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Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

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387star

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I'm not sure what an INTERCITY 800 is but assuming you mean a Class 800 (and derivatives) then the technical specification has the following to say:

was this agreed after the RMT strike last summer?

They did want the driver with full door responsibility and for the train to run without a TM in times of disruption

strange how it all went quiet around this time last year I think- strikes continued into september
 
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Ok Wilko and Southern haven't handled things particularly well , but that's all a bit of a sideshow, the unions were digging in for this fight in a major way ever since the mc nulty report was published in 2011 and even if Mother Teresa had been at the helm of the DFT I doubt it would have made much difference unless she'd capitulated to virtually all the unions demands

The latest in a run of well argued and well informed posts by Don King who clearly knows what he is talking about - and still someone wants to argue. It seemingly doesn't matter how much experience of reality is brought to this forum.
 

Blindtraveler

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This is just a question for drivers and indeed anyone else and is totaly hypothetical.

Given the above posts on how poor mirrors and cameras are would a better system of warming punters of iminent closure of doors and departure of the train be of any use? Whilst I know it woant help some of the vulnerable, disabled and druncan pax but would a double activation of the hussle alarm, once before the doors close and again as they are closing be of any help, perhaps backed up by flashing lights and an announcement on train?
A plunger om the platform accessed through the drivers window could also activate lights, beeps and a this train is ready to depart announcement on the station also.

Just a randem idea, I am in no way supporting DOO, just wondering if the above would help at all if it is forced upon us.
 

Carlisle

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The latest in a run of well argued and well informed posts by Don King who clearly knows what he is talking about - and still someone wants to argue. It seemingly doesn't matter how much experience of reality is brought to this forum.
i make no apologies for at least trying to argue for better alternatives to these seemingly entrenched and prolonged disputes that ultimately won't help our railways one bit
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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The latest in a run of well argued and well informed posts by Don King who clearly knows what he is talking about - and still someone wants to argue. It seemingly doesn't matter how much experience of reality is brought to this forum.

Whilst there is a wide gap of views between those that are held by Don King and I, I am the first to admit that his postings are very well worded indeed and are spoken in the language of the 21st century in a most clear and concise manner.

Perhaps the RMT could do no worse than to let Don King draw up any future RMT press releases, devoid of all the usual "class war rubbish" comments, that will make matters far more readable textually.
 

Mintona

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i make no apologies for at least trying to argue for better alternatives to these seemingly entrenched and prolonged disputes that ultimately won't help our railways one bit

Hi Carlisle,

Can you please give a valid reason as to why not having a guard will 'help our railways'.
 

embers25

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Hi Carlisle,

Can you please give a valid reason as to why not having a guard will 'help our railways'.

As has been stated before. reasons include:

Less potential for delays as you only need a driver for the train to run, not 2 members of staff.

Less delays waiting for the guard to open doors whilst issuing tickets.

Less delays whilst closing doors due to guard being stopped by someone on the platform asking a random question not even related the that train.

Less influence over the railways from the RMT

Lower running costs to operators (less staff to pay, less uniforms, smaller staff facilities needed etc)

Extra 4 seats could be provided as no need for guard "office" where one is provided

I agree there are pros to guards but you only asked why no guards would help. There certainly are benefits...whether they outweigh the drawbacks is another matter and retaining guards in the OBS role does negate most of the "benefits" above, except the top three.
 

Mordac

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I've been pondering whether to make this post or not, but I've decided to put my two cents in.

The debate has centred around whether there is a safety benefit from having guards operate the doors, and be required to operate a train. I would suggest that this is only half of the issue. The other half is the costs of guard operation, and whether the increase in security they provide justifies the costs.

Before someone dismisses me as a heartless number cruncher, I'd like to point out that in every area of life, we all, both individually and as a society, make decisions where safety is exchanged for some benefit. For instance, we could restrict all cars to 30mph, which would doubtlessly lead to a massive decrease in road fatalities. And yet as a society, we recognize that the costs of doing so would almost certainly exceed the improvement in road safety, and don't do that. Now I'm not comparing the above to guard operation in general, only in the that it involves a tradeoff of safety for something else.

What I would like to know is: what is the expected increase in accidents from moving to DOO? What would be the benefits of doing so (not qualitatively, but quantitatively, i.e., how much would be saved, what would be the gains in operational flexibility, etc)? How could one make DOO safer, and would the cost of doing this be significant as a proportion of the benefits. I don't know the answers to these questions, which is why I have refrained from taking a position on the issue, as much as the RMT's rhetoric makes me want to oppose them. But those questions need to be asked. I don't know if anyone has attempted to find the answers to them, but that's what needed to come to some sort of reasoned position on this issue.
 

tsr

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As has been stated before. reasons include:

Many of which can be countered, if you actually know how Southern rolling stock works...! Not wishing to go round in circles, but seeing as we already are...

Less potential for delays as you only need a driver for the train to run, not 2 members of staff.

But to get 12 sets of bodyside cameras working some days is enough of an issue, then you've got all the problems with delays caused by things which a conductor can deal with (disruptive passengers, passcoms etc.) on a long train, very quickly, or at the very least in around half the time as a driver who also has to tell the signaller they're going to do it, shut down the cab, and then actually walk down to do it. I would be happy to agree that delays starting from origin stations will probably be marginally less, but Southern services already wait for drivers very regularly so waiting for crew is hardly going to go away. What I would argue is that delays due to technical or passenger-related problems en-route are likely to be significantly increased, and as a result, delays are more likely to be accrued at more minor stations with fewer lines and platforms to work round a problem, unlike the more major stations at which you would typically wait for a conductor, which usually (not always) have better facilities to loop trains awaiting crew.

Less delays waiting for the guard to open doors whilst issuing tickets.

Conductors only release doors on a handful of Southern trains and, on those where they do, it is considered imperative that revenue does not take precedence over door control. Thus it is much, much rarer for door opening to be delayed by this, in comparison with other networks.

Less delays whilst closing doors due to guard being stopped by someone on the platform asking a random question not even related the that train.

It is rare for customer service duties to delay dispatch - any which cause a distraction are to be politely ignored, something which is drummed into you from about day 1 or 2 of your training as a conductor...

Less influence over the railways from the RMT

Picking and choosing can end up happening a lot here. GTR and many other companies are perfectly happy to allow the RMT to deal with - and influence - many aspects of the railway, such as checking diagrams for validity. It seems to save the TOCs some effort on occasions, which I am sure they like. I'm not saying it's necessarily the right way of doing things but that point, in and of itself, may not always be seen as a benefit by the TOCs, let alone the RMT. It depends a lot on which policies or operational reasons it relates to!

Indeed GTR/the DfT were perfectly happy to negotiate a position where the RMT could carry out collective bargaining and representation arrangements for OBS staff, proving that some influence was always going to be permitted if they'd allowed a second person to be optional on board a train. I'm actually not sure what the position is with OBS collective bargaining and union representation now, but I should imagine it is somewhat more negative for the RMT than GTR/DfT would have been willing to improve on.

Lower running costs to operators (less staff to pay, less uniforms, smaller staff facilities needed etc)

There really won't be much if any change to things like staff facilities in the short or medium term if conductors are changed to OBSs, and not even if they were all made redundant. Mainly on the basis of historic reasons, there's a massive variation in staff facilities on the Southern network, and you will find that not a lot about this can actually be changed very quickly, in a lot of cases. At best it is a fringe benefit.

If you get rid of permanently-appointed railway staff then you will very often need to spend money for redundancy or severance pay, as well as spending money on people calculating it, and if you don't get rid of them but keep them in some sort of vaguely comparable job, actual pay costs and certainly the infrastructure to manage them will probably not differ that hugely.

As for uniform, in the case of GTR it's now been supplied in full to all current staff who need it, and therefore is now on an ad-hoc renewal scheme, so you're only looking at supplying full kit for new entrants; other than that, the design, supply infrastructure (such as it is, ho ho), much of the procurement, etc. are all done. So you're just looking at costs on an as-and-when basis. It can be calculated, I'm sure, but the actual savings may be minimal on the face of the whole TOC operations budget.

Extra 4 seats could be provided as no need for guard "office" where one is provided

You don't have conductors' offices on most Southern trains (they were even ripped out on the ex-170s). Only on the now-very-rare 442s, and even that's just a glorified luggage compartment really. Next...

I agree there are pros to guards but you only asked why no guards would help. There certainly are benefits...whether they outweigh the drawbacks is another matter and retaining guards in the OBS role does negate most of the "benefits" above, except the top three.

As you can see "no guards" (and, indeed, "no OBSs") provides a surprisingly small benefit, probably outweighed by negatives which are yet to emerge anyway. And we've already discussed what happens if there's another "Kentish Town", a major accident, PTI incident...
 

embers25

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Many of which can be countered, if you actually know how Southern rolling stock works...! Not wishing to go round in circles, but seeing as we already are...



But to get 12 sets of bodyside cameras working some days is enough of an issue, then you've got all the problems with delays caused by things which a conductor can deal with (disruptive passengers, passcoms etc.) on a long train, very quickly, or at the very least in around half the time as a driver who also has to tell the signaller they're going to do it, shut down the cab, and then actually walk down to do it. I would be happy to agree that delays starting from origin stations will probably be marginally less, but Southern services already wait for drivers very regularly so waiting for crew is hardly going to go away. What I would argue is that delays due to technical or passenger-related problems en-route are likely to be significantly increased, and as a result, delays are more likely to be accrued at more minor stations with fewer lines and platforms to work round a problem, unlike the more major stations at which you would typically wait for a conductor, which usually (not always) have better facilities to loop trains awaiting crew.



Conductors only release doors on a handful of Southern trains and, on those where they do, it is considered imperative that revenue does not take precedence over door control. Thus it is much, much rarer for door opening to be delayed by this, in comparison with other networks.



It is rare for customer service duties to delay dispatch - any which cause a distraction are to be politely ignored, something which is drummed into you from about day 1 or 2 of your training as a conductor...



Picking and choosing can end up happening a lot here. GTR and many other companies are perfectly happy to allow the RMT to deal with - and influence - many aspects of the railway, such as checking diagrams for validity. It seems to save the TOCs some effort on occasions, which I am sure they like. I'm not saying it's necessarily the right way of doing things but that point, in and of itself, may not always be seen as a benefit by the TOCs, let alone the RMT. It depends a lot on which policies or operational reasons it relates to!

Indeed GTR/the DfT were perfectly happy to negotiate a position where the RMT could carry out collective bargaining and representation arrangements for OBS staff, proving that some influence was always going to be permitted if they'd allowed a second person to be optional on board a train. I'm actually not sure what the position is with OBS collective bargaining and union representation now, but I should imagine it is somewhat more negative for the RMT than GTR/DfT would have been willing to improve on.



There really won't be much if any change to things like staff facilities in the short or medium term if conductors are changed to OBSs, and not even if they were all made redundant. Mainly on the basis of historic reasons, there's a massive variation in staff facilities on the Southern network, and you will find that not a lot about this can actually be changed very quickly, in a lot of cases. At best it is a fringe benefit.

If you get rid of permanently-appointed railway staff then you will very often need to spend money for redundancy or severance pay, as well as spending money on people calculating it, and if you don't get rid of them but keep them in some sort of vaguely comparable job, actual pay costs and certainly the infrastructure to manage them will probably not differ that hugely.

As for uniform, in the case of GTR it's now been supplied in full to all current staff who need it, and therefore is now on an ad-hoc renewal scheme, so you're only looking at supplying full kit for new entrants; other than that, the design, supply infrastructure (such as it is, ho ho), much of the procurement, etc. are all done. So you're just looking at costs on an as-and-when basis. It can be calculated, I'm sure, but the actual savings may be minimal on the face of the whole TOC operations budget.



You don't have conductors' offices on most Southern trains (they were even ripped out on the ex-170s). Only on the now-very-rare 442s, and even that's just a glorified luggage compartment really. Next...



As you can see "no guards" (and, indeed, "no OBSs") provides a surprisingly small benefit, probably outweighed by negatives which are yet to emerge anyway. And we've already discussed what happens if there's another "Kentish Town", a major accident, PTI incident...

Happy to accept your very reasoned and simple response. Can't argue with much there to be honest. Wondered why Southern guards sat in normal seats as I'm mainly used to SWT. Should really have spotted the lack of Guard cubby hole! The awful monitors is obviosly a huge issue that GTR continue to ignore on existing DOO and I can understand any drivers concerns about those. The issue of passenger alarm response times on DOO is actually probably more important than it sounds actually as numerous times I've seen guards rush to toilets due to people hitting the alarm not "lock" and most times the person inside is panicked and on DOO I know the driver could in theory talk to the person but that's unlikely to calm them so the potential for "freak outs" is high which is never a good thing for anyone. Also getting people in the right part of a splitting train is always a challenge (never understood why given the monitors are so clear now) and certainly on 159's the guards play musical chairs with passengers on approach to Salisbury almost every time and at Haywards thats certainly true too. I still don't get why guards need detailed route knowledge (except the obvious need to know where their train is going) but why more detailed than that (except platform lengths obviously)?
 
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JamesTT

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It seems to me the main issue in the negotiations is neither party will budge on the what happens if the OBS is not available. If you had to draw up a list of circumstances a train could run with no second person what would these be and are there any additional caveats you would add?
 

Domh245

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It seems to me the main issue in the negotiations is neither party will budge on the what happens if the OBS is not available. If you had to draw up a list of circumstances a train could run with no second person what would these be and are there any additional caveats you would add?

I half suspect that the RMT would consider agreeing to the idea of letting the train run without the OBS during disruption, but they've seen how GTR have acted in destroying their staff relationship/good will, arguing technicalities (ASLEF and the GatEX court case) and so, so they are having to go hard on this to try and protect their member's interests.

The only time that a train could run without an OBS should be when there is major disruption, there is no other excuse for not providing one other than they haven't got enough staff.
 

JamesTT

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I half suspect that the RMT would consider agreeing to the idea of letting the train run without the OBS during disruption, but they've seen how GTR have acted in destroying their staff relationship/good will, arguing technicalities (ASLEF and the GatEX court case) and so, so they are having to go hard on this to try and protect their member's interests.

The only time that a train could run without an OBS should be when there is major disruption, there is no other excuse for not providing one other than they haven't got enough staff.

Well in that case don't make it a local agreement, make it very clear if red or black disruption has been declared and the OBS is more than Xminutes away the train runs DOO(P) Unions get their lawyers to look over the wording and instruct their members never to deviate. Perhaps add in a speed restriction and train can only call at staffed stations
 

gimmea50anyday

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The thing with passcomms is as i understand it some traction units wont allow traction power to be applied when one is activated. There is an override but its effect is only to get tthe train to a position of safety. The driver may be able to reassure the trapped in toilet punter but he still needs to reset the dang thing before he can take power.
 

physics34

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It seems to me the main issue in the negotiations is neither party will budge on the what happens if the OBS is not available. If you had to draw up a list of circumstances a train could run with no second person what would these be and are there any additional caveats you would add?

like i said before, i think the DOO monitors safety argument is virtually dead.

THIS is the main stumbling block now.

If any inch was given about running without a OBS (if they are "unavaliable") opens up the chance for all trains to run without OBS's in the future.... and this is the aim of the DfT in the long term anyway. THis cannot be allowed to happen.

I was thinking yesterday, would allowing full DOO operation (service to still run if no OBS avaliable) between:

Three Bridges and Horsham
London Victoria and Oxted
and maybe the west coastway as far as Barnham...

..be a decent compromise.?? Based on the geography of these lines.?
 
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Carlisle

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Hi Carlisle,

Can you please give a valid reason as to why not having a guard will 'help our railways'.

I don't especially support staffless trains except on metro routes with most/ all statins manned, or as a last resort to save a line/ service from closure on cost grounds, but neither is it inherently wrong to extend SPT or Javelin modes of operation to much of the rest of the network if that's what DFT want , they're well proven over the last 30+years providing you have enough staff to cover, if driver dispatch is as dangerous as the likes of Don King suggest then Isn't it going to end up a relatively simple process for the likes of ASLEF / RMT and eventually RSSB etc to compile a pretty much watertight case for reinstating guard dispatch everywhere pretty soon rendering this discussion largely redundant anyway ?
 
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BestWestern

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like i said before, i think the DOO monitors safety argument is virtually dead.

THIS is the main stumbling block now.

If any inch was given about running without a OBS (if they are "unavaliable") opens up the chance for all trains to run without OBS's in the future.... and this is the aim of the DfT in the long term anyway. THis cannot be allowed to happen.

I was thinking yesterday, would allowing full DOO operation (service to still run if no OBS avaliable) between:

Three Bridges and Horsham
London Victoria and Oxted
and maybe the west coastway as far as Barnham...

..be a decent compromise.?? Based on the geography of these lines.?

There will be no agreement. The aim is to get rid of these staff, OBS is a stepping stone, not a long term job role. The chances of any sort of agreement that obliges GTR to keep OBS indefinitely are absolutely zero.
 

JamesTT

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Those of you that are drivers and conductors for Southern that have retained your conductor status. Will you do your very best to support your OBS colleagues in their role, or will you do your very best to sabotage the role to speed up its demise so you can come back to this forum and say I told you so?
 

BestWestern

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Those of you that are drivers and conductors for Southern that have retained your conductor status. Will you do your very best to support your OBS colleagues in their role, or will you do your very best to sabotage the role to speed up its demise so you can come back to this forum and say I told you so?

What inexplicably dim thing to say.

It's late, go to bed chap.
 
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maniacmartin

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The House of Commons' Transport Select Committee have just published their latest report, dated 14th October 2016. The future of rail: Improving the rail passenger experience; Sixth Report of Session 2016–17 The linked page contains a summary and a link in the top right takes you to a PDF of the full report

I haven't read the report in full yet, but the Southern Railway dispute appears to take up a considerable portion of the it.

Transport Select Committee said:
Government must 'get a grip' on monitoring rail franchise agreements

Southern Railway

The evidence was dominated by the problems faced by Govia Thameslink Railway (operators of Southern Railway) passengers for more than a year: poor management of the franchise from the beginning, inadequate staffing, rolling stock issues, mismanagement and prolonged industrial action complicated by the huge Thameslink infrastructure programme.

The report considers whether GTR is now in default of its contractual obligations. The proportion of services cancelled on GTR's network is now substantially in excess of the default level. In normal circumstances, this would be grounds for termination of the contract.

GTR has made claims for force majeure (which would revise its contractual benchmarks due to events beyond their control). The Committee is critical that crucial processes have been delayed by the 'tardiness' of GTR in supplying the information required to assess the claims.

Should the company be in default, the Department for Transport must take the opportunity to restructure or terminate the agreement and deliver services in a more effective way for passengers. The Committee concludes that the DfT's claim that "no other operator" could do a better job in the circumstances is no longer credible.

The scrutiny of GTR's performance against its contractual obligations was made more difficult by lack of access to essential information. The Committee is calling for this information to be made publicly available.

Please post comments about parts of the report not concerning the Southern dispute in this seperate thread
 
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BestWestern

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The House of Commons' Transport Select Committee have just published their latest report, dated 14th October 2016. The future of rail: Improving the rail passenger experience; Sixth Report of Session 2016–17 The linked page contains a summary and a link in the top right takes you to a PDF of the full report

I haven't read the report in full yet, but the Southern Railway dispute appears to take up a considerable portion of the it.

Hands up who believes for a second that the DfT are likely to take any action whatsoever against their GTR puppets!?

Nope, me neither!
 

maniacmartin

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I've now read the report up to the end of section 3, which includes the Southern problems.

Whilst the Committee is also unhappy with GTR and RMT, most of the criticism is aimed at the DfT. Concerns include the DfT evading questions and withholding evidence that was requested, GTR not supplying requested evidence, and the DfT sheltering GTR rather than taking more robust action. In section 82, the Committee basically calls on DfT to strip GTR of the franchise (but not quite in those words)

Hands up who believes for a second that the DfT are likely to take any action whatsoever against their GTR puppets!?

Nope, me neither!

Me neither, but now they have officially been caught red-handed giving this franchisee a generous wide berth when it comes to enforcing the franchise requirements so maybe there is hope that something will be done.
 
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redbutton

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like i said before, i think the DOO monitors safety argument is virtually dead.

THIS is the main stumbling block now.

If any inch was given about running without a OBS (if they are "unavaliable") opens up the chance for all trains to run without OBS's in the future.... and this is the aim of the DfT in the long term anyway. THis cannot be allowed to happen.

I was thinking yesterday, would allowing full DOO operation (service to still run if no OBS avaliable) between:

Three Bridges and Horsham
London Victoria and Oxted
and maybe the west coastway as far as Barnham...

..be a decent compromise.?? Based on the geography of these lines.?

There is already an agreement in place to run trains DOO on the Brighton Main Line when the guard is unavailable for any reason other than the duty going uncovered. (The train would run DOO to the point where a guard can join it.) I don't see any reason why this couldn't be expanded in scope in terms of routes, but if it were expanded to include uncovered duties it would give GTR the ability to understaff the guard/OBS rosters without having to pay an overtime bill or cancel trains.

It's not as if they don't chronically understaff the rosters already, but at least paying overtime or cancelling trains gives them a disincentive to do so.

Honestly, I agree with physics34 that this seems to be the main sticking point in the negotiations with the RMT. History has shown that if you give this TOC an inch, they'll take a mile.
 
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HH

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Is that for them to be stripped of just the Southern franchise or all three (GN and TL as well)?

There is only one franchise - TSGN. The DfT would have to do what they did with Connex in the short term.

They won't be keen on that at all, because DoR is part of DfT and therefore all the **** will fall on them. At SET they solved the problem by throwing money at it; I can't see that's possible at TSGN.
 

bb21

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Without me having to trawl back through hundreds of posts, does anyone have a complete list of Southern strike days that have already taken place so far in respect of this dispute please? If anyone can compile that list for me it would be much appreciated. Thank all.
 

Deepgreen

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Whilst there is a wide gap of views between those that are held by Don King and I, I am the first to admit that his postings are very well worded indeed and are spoken in the language of the 21st century in a most clear and concise manner.

Perhaps the RMT could do no worse than to let Don King draw up any future RMT press releases, devoid of all the usual "class war rubbish" comments, that will make matters far more readable textually.

I think you mean they could do worse, not "no worse".
 

Captain Chaos

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ASLEF are balloting for industrial action over the extension of DOO from what I have heard this evening. I'm guessing they've thoroughly checked their legal position after last time?
 
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