Should OAPs and Disabled get free train travel?

SGB1953 · 9 Oct 2016

bramling said:
Actually, my experience would say it's the other way round. It's quite possible to find some pretty empty suburban trains around the London area during M-F daytime (less so at weekends nowadays). In contrast, many services outside the London area tend to be quite full during the day. Partly this is because of what generally tends to be shorter length, but also it has to be said my perception is there appears to be a greater proportion of people who aren't at work for one reason or another.

In case it helps, my limited experience rather supports this. Most of my travel is by train commuting on the Hastings line to London. They are normally full or close to full. However I also do quite a bit of weekday off-peak travel in the area. Quite a lot of the trains are barely half full, though I wouldn't suggest halving the length! A few months ago I got a 12-carriage train from East Croydon to East Grinstead in the middle of the day. Even at its busiest it was very quiet.

The relatively few trains I've caught outside the South East recently, usually long distance trains, have always been pretty busy.

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The Ham · 9 Oct 2016

Universal benefits are fairly small fry in comparison to the state pension, which U think should be moved to the same system as child support, where those claiming it and earning over £40,000 start to be taxed more to recoup part of the payments made, up to a point where those earning over £50,000 don't receive anything.

As it is all done through the current self assessment system there would be no extra costs in means testing.

That could then allow our universal benefits to improve marginally and still cost the government less money.

Directly related to the original question, either provide a prepaid card with an expiration date to allow (say) £600 of rail travel. In doing so it would enable those with poor local bus services to use it for quite a lot of travel whilst those who use it for long distance travel would only get a few trips out of it.

Alternatively have a you are provided with a smart card which you touch in and out but can inly travel a set number of stations before you have to tap in again. If the limit counted all stations along a line then it would stop intercity travel if the limit was (say) 5 stops. It would make long distance rail travel for free very slow and annoying so people wouldn't bother.

90019 · 10 Oct 2016

fowler9 said:
Lets get one thing straight. The average UK wage is £26500. This is massively distorted by really high earners. Out of about 400 people in my office there can't be over 20 who earn that or more. The vast majority are earning around £15000. In this day and age 2 people earning £15000 will not pay for a mortgage on a decent house and allow for savings.

I have to disagree.
I earn about £25k and live on my own, I have a mortgage on a flat near the centre of Edinburgh (I could easily get a decent sized house further out), run two cars, spend money every few weeks driving to and from Hull (and eating out while there), and still put money into my savings.

If you can't get a mortgage on a property outside London with a combined income of £30k, you're doing it wrong.
Perhaps your opinion of a decent house is something much bigger than you need?

HH · 10 Oct 2016

I should point out that the average wage varies from location to location. It is much higher in London than it is in Skegness, for example. Taking a national average and comparing it to a specific location is simply not valid.

AM9 · 10 Oct 2016

SGB1953 said:
In case it helps, my limited experience rather supports this. Most of my travel is by train commuting on the Hastings line to London. They are normally full or close to full. However I also do quite a bit of weekday off-peak travel in the area. Quite a lot of the trains are barely half full, though I wouldn't suggest halving the length! A few months ago I got a 12-carriage train from East Croydon to East Grinstead in the middle of the day. Even at its busiest it was very quiet.

The relatively few trains I've caught outside the South East recently, usually long distance trains, have always been pretty busy.

That last sentence of yours is the most relevant. Long distance travel is generally quite well loaded throughout the day whereas off-peak local and suburban trains are quiet almost everywhere, not just around London. I've travelled around Lancashire between the peak hours and the trains are less loaded than the (most) equivalent London examples. Even Liverpool to Manchester - both non-stop TPE and slow Northern trains only had about one quarter of the seats occupied.
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Butts said:
I agree with the basic principle of providing concessionary travel for people above a certain age.

Someone mentioned earlier the scheme is over generous in Scotland. Some services should be excluded like the 747 to Edinburgh Airport from Fife. Sometimes I have just about been the only fare paying passenger.If they can afford to be jetting off somewhere......

Also the qualifying age has not kept up with the State Pension Age and as people mentioned you get commuters using the pass to get to work. Should the two be the same ?

Perhaps a compromise would be to charge child fares to concession holders ?

I agree that passes should be targeted at the elderly who are no-longer in work. The problem is that since the banking crisis, the line between in-work and retired has become very blurred. With the rise of self-promotion and kitchen-table internet suppliers, at the lower end together with the increasing number of those living off investments and property renting, just what is a retired person?
I am all for using the tax system in the same way as child benefits though where the 40% and 45% bands are lowered once the person has a pass registered to them. There would be an incremental cost of pass issuers notifying HMRC but that should be creditied back to the issuer from the additional tax gathered.
Persoanlly, I get less than £200 travel (at full price) on my ENCTS card*, but the real value is having a ready to use pass for use anytime/anywhere without needing loose change or being able to use any other charge mechanism.
* In my case, most of my non-local travel is in London when I have a Zone 1-6 travelcard and I always use that rather than charge Herts. County Council by using my concession card. I did use the 712 Green Line when it was running once to get to Victoria but the service collapsed and I had to catch the 797 back to Hatfield. It was just too slow to do it again.

The Ham · 10 Oct 2016

90019 said:
I have to disagree.
I earn about £25k and live on my own, I have a mortgage on a flat near the centre of Edinburgh (I could easily get a decent sized house further out), run two cars, spend money every few weeks driving to and from Hull (and eating out while there), and still put money into my savings.

If you can't get a mortgage on a property outside London with a combined income of £30k, you're doing it wrong.
Perhaps your opinion of a decent house is something much bigger than you need?

Two follow up points from either side of the argument:

- two people earning £15,000 each would be paying less tax than one person on £25,000 and so should be able to afford more.

- it very much depends on where in the UK you live and what house prices are in your area. There are some fairly expensive areas within London commuter distances where it may not be affordable to many people with a household income of £30,000 depending on what their circumstances are (i.e. do they have; student loans, credit card debt, children, etc.) and how much deposit they can save up.

As an example; a couple buying their first home as a £205,000 one bedroom flat (located an hour from a London Terminus) brought with an £11,000 deposit would cost circa £900 per month on a 3.75% mortgage, given that £15,000 would give you a take home salary of circa £1,100 that leaves you about £1,300 for the couple to live on. However that is assuming that banks would even lend you the £194,000 to start with, as an example, one only offering a loan of £99,000 for a couple on £15,000 each.

Current earnings vs mortgage payments also depend on how long the property has been owned for, as someone buying a 2 bed flat for sub £50,000 in the mid 90's would have cleared a sizable chunk of their debt with the property now worth circa £200,000 meaning that their loan to value ratio enables them to get a very good interest rate.

Even a couple having bought a two bedroom house for £200,000 6 years ago (for the same if not less than the one bedroom flat used as an example above) could have cleared circa £15,000 from their mortgage and with rising house prices they could well be on a fairly favorable interest rate which first time buyers could only wish to be able to offered on a property that they can only dream of being able to afford.

ivanhoe · 10 Oct 2016

Senior railcard is fine for Senior Citizens. I am of that age, and I am happy with that provision. I see no need to be rewarded with free rail travel. The problem I see is we are now in an era where many young people over the age of 26 are on low salaries. I'd like to help younger people more who need it.

6Gman · 10 Oct 2016

ivanhoe said:
Senior railcard is fine for Senior Citizens. I am of that age, and I am happy with that provision. I see no need to be rewarded with free rail travel. The problem I see is we are now in an era where many young people over the age of 26 are on low salaries. I'd like to help younger people more who need it.

Well said that man (or woman)!

I think there are a few questions that need to be asked if free travel was to be provided for OAPs and the disabled (whatever that may mean):

1. How much would it cost?
2. How would it be funded? Higher fares for others? Taxation? Cutting something else?
3. Does it provide a benefit equal to its cost?
4. If additional money is to be channelled toward OAPs and disabled is this the priority? (At a time when care services are being cut back does it make sense to divert funds to people who - by definition - are likely to be in less need?)

ChiefPlanner · 10 Oct 2016

ivanhoe said:
Senior railcard is fine for Senior Citizens. I am of that age, and I am happy with that provision. I see no need to be rewarded with free rail travel. The problem I see is we are now in an era where many young people over the age of 26 are on low salaries. I'd like to help younger people more who need it.

Quite - my 2 eldest are graduates and earning (take home about £1200 a month) , with student debts etc , so the YP Railcard is a great benefit for their social etc lives, - good to see this extended to maybe 30.

Dr_Paul · 10 Oct 2016

In London, at the age of 60, one is eligible for free travel all day on the buses and on LT, TFL and Overground services, and main-line rail after 09.30. I am a holder of an over-60s Oyster card, I travel most of the time off-peak, and I am basically filling up spare capacity. Very rarely are there no seats available off peak. I avoid peak-time travel if I can possibly help it, as it is no fun whatsoever.

I doubt if any prospective candidate for London Mayor would dare consider removing this, as this would be a sure-fire vote-killer. But that's not all. I've spoken to various people with these free-travel cards, and one thing is pretty clear: when we're out travelling using our cards we often visit cafés or other places and spend money. It may be just a couple of quid or so in a day, but when measured each year over the several thousand people in our position in and around London, it adds up to quite a bit of business.

So giving over-60s free travel in London doesn't impinge on paying passengers, and provides businesses, and often small local ones, with custom.

fowler9 · 10 Oct 2016

mph1977 said:
except of course it isn;t becaude it's the median , not the mean. it is important to realise the difference between these.

an office doing what ?

I could equally point you in the direction of many work places where most people are earning rather more than 15 k - bearing in mind that someone working a 37.5 hour week for the over 25 NMW earning in excess of 14 k

all of whom are there through choice or refusal to engage ... but the statutory duty of Local authorities to house the homeless seems to be ignored by those who do not wish to either recognise that the duty is only exercised by one LA for an individual and there is not a free choice in that ...

this duty is phrased in the temr ofthe local link to prevent a dispropotyionate burden falling on large city LAs housing people with no local link but a want to live there ...

i would be interested to see the figures claiming that large numbers of workinfg people are using food banks vs those whose DWP benefits are delayed or those who have been sanctioned because they couldn't be arsed to communicate with the DWP.

just as those claiming ' there are no jobs' do so often while within walking distance of employers bussing people in from the local big town / city becasuethe local population seem to think they are above joining an organisation at the entry level and working their way up through demonstrating a positive attiude towards work .

typical corbynite politics of jealousy
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Motability is the use of Higher rate Mobility componenet or PIP or a war pension to pay for a vehicle lease , the alternative is to recieve the mobility component as a cash payment ... in both cases someone eligible for HRMC is likely to also be eligible for a ENCTS disability pass ... as the criteria for an ENCTS disability is less than for even the lower rate mobility supplements ( someone who has a seizure disorder or is partially sighted or is treated with certain mental health drugs can have an ENCTS disability pass although they would not qualify for the mobility component of PIP )

I take on board what you are saying but if I can start with two things, not everyone who is homeless is there by choice or refusal to engage, that is like saying that mental illness is a choice.

Secondly people having to claim in work benefits isn't Corbynite politics of jealousy, its is an utterly ridiculous situation. People in employment having to claim Housing Benefit to be able to afford a home is insane. Why should society as a whole have to top up poor wages?

najaB · 10 Oct 2016

fowler9 said:
Secondly people having to claim in work benefits isn't Corbynite politics of jealousy, its is an utterly ridiculous situation. People in employment having to claim Housing Benefit to be able to afford a home is insane. Why should society as a whole have to top up poor wages?

The problem with housing is more supply-side. Right to buy took a lot of social housing out of the market and there hasn't been nearly enough replacement.

fowler9 · 10 Oct 2016

najaB said:
The problem with housing is more supply-side. Right to buy took a lot of social housing out of the market and there hasn't been nearly enough replacement.

Yeah that is true to an extent. I have worked in Social Housing and currently in MOD housing though and there isn't really a shortage of housing stock. If there is a shortage it is due to a vast inflation in housing and housing repairs costs. You are totally correct in the sense that Right To Buy and Buy To Let landlords have forced prices up. This is not down to the politics of jealousy.

PeterC · 10 Oct 2016

So giving over-60s free travel in London doesn't impinge on paying passengers, and provides businesses, and often small local ones, with custom.

Plenty of people use their 60+ card to commute.

It must be remembered, however, that this is not a state benefit but is a direct subsidy from TfL brought in by a Conservative mayor.

The qualifying age for ENCTS is being raised in line with the women's pension age and will be at 66 in 2019.

3141 · 10 Oct 2016

I have “managed not to die” (as najaB charmingly put it post no. 5) for 77 years, but I don’t think I should get free rail travel. Like everybody I have to make decisions about how to spend my money and set my priorities. My age doesn’t give me the right to go by train for nothing wherever I might wish.

I don’t think being disabled should entitle anyone to free rail travel either.

But there may be some older and/or disabled people whose circumstances would justify the provision of free travel far more than mine do.

HH · 10 Oct 2016

fowler9 said:
You are totally correct in the sense that Right To Buy and Buy To Let landlords have forced prices up.

Some of them are the same people...

fowler9 · 10 Oct 2016

HH said:
Some of them are the same people...

I never said they weren't.

AnonymousUser1 · 11 Oct 2016

90019 said:
I have to disagree.
I earn about £25k and live on my own, I have a mortgage on a flat near the centre of Edinburgh (I could easily get a decent sized house further out), run two cars, spend money every few weeks driving to and from Hull (and eating out while there), and still put money into my savings.

If you can't get a mortgage on a property outside London with a combined income of £30k, you're doing it wrong.
Perhaps your opinion of a decent house is something much bigger than you need?

when did you purchase that property ( year) ?

90019 · 11 Oct 2016

mph1977 said:
when did you purchase that property ( year) ?

2016.

The Ham · 11 Oct 2016

90019 said:
2016.

...and is it your first property?

Phil. · 11 Oct 2016

90019 said:
I have to disagree.
I earn about £25k and live on my own, I have a mortgage on a flat near the centre of Edinburgh (I could easily get a decent sized house further out), run two cars, spend money every few weeks driving to and from Hull (and eating out while there), and still put money into my savings.

If you can't get a mortgage on a property outside London with a combined income of £30k, you're doing it wrong.
Perhaps your opinion of a decent house is something much bigger than you need?

Is that £25K before or after tax? I'm thinking that you must live on bread and dripping.

90019 · 11 Oct 2016

The Ham said:
...and is it your first property?

Yes.

Phil. said:
Is that £25K before or after tax? I'm thinking that you must live on bread and dripping.

After tax, and I eat pretty well. I tend to cook batches of things and put them in the freezer, along with some ready meals for when I get in from work after midnight.

physics34 · 11 Oct 2016

OAPs off peak yes.

A nice perk as you get older.

Disabled not, based on the fact that they dont wanna be discriminated against and some dont wanna "special treatment/labelling" (barring of course, access).

Railcards, discounts yes though.

Tetchytyke · 11 Oct 2016

90019 said:
If you can't get a mortgage on a property outside London with a combined income of £30k, you're doing it wrong.

The mortgage is not usually the problem, given that rents tend to be equivalent or even higher than the mortgage would be on the equivalent property. The problem is the deposit for the house. Did you save your deposit all by yourself, or did you get the money from inheritance or parents?

£25,000 a year is about £1600 a month net. If you're a single person without debts you should be able to run a house and a car on that money. Saving the deposit for a house would take years though.

Getting back to the original topic, the answer is no. I'm an outspoken critic of ENCTS as being unaffordable, being one of the poor saps who has to pay for the twirlies' days out, the idea of giving them free access to the national rail network is absolutely ridiculous. Many pensioners, with no mortgage and no kids at home, have more disposable income than me; if anything, they should be paying for me to get to work.

The only exception would be where someone has been declared as unfit to drive.

boxy321 · 11 Oct 2016

I actually thought train travel was free after 9:30 for pensioners. In the West Midlands you can go between Coventry, Wolverhampton, Stourbridge and Sutton coldfield around Birmingham, which is a huge area.

PeterC · 11 Oct 2016

I actually thought train travel was free after 9:30 for pensioners. In the West Midlands you can go between Coventry, Wolverhampton, Stourbridge and Sutton coldfield around Birmingham, which is a huge area.

I think that these generous extras given by WM and London lead to a misperception of what ENCTS gives by law and leads to a lot of the hostility to the scheme.

bramling · 11 Oct 2016

ivanhoe said:
Senior railcard is fine for Senior Citizens. I am of that age, and I am happy with that provision. I see no need to be rewarded with free rail travel. The problem I see is we are now in an era where many young people over the age of 26 are on low salaries. I'd like to help younger people more who need it.

I'd go with this.

I'd certainly like to see a national railcard for the age-range which currently doesn't have anything, and I'd definitely prioritise this over free travel for pensioners, who currently have the senior railcard.

The current pensioner generation, particularly those who are just reaching that age now, have had things comparatively good IMO.

OMGitsDAVE · 11 Oct 2016

This is a difficult one - and one I haven't read all the comments to just yet.

In my opinion, neither should get totally free travel. A number of lines in this country are already severely overcrowded and often trains are leaving full and standing - this would only be worse if OAP's and those with a disability were given free travel, as obviously they'd be wanting to travel more frequently too. I believe the railcard is a suitable alternative, and what's not broken, don't fix.

al78 · 11 Oct 2016

OMGitsDAVE said:
This is a difficult one - and one I haven't read all the comments to just yet.

In my opinion, neither should get totally free travel. A number of lines in this country are already severely overcrowded and often trains are leaving full and standing - this would only be worse if OAP's and those with a disability were given free travel, as obviously they'd be wanting to travel more frequently too. I believe the railcard is a suitable alternative, and what's not broken, don't fix.

I'm not sure it is that simple. Wouldn't OAPs try and avoid using the rail network when it is rammed to capacity? If they are not in a full time job they likely will have more flexibility on when to travel, and I can't see it being rational to choose to travel on a train which is rammed full standing for an hour or more, instead of choosing to travel a bit earlier or a bit later on a much quieter train, and have a decent chance of a seat. It is a bit different for those in work who have to be somewhere at a specific time, usually at the same time as everyone else. In addition, do OAPs really treat free public transport like a free Saga tour, just using it to ride around purely because they can for free and have nothing else to do, rather than using it to make necessary journeys? Somehow I doubt it.

Tetchytyke · 11 Oct 2016

al78 said:
I can't see it being rational to choose to travel on a train which is rammed full standing for an hour or more, instead of choosing to travel a bit earlier or a bit later on a much quieter train, and have a decent chance of a seat.

People are often not rational. Unless you specifically barred them from the busiest trains- and these are not always the same as the peak trains- it would be mayhem.

In addition, do OAPs really treat free public transport like a free Saga tour, just using it to ride around purely because they can for free and have nothing else to do, rather than using it to make necessary journeys? Somehow I doubt it.

Yes, yes they do, as you can see by the long lines of twirlies in York and Middlesbrough waiting for the buses to the seaside on a nice summer day. Coastliner and Arriva carry hundreds of people on their buses, most of whom haven't paid. I've been the only one on the X93 to have bought a ticket before now.

Give people free travel and they will use it. Why wouldn't you have a nice day out in London if you didn't have to pay for it?

Should OAPs and Disabled get free train travel?

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