Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

notadriver · 24 Oct 2016

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Antman said:
Exactly, I was on the buses for years.

I was set upon by bus drivers while doing rail replacement. They challenged me to justify my overpaid train driver salary saying they had to work harder than I did and had the same responsibility.

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Deepgreen · 24 Oct 2016

notadriver said:
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I was set upon by bus drivers while doing rail replacement. They challenged me to justify my overpaid train driver salary saying they had to work harder than I did and had the same responsibility.

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Given your user name, presumably it was a short conversation!

otomous · 24 Oct 2016

notadriver said:
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I was set upon by bus drivers while doing rail replacement. They challenged me to justify my overpaid train driver salary saying they had to work harder than I did and had the same responsibility.

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What did someone say a while back - 12 coaches not 1, travelling in a more hostile environment with passing trains, live rails, steep cuttings, high viaducts, long dripping tunnels, carrying far more and responsible for far more people, going much faster and so on and so on.

Phil. · 24 Oct 2016

otomous said:
What did someone say a while back - 12 coaches not 1, travelling in a more hostile environment with passing trains, live rails, steep cuttings, high viaducts, long dripping tunnels, carrying far more and responsible for far more people, going much faster and so on and so on.

Having to steer, watch out for other road users, get distracted by passengers asking questions whilst driving, no safety back-ups during fog.........

otomous · 24 Oct 2016

Phil. said:
Having to steer, watch out for other road users, get distracted by passengers asking questions whilst driving, no safety back-ups during fog.........

Yes, but the risks and responsibilities and frankly the knowledge the average train driver requires is greater than that of the average bus driver.

wfrank · 24 Oct 2016

otomous said:
What did someone say a while back - 12 coaches not 1, travelling in a more hostile environment with passing trains, live rails, steep cuttings, high viaducts, long dripping tunnels, carrying far more and responsible for far more people, going much faster and so on and so on.

Pull the other one. Watch the number of critical judgements a minute a bus driver has to make,whether in a crowded city street,on a motorway national express or on a narrow country lane. Compare it to my brother,a train driver who often has no decisions at all to make for minutes on end,apart from a routine button press. The bus driver has to steer,sweep out the vehicle,issue fares,clean it in & out if its a coach,reconcile his takings,fuel it,get luggage in and out in torrential rain & is given no time for route learning,plus risk loosing his licence if any of his critical judgements prove wrong. No wonder Virgin had 200 applications for every new drivers job recently. If TOC drivers push it too far the government might push back very hard. £54,000 for a £35 hour week whilst being expecting to be treated like a little Lord compares very badly with even police superintendents & a bus driver on £20,000 for 42 hours.

Dave1987 · 24 Oct 2016

wfrank said:
Pull the other one. Watch the number of critical judgements a minute a bus driver has to make,whether in a crowded city street,on a motorway national express or on a narrow country lane. Compare it to my brother,a train driver who often has no decisions at all to make for minutes on end,apart from a routine button press. The bus driver has to steer,sweep out the vehicle,issue fares,clean it in & out if its a coach,reconcile his takings,fuel it,get luggage in and out in torrential rain & is given no time for route learning,plus risk loosing his licence if any of his critical judgements prove wrong. No wonder Virgin had 200 applications for every new drivers job recently. If TOC drivers push it too far the government might push back very hard. £54,000 for a £35 hour week whilst being expecting to be treated like a little Lord compares very badly with even police superintendents & a bus driver on £20,000 for 42 hours.

Wow shall I get you a step ladder to help you off your soap box? If you really want to start this argument maybe you could start a new thread and we can detail the reasons why train drivers are paid what we are. You are either trolling or don't actually understand what you are talking about. Takes over a year to train as a train driver. I believe it takes a matter of weeks to become a bus driver. I am happy to explain to you the huge amount of training a trainee train driver goes through before they are let off the leash driving alone.

wfrank · 24 Oct 2016

I believe it takes a matter of weeks to become a bus driver. I am happy to explain to you the huge amount of training a trainee train driver goes through before they are let off the leash driving alone.

When Tyne & Wear metro started on ex BR lines I read that they converted ex bus drivers into fully working metro DOO drivers in four weeks. I never heard of any accidents or errors. It's much longer now because of trade union pressure, but it is no safer.

Dave1987 · 24 Oct 2016

wfrank said:
When Tyne & Wear metro started on ex BR lines I read that they converted ex bus drivers into fully working metro DOO drivers in four weeks. I never heard of any accidents or errors. It's much longer now because of trade union pressure, but it is no safer.

You are talking about light rail there, NOT heavy rail mainline drivers. Mainline train drivers take over a year to train up fully. And it's got sod all to do with union pressure, it takes that long to get the training file completed with all the requirements of the RSSB to get you mainline train driving license.

Here is a link to the rule book for mainline train drivers. Not a small document!
http://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/rulebooks/GERM8000-traindriver Iss 2.pdf

Tetchytyke · 24 Oct 2016

wfrank said:
When Tyne & Wear metro started on ex BR lines I read that they converted ex bus drivers into fully working metro DOO drivers in four weeks. I never heard of any accidents or errors.

Pfft, people getting caught in the doors and getting dragged along the platform happens all the sodding time up here.

Nexus and DB Regio blame the passengers, naturally.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exqBIx-V-_Y

FordFocus · 24 Oct 2016

Dave1987 said:
You are talking about light rail there, NOT heavy rail mainline drivers. Mainline train drivers take over a year to train up fully. And it's got sod all to do with union pressure, it takes that long to get the training file completed with all the requirements of the RSSB to get you mainline train driving license.

Here is a link to the rule book for mainline train drivers. Not a small document!
http://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/rulebooks/GERM8000-traindriver Iss 2.pdf

The RSSB are trailing a training course which omits a few items, I think mainly on the traction side of things.

Tram systems are a big difference from the mainline. Trams can drive on sight, stop quicker where as a 120 ton 3 car multiple unit can't.

As Dave mentioned, the rule book is a hefty document. In addition to that you have to learn company instructions which may differ from the rulebook. Some places sign depots and yards that have completely different working instructions from place to place. The training time soon adds up and that's before learning routes and traction.

Antman · 24 Oct 2016

Dave1987 said:
Wow shall I get you a step ladder to help you off your soap box? If you really want to start this argument maybe you could start a new thread and we can detail the reasons why train drivers are paid what we are. You are either trolling or don't actually understand what you are talking about. Takes over a year to train as a train driver. I believe it takes a matter of weeks to become a bus driver. I am happy to explain to you the huge amount of training a trainee train driver goes through before they are let off the leash driving alone.

You could always lend him your step ladder and soapbox :oops:

!

He actually makes some very good points and isn't you accusing everyone you disagree with of trolling getting a bit tiresome now?

I think the point was about who has the more difficult/responsible job and not about the training involved etc etc?

infobleep · 24 Oct 2016

HH said:
That's pretty obvious, but so what? If it changes then everyone has to adjust to the change.

Indeed they do and there is nothing wrong of that either.

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HH said:
What is permanent, except death?

Even that isn't if you get revived. Not a good place to be health wise but it's possible.

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notadriver · 24 Oct 2016

Antman said:
You could always lend him your step ladder and soapbox!

He actually makes some very good points and isn't you accusing everyone you disagree with of trolling getting a bit tiresome now?

I think the point was about who has the more difficult/responsible job and not about the training involved etc etc?

So what's your take on it as you are a bus driver or ex bus driver ?

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Dave1987 · 24 Oct 2016

Antman said:
You could always lend him your step ladder and soapbox!

He actually makes some very good points and isn't you accusing everyone you disagree with of trolling getting a bit tiresome now?

I think the point was about who has the more difficult/responsible job and not about the training involved etc etc?

Yes yes I'm well aware that you think you know my job better than I do.....

His point was that he believes bus drivers can convert to train drivers in a matter of weeks which is complete nonsense and that he believes the level of training required is purely down to the unions and is excessive citing what happens on light rail which again is complete nonsense. I'm well aware that bus drivers have their relevant difficulties and responsibilities but that doesn't get away from the fact it is far far quicker to train as a bus driver than it is to train as a mainline train driver. If bus drivers believe they are underpaid I believe there is some substance to that argument. I don't know why there unions don't attempt to negotiate better terms for them.

How this has anything to do with a DOO thread I don't know.

Islineclear3_1 · 24 Oct 2016

What on earth as all this bus v train driver rubbish about on a Southern DOO thread !? Unless you count the buses as DOO

Mods: Can this argument go on another thread?

Antman · 24 Oct 2016

Dave1987 said:
Yes yes I'm well aware that you think you know my job better than I do.....

His point was that he believes bus drivers can convert to train drivers in a matter of weeks which is complete nonsense and that he believes the level of training required is purely down to the unions and is excessive citing what happens on light rail which again is complete nonsense. I'm well aware that bus drivers have their relevant difficulties and responsibilities but that doesn't get away from the fact it is far far quicker to train as a bus driver than it is to train as a mainline train driver. If bus drivers believe they are underpaid I believe there is some substance to that argument. I don't know why there unions don't attempt to negotiate better terms for them.

How this has anything to do with a DOO thread I don't know.

I happen to agree with him that the amount of training is excessive but I appreciate that you won't agree so probably best left at that.

Unfortunately bus drivers aren't in as strong a negotiating position as train drivers.

The subject was bought up by 'not a driver' who presumably doesn't drive anything judging by his name?

notadriver · 24 Oct 2016

Antman said:
I happen to agree with him that the amount of training is excessive but I appreciate that you won't agree so probably best left at that.

Unfortunately bus drivers aren't in as strong a negotiating position as train drivers.

The subject was bought up by 'not a driver' who presumably doesn't drive anything judging by his name?

No I don't drive anything - I just mentioned it as you brought up bus drivers in this thread some time ago Antman.

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Heartland · 24 Oct 2016

As one who has not driven a train on our railway network (well apart from the odd shed like Birkenhead MPD), it is not for me to comment on train driving, but I would like one question answered if possible. The RSSB on Driver Only Operation have updated their standards and according to their website only one for 2014 is in force and that standard does indicate blind spots might exist for rolling stock. How can any franchise operator make a statement that external cameras is totally safe?

FordFocus · 24 Oct 2016

robert7111a said:
What on earth as all this bus v train driver rubbish about on a Southern DOO thread !? Unless you count the buses as DOO

Mods: Can this argument go on another thread?

When a topic occurs on these forums about train drivers or guards eventually it goes off onto a subject about either buses or planes. Normally it's something like 'Why are train drivers paid more than bus drivers when they don't have to steer a train?'. So it doesn't come as much of a surprise for me

Now it's something to do with people not understanding the training course for a train driver and have made the schoolboy error of mixing light rail and heavy rail.

Don King · 24 Oct 2016

Heartland said:
As one who has not driven a train on our railway network (well apart from the odd shed like Birkenhead MPD), it is not for me to comment on train driving, but I would like one question answered if possible. The RSSB on Driver Only Operation have updated their standards and according to their website only one for 2014 is in force and that standard does indicate blind spots might exist for rolling stock. How can any franchise operator make a statement that external cameras is totally safe?

DOO self dispatch by CCTV is the most dangerous form of dispatch, and the bulk of the RAIB investigated PTI incidents are from self dispatch using CCTV. Other than blind spots, rain, sunlight, snow, fog, even passengers with umbrellas distort the view. It is impossible to tell from it, if someone is jabbing a door button or has something trapped in the doors. It also has a time delay. It has no proper field of vision, no way of seeing the wider platform - e.g. entrances and exists so impossible to see the late runner / stumbling drunk until too late. Even DOO mirrors at least give a view of the whole train and a large amount of the platform, and they are hardly brilliant. Not to mention the issues with the driver having no direct contact with the passengers on the platform anyway.

JamesTT · 24 Oct 2016

Is it true the union has negotiated restrictions on the number of new drivers that can be trained at once?

Don King · 24 Oct 2016

JamesTT said:
Is it true the union has negotiated restrictions on the number of new drivers that can be trained at once?

On which company? Southern. Unsure but restrictions on numbers are an issue for all companies.

There are issues to do with class sizes (sounds like school!!), availability and provision of instructors, availablity of spare traction to use, annual leave of instructors / trainers and so on, so there are practical limits on how many can be accommodated at once. Even finding suitable training rooms believe it or not can be awkward - as any of us who have had safety briefs in random places, or even been put up in hotels on courses will know.

Unions have stepped in when suggestions or attempts have been made at corner cutting, e.g. such as having two trainees with one instructor.

BestWestern · 24 Oct 2016

Arctic Troll said:
Pfft, people getting caught in the doors and getting dragged along the platform happens all the sodding time up here.

Nexus and DB Regio blame the passengers, naturally.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exqBIx-V-_Y

Eeek! What system of dispatch are they using?! I watched the first three and they all should surely have been clearly visible if the Driver was looking?

JamesTT · 24 Oct 2016

Don King said:
On which company? Southern. Unsure but restrictions on numbers are an issue for all companies.

There are issues to do with class sizes (sounds like school!!), availability and provision of instructors, availablity of spare traction to use, annual leave of instructors / trainers and so on, so there are practical limits on how many can be accommodated at once. Even finding suitable training rooms believe it or not can be awkward - as any of us who have had safety briefs in random places, or even been put up in hotels on courses will know.

Unions have stepped in when suggestions or attempts have been made at corner cutting, e.g. such as having two trainees with one instructor.

Well Southern as the thread is based on the extension of DOO on their network, just something I was told once, Im 'fact checking'

AlterEgo · 24 Oct 2016

BestWestern said:
Eeek! What system of dispatch are they using?! I watched the first three and they all should surely have been clearly visible if the Driver was looking?

I thought the very same!!

otomous · 24 Oct 2016

JamesTT said:
Is it true the union has negotiated restrictions on the number of new drivers that can be trained at once?

I don't think the union has that much sway over such matters. If they deem a trainee is being unfairly treated they might step in to help; but otherwise it's down to the needs of the business, based on forecasts for how many drivers they need, how much manpower they have in the recruitment departments, training schools, availability of instructors, managers to conduct assessments etc etc. The only factor that lengthened the training course that I saw was a general lack of resources for the whole process ie ready for assessment but no manager available; need more driving hours but no instructors free; doing traction but hard to find a unit that isn't being used, cleaned, refurbished etc. Nothing to do with unions. The training duration has already been cut massively from BR times and I've seen no evidence that unions restrict entry or are nepotistic in terms of recruitment.
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wfrank said:
Pull the other one. Watch the number of critical judgements a minute a bus driver has to make,whether in a crowded city street,on a motorway national express or on a narrow country lane. Compare it to my brother,a train driver who often has no decisions at all to make for minutes on end,apart from a routine button press. The bus driver has to steer,sweep out the vehicle,issue fares,clean it in & out if its a coach,reconcile his takings,fuel it,get luggage in and out in torrential rain & is given no time for route learning,plus risk loosing his licence if any of his critical judgements prove wrong. No wonder Virgin had 200 applications for every new drivers job recently. If TOC drivers push it too far the government might push back very hard. £54,000 for a £35 hour week whilst being expecting to be treated like a little Lord compares very badly with even police superintendents & a bus driver on £20,000 for 42 hours.

I'm not trying to imply that bus drivers have an easier time or that their skills are less worthy. I certainly couldn't do the job. But I believe that due to the scale and scope of the task of a train driver coupled with higher safety standards (and remember standards are set by the government for both modes), higher renumeration is deemed more appropriate for train drivers. And yes, some of this is due to being well represented and having a monopoly of skills. The majority of adults already possess the basic training for bus driving - a driving license. This does not mean that everyone who can drive a car can drive a bus of course. But it gives a much wider population an entry, if you like. There is no equivalent for driving a train. It is a unique experience. Train drivers don't have an easier time just because they are better paid. Train drivers shouldn't be paid less just because bus drivers are. How about we pay bus drivers more?

As for your brother only having to push buttons and not make decisions for several minutes, please can you tell me where I can find this job? That really would be easy money. It bears NO resemblance to what a train driver does.

notadriver · 24 Oct 2016

otomous said:
I don't think the union has that much sway over such matters. If they deem a trainee is being unfairly treated they might step in to help; but otherwise it's down to the needs of the business, based on forecasts for how many drivers they need, how much manpower they have in the recruitment departments, training schools, availability of instructors, managers to conduct assessments etc etc. The only factor that lengthened the training course that I saw was a general lack of resources for the whole process ie ready for assessment but no manager available; need more driving hours but no instructors free; doing traction but hard to find a unit that isn't being used, cleaned, refurbished etc. Nothing to do with unions. The training duration has already been cut massively from BR times and I've seen no evidence that unions restrict entry or are nepotistic in terms of recruitment.
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I'm not trying to imply that bus drivers have an easier time or that their skills are less worthy. I certainly couldn't do the job. But I believe that due to the scale and scope of the task of a train driver coupled with higher safety standards (and remember standards are set by the government for both modes), higher renumeration is deemed more appropriate for train drivers. And yes, some of this is due to being well represented and having a monopoly of skills. The majority of adults already possess the basic training for bus driving - a driving license. This does not mean that everyone who can drive a car can drive a bus of course. But it gives a much wider population an entry, if you like. There is no equivalent for driving a train. It is a unique experience. Train drivers don't have an easier time just because they are better paid. Train drivers shouldn't be paid less just because bus drivers are. How about we pay bus drivers more?

As for your brother only having to push buttons and not make decisions for several minutes, please can you tell me where I can find this job? That really would be easy money. It bears NO resemblance to what a train driver does.

Spot on. Excellent post. I can't believe someone has managed to reduce the task of driving a train to pushing a few buttons and not making any decisions for several minutes. So insulting.

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the sniper · 25 Oct 2016

wfrank said:
£54,000 for a £35 hour week whilst being expecting to be treated like a little Lord compares very badly with even police superintendents & a bus driver on £20,000 for 42 hours.

Well virtually every figure you've supplied in that sentence is inaccurate to some extent, but Police Superintendents start on £64,830. :roll:

ModernRailways · 25 Oct 2016

BestWestern said:
Eeek! What system of dispatch are they using?! I watched the first three and they all should surely have been clearly visible if the Driver was looking?

Platform mirrors. Some use cameras, but it's only a handful (maybe 5 out of 60 odd stations).

The first one they got a bollocking from the RAIB for. I can't find the report right now (I'll edit if I can find it). Basically drivers had been closing the doors and in a lot of cases weren't checking platforms after pushing the close door button (and I believe in some cases they weren't checking at all). They now have a system (FASSI) in the cab which reminds them to check the platform and signal amongst other things.

The majority of clips in that video would have easily been prevented had the driver checked the platform before applying power. It's not like the platforms were busy so people were near the platform edges because they could go nowhere else.

Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

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