:
I totally disagree. Then what do I know I'm just a driver who does the job day in day out :roll:

In that case I assume in my original scenario, you'd wait the extra 20 minutes and board the train with a guard?

Minstral25 · 4 Oct 2016

sarahj said:
Full list of trains that went DOO on monday

Please find list of trains operating DOO as from Monday 03rd October;

DOO SX - London to Horsham route (DOO (P) London - Three Bridges- London )

What exactly does the (P) mean on DOO(P)?
I've seen it several times at it appears to be different from just DOO

Carlisle · 4 Oct 2016

Minstral25 said:
What exactly does the (P) mean on DOO(P)?
I've seen it several times at it appears to be different from just DOO

Passanger train, as opposed to (ECS) empty coaching stock or freight

Minstral25 · 4 Oct 2016

Carlisle said:
Passanger train, as opposed to (ECS) empty coaching stock or freight

thanks

infobleep · 4 Oct 2016

gimmea50anyday said:
Ah, well. Think lesson has been learned in how NOT to run a PR campaign.....

Lol. I just have to laugh. Beggars belief. What planet were they on. Is the stress of it all getting to them?

Whether people like the RMT or not, just certainly don't like GTR or enough of them don't to make such a campaign fail.

I see they were in the metro against tonight. Do another £60,000. Still they could cut some staff numbers to pay for that.

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redbutton · 4 Oct 2016

Carlisle said:
Passanger train, as opposed to (ECS) empty coaching stock or freight

It's DOO(P) or DOO(NP). Non-Passenger refers to ECS moves, freight, etc.

Carlisle · 4 Oct 2016

redbutton said:
It's DOO(P) or DOO(NP). Non-Passenger refers to ECS moves, freight, etc.

Ok cheers

plcd1 · 4 Oct 2016

infobleep said:
Lol. I just have to laugh. Beggars belief. What planet were they on. Is the stress of it all getting to them?

Whether people like the RMT or not, just certainly don't like GTR or enough of them don't to make such a campaign fail.

I see they were in the metro against tonight. Do another £60,000. Still they could cut some staff numbers to pay for that.

I'd not be astonished if this media campaign is indirectly funded by the DfT. Obviously Southern will place the ads but with all the financial machinations that have undoubtedly gone on with the GTR franchise contract who's to say a few hundred thousand quid haven't mysteriously been found "in the budget". "Oh we didn't fine you for the last 3 months worth of cancellations. Have a load of dosh."

It was quite clearly an entirely co-ordinated set of moves with DfT knowledge and most likely sign off. You don't do this without your paymaster, given it's a management contract, knowing what the heck is being done and when. The fact Grayling was more than prepared with his conference speech and line for the inevitable media coverage shows this was all completely orchestrated alongside the appalling stance taken over "negotiations" (i.e. bribery and threat of mass sackings).

Chrisgr31 · 4 Oct 2016

plcd1 said:
I'd not be astonished if this media campaign is indirectly funded by the DfT. Obviously Southern will place the ads but with all the financial machinations that have undoubtedly gone on with the GTR franchise contract who's to say a few hundred thousand quid haven't mysteriously been found "in the budget".

I wouldn't be surprised if effectively the DfT were paying which of course means the taxpayers and passengers.

It is a management contract so I assume it depends on the marketing budget and what it is permitted to be spent on. I guess the DfT contributes to a marketing budget

Carlisle · 4 Oct 2016

infobleep said:
Lol. I just have to laugh. Beggars belief. What planet were they on. Is the stress of it all getting to them?

Whether people like the RMT or not, just certainly don't like GTR or enough of them don't to make such a campaign fail.

Surely a quick call to David Cameron could've saved them a fortune

pompeyfan · 5 Oct 2016

sarahj said:
Well all I'm going to say on the ramp/wheelchair subject is today I was working a train from Southampton to Barnham (Vic) and a wheelchair was placed on my train by the platform staff with a promise of a phone call to Havant to get her off. Needless to say when we got to Havant there was no-one and I used the on-train ramp to de-train the passenger*. No on train staff would mean the wheelchair user would then be off to either Chichester (where there are no platform staff, just barrier staff who come out when contacted), or Pat at Barnham.

Or she could have phoned 24 hours in advance and made sure she stuck to her booked trains. (but even then!!!!)

This is to say wheelchairs and co may be placed on a train at stations which are manned, but if the exit station is not manned, or manned, but not informed, or informed, but forget..... then all the manned stations in the world will not beat a person on the train who knows where the punter is going. I've had to use ramps, or perform other assistance to passengers at stations such as Victoria, even for booked passengers.

* needless to say I had returned to the wheelchair area by Havant in case this was so.

Did you have 2 SWT guards route learning between Fareham and Havant on that train?

Fincra5 · 5 Oct 2016

Antman said:
You can't just dismiss a perfectly reasonable question with the last sentence:roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Always a staff presence at Merstham when I've been there!

No there isn't.

Antman · 5 Oct 2016

Fincra5 said:
No there isn't.

When I've been there I said!

Fincra5 · 5 Oct 2016

Antman said:
When I've been there I said!

Well that useful... :lol:

Astradyne · 5 Oct 2016

sarahj said:
Well all I'm going to say on the ramp/wheelchair subject is today I was working a train from Southampton to Barnham (Vic) and a wheelchair was placed on my train by the platform staff with a promise of a phone call to Havant to get her off. Needless to say when we got to Havant there was no-one and I used the on-train ramp to de-train the passenger*. No on train staff would mean the wheelchair user would then be off to either Chichester (where there are no platform staff, just barrier staff who come out when contacted), or Pat at Barnham.

Or she could have phoned 24 hours in advance and made sure she stuck to her booked trains. (but even then!!!!)

This is to say wheelchairs and co may be placed on a train at stations which are manned, but if the exit station is not manned, or manned, but not informed, or informed, but forget..... then all the manned stations in the world will not beat a person on the train who knows where the punter is going. I've had to use ramps, or perform other assistance to passengers at stations such as Victoria, even for booked passengers.

* needless to say I had returned to the wheelchair area by Havant in case this was so.

I hope you reported your companies procedural failings so it could be investigated why it went wrong.

gietek · 5 Oct 2016

A few days ago I had a wheelchair user travelling to Crawley. Despite the phone call there was nobody there to assist.
I belive it is necessary for a second person to be on board a train providing assistance.
And there are also issues like people sitting in the wrong part of a splitter, and tourists having no idea where they're going and passengers who can't speak English at all.

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Astradyne · 5 Oct 2016

gietek said:
A few days ago I had a wheelchair user travelling to Crawley. Despite the phone call there was nobody there to assist.
I belive it is necessary for a second person to be on board a train providing assistance.
And there are also issues like people sitting in the wrong part of a splitter, and tourists having no idea where they're going and passengers who can't speak English at all.

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

Again have you reported this to your company ... otherwise that will not know their failings ... so that can take corrective processes.

ComUtoR · 5 Oct 2016

Astradyne said:
Again have you reported this to your company ... otherwise that will not know their failings ... so that can take corrective processes.

It gets reported numerous times. Nothing changes and the TOC's brush it under the carpet like it didn't happen. In fact, it's such a common occurrence that most just shrug their shoulders and move on.

It's all well and good asking people to report it but what do you actually believe will or should happen ?

gietek · 5 Oct 2016

ComUtoR said:
It gets reported numerous times. Nothing changes and the TOC's brush it under the carpet like it didn't happen. In fact, it's such a common occurrence that most just shrug their shoulders and move on.

It's all well and good asking people to report it but what do you actually believe will or should happen ?

Ditto.

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sarahj · 5 Oct 2016

pompeyfan said:
Did you have 2 SWT guards route learning between Fareham and Havant on that train?

Oh, that's what they were doing, just thought they were passing. The wheelchair woman was asking me about delay repay and the 30 mins. I asked them about SWT's version and they told me it was an hour for them.

(finds out someone is always watching.

)

ushawk · 5 Oct 2016

On board staff have just received an email/letter confirming that if the RMT don't accept GTR's offer by Midday tomorrow (which they have of course already refused), then GTR will issue staff letters on Friday, which would be -

1. Those who have opted to go OBS will have this confirmed
2. Those who haven't chose to go OBS from Conductor will be given 12 weeks notice of a move to OBS
3. Confirmation to those who will remain conductors.

Conductor depots will remain at Barnham, Brighton, Eastbourne and Selhurst with conductor numbers increasing slightly. It looks as if OBS will be fully implemented by the beginning of January, but no solid date confirmed. No doubt GTR need to heavily recruit to ensure all current services with a second staff member on board continue to do so.

It's also worth noting that the majority of the coastal routes haven't been signed off for DOO working yet either, so that needs to happen as well!

Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

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