Virgin Trains, 19(c), and not using my whole season ticket

Amy Worrall · 25 Oct 2016

In this thread, I wrote about travelling Euston-Macclesfield with a Euston-Berkswell season plus a Rugby-Macclesfield return.

Virgin have now given me an official reply to my complaint, and I do not believe their reply to be correct:

Ms Worrall,

Many thanks for your e-mail correspondence, which we received on the 13th of October.

I am sorry to learn of the problems that you encountered when travelling between Macclesfield and London Euston using a combination of tickets between Macclesfield and Rugby, and your First Class Gold Card valid between Berkswell and London.

Following several discussions with my Retail Manager, I can confirm that this combination of tickets would not be valid on the direct service between Maccelsfield and Euston. When splitting your tickets, where one is a season ticket, the combination of tickets would only be valid if the service passed through the route on the season ticket. As the direct Macclesfield to Euston service does not travel through the West Midlands, and therefore does not travel through Berkswell, your combination of tickets was not valid and the additional ticket, therefore, correctly issued.

As this additional fare has been correctly charged, I regret that we would not be able to consider any remuneration on this occasion.

Thanks for taking the time to contact us,

Josh Wright

Virgin Trains Customer Relations

The tickets I was trying to use:

Season ticket between Berkswell and London Terminals (first class, gold card, route any permitted).
An off peak return Rugby-Macclesfield

The train I try to get:

The 5pm out of Euston every Wednesday
The 7.56am out of Macclesfield every Thursday

I have not ever been charged an additional fare, but I have had two situations where the guards told me they thought I should be charged and they would let me off this time. Since I intend to keep doing this journey every week for another few months, I'm pretty scared by this response.

Any advice?

Amy

RailUK Forums

AlterEgo · 25 Oct 2016

They are wrong, as shown in the other thread. Wrong wrong wrong.

You should escalate this to a manager first. If they uphold the decision, escalate to Transport Focus. You might also like to copy in RDG (formerly ATOC).

Amy Worrall · 25 Oct 2016

I would consider getting a Nuneaton-Macclesfield anytime return instead (it's about £5 more). Then on the return journey I could use the argument that the train stops at Nuneaton, so it's nothing to do with 19(c). So far I've only ever been hassled on the return journey…
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

AlterEgo said:
They are wrong, as shown in the other thread. Wrong wrong wrong.

You should escalate this to a manager first. If they uphold the decision, escalate to Transport Focus. You might also like to copy in RDG (formerly ATOC).

Do you recommend emailing back to the person who wrote to me?

Amy

Bletchleyite · 25 Oct 2016

AlterEgo said:
They are wrong, as shown in the other thread. Wrong wrong wrong.

You should escalate this to a manager first. If they uphold the decision, escalate to Transport Focus. You might also like to copy in RDG (formerly ATOC).

They might not be wrong going forward, depending on your reading of the new condition 14. By my reading, you can only now combine tickets on a non-stop train if they *do not* overlap, i.e. the ticketed destination on one is the same as the origin on the other.

Whether ATOC meant it to say this isn't really relevant, the fact is that it does say this so a TOC is quite entitled to adhere to the letter of it only.

If this happened when the NRCoC was still in force, however, as I think it did, they are incorrect and should refund for that occasion only, as condition 19(c) had no such stipulation.

AlterEgo · 25 Oct 2016

Amy Worrall said:
I would consider getting a Nuneaton-Macclesfield anytime return instead (it's about £5 more). Then on the return journey I could use the argument that the train stops at Nuneaton, so it's nothing to do with 19(c). So far I've only ever been hassled on the return journey
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Do you recommend emailing back to the person who wrote to me?

Amy

I used to work for VTWC in their CR team and it used to be the case that the email came back from "Virgin Trains CR" or similar and not a person. You should definitely reply to the email, hitting "reply". They have a CRM system which will capture the response.

The response is called a "comeback" and is usually looked at by a manager.

I am not hopeful that the manager will overturn the decision, but you should go through this process so you then can go to Transport Focus safe in the knowledge you exhausted the TOC's own complaints system.

The problem appears to be with the "retail manager". I am somewhat surprised that this advice has been given because AFAIK the retail manager is the same as when I was there - a knowledgeable person who rarely erred.

If the person giving CR advice is wrong then this is a worry and hence my suggestion to copy in the RDG.

Amy Worrall · 25 Oct 2016

Neil Williams said:
They might not be wrong going forward, depending on your reading of the new condition 14. By my reading, you can only now combine tickets on a non-stop train if they *do not* overlap, i.e. the ticketed destination on one is the same as the origin on the other.

If this happened when the NRCoC was still in force, however, as I think it did, they are incorrect and should refund for that occasion only.

It did (although they did not charge me extra, so I don't need recourse for previous journeys). However I'm worried going forward, since I plan to keep doing this journey.

The new clause 14.2 states

If you are using a Season Ticket, daily Zonal Ticket, or another area based Ticket such as a concessionary pass, ranger or rover in conjunction with another Ticket and the last station at which one Ticket is valid and the first station that the other Ticket is valid are the same, then the train does not need to call at that station for your combination to be valid.

What does "The last station at which one ticket is valid" mean? Does it mean on this particular journey, in which case it is Rugby? Or are they talking of the destination of the ticket? That would be a very annoying change in the rules

MikeWh · 25 Oct 2016

Neil Williams said:
They might not be wrong going forward, depending on your reading of the new condition 14. By my reading, you can only now combine tickets on a non-stop train if they *do not* overlap, i.e. the ticketed destination on one is the same as the origin on the other.

Whether ATOC meant it to say this isn't really relevant, the fact is that it does say this so a TOC is quite entitled to adhere to the letter of it only.

If this happened when the NRCoC was still in force, however, as I think it did, they are incorrect and should refund for that occasion only, as condition 19(c) had no such stipulation.

As far as I can see they don't overlap. The season branches away from the WCML at Rugby where the other ticket takes over. You are also permitted to make any valid sub-journey with a season ticket.

Bletchleyite · 25 Oct 2016

MikeWh said:
As far as I can see they don't overlap. The season branches away from the WCML at Rugby where the other ticket takes over. You are also permitted to make any valid sub-journey with a season ticket.

So they don't, oops

The Condition reads thus:

14.2
If you are using a Season Ticket, daily Zonal Ticket, or another area based
Ticket such as a concessionary pass, ranger or rover in conjunction with
another Ticket and the last station at which one Ticket is valid and the first
station that the other Ticket is valid are the same, then the train
does not
need to call
at that station for your combination to be valid.

The question is is "the last station at which one Ticket is valid" Rugby or Berkswell.

Amy Worrall · 25 Oct 2016

Neil Williams said:
So they don't, oops

The question is is "the last station at which one Ticket is valid" Rugby or Berkswell.

Well, the season is also valid via Nuneaton, so that's a third possibility for "The last station it is valid" I guess.

Here's a diagram. Green lines are some valid routes from Euston to Berkswell for my season ticket. For this journey, I usually buy Rugby-Macclesfield (blue). I could buy Nuneaton-Macclesfield (red) for slightly more money, and would be happy to do so if it'd make my life easier.

Screen%20Shot%202016-10-25%20at%2015.12.32.png

As it happens, I never go to Berkswell. I get on/off at Coventry every day. I bought that season because it's the same price as a Coventry one, and marginally more flexible. But if they're changing the split rules, I might want to reconsider that!

Amy

Bletchleyite · 25 Oct 2016

Amy Worrall said:
Well, the season is also valid via Nuneaton, so that's a third possibility for "The last station it is valid" I guess.

Then the tickets *do* overlap, and Condition 14 is not met as written.

Amy Worrall · 25 Oct 2016

Neil Williams said:
Then the tickets *do* overlap, and Condition 14 is not met as written.

But would it be met if I bought a Nuneaton-Macclesfield return?

Amy

AlterEgo · 25 Oct 2016

Oh Lord, what a mess!

Amy Worrall · 25 Oct 2016

AlterEgo said:
Oh Lord, what a mess!

Indeed. Especially as they only added "via Nuneaton" as a valid route for Coventry-Euston within the last year, so a few staff still think that one's not valid.

Amy

LexyBoy · 25 Oct 2016

Neil Williams said:
Then the tickets *do* overlap, and Condition 14 is not met as written.

As MikeWh says, it depends on whether your interpretation of "the last station at which one Ticket is valid..." refers to the stations on the route taken, or the stations valid individually on each ticket.

I believe the former makes more sense and is consistent with the previous meaning. I see it as being equivalent to NRCoC 19 "so long as the tickets cover your entire journey" line - i.e. you can't have gaps in the middle!

The latter would bar perfectly reasonable uses such as this, and have strange effects if a double-back is permitted: for example a Cholsey-London season plus a Bristol-Cholsey single would not be a valid 14.2 combination as Bristol-Cholsey is permitted via Reading [line of route being Bristol-Cholsey-Reading-London].

MikeWh · 25 Oct 2016

This whole concept of last staion on one ticket = first station on next ticket is surely to explain that there can't be a gap. Any ticket that can be used for only part of it's overall validity (start/end short) can be used to make up a chunk of the journey. You can choose where to stop using one ticket and start using another as long as that place is a valid place on both tickets.

AlterEgo · 25 Oct 2016

MikeWh said:
This whole concept of last staion on one ticket = first station on next ticket is surely to explain that there can't be a gap. Any ticket that can be used for only part of it's overall validity (start/end short) can be used to make up a chunk of the journey. You can choose where to stop using one ticket and start using another as long as that place is a valid place on both tickets.

This is how I read the condition too. But I respect the position of other posters who disagree. Certainly, read literally, they give the OP a problem.

yorkie · 25 Oct 2016

Perhaps Virgin Trains would like to send their Retail Manager who gave this information to one of our fares workshops? We don't charge and we'll even give them free drinks and snacks.

MikeWh said:
As far as I can see they don't overlap. The season branches away from the WCML at Rugby where the other ticket takes over. You are also permitted to make any valid sub-journey with a season ticket.

Indeed. Clearly the season is valid at as far as Rugby; how else does the Retail Manager expect passengers to reach Berkswell?

Furthermore, as Coventry is an appropriate Routeing Point for a London to Berkswell season, and is therefore clearly valid via Nuneaton (map: TV) and so the customer has actually been paying twice for the Rugby-Nuneaton part of the journey, which was not necessary.

Sadly Virgin Trains seem to lack the required retail knowledge to run the franchise. I hope all those affected by recent incidents contact the rail regulator and the Department for Transport, to make their concerns known. It's not just a one-off; there are numerous incidents of the company attempting to deny customers their contractual rights. This has to stop as it is totally unacceptable.

Bletchleyite · 25 Oct 2016

To be fair, there is plenty of precedent for VT refusing 19(c) splits at Euston for things like people holding Euston-Bletchley seasons and buying a single to MKC. And because this occurs at the manned barrier, people can't refuse any additional payment and say "so take me to court, then" and watch VT back down when they know they are wrong.

The appallingly worded Condition 14 (I agree it's not the intention for the tickets to not be allowed to overlap provided starting/ending short/BoJ are allowed on those tickets - but what matters is what it says, not what ATOC wanted it to say but didn't actually write) really doesn't help.

Amy Worrall · 25 Oct 2016

yorkie said:
the customer has actually been paying twice for the Rugby-Nuneaton part of the journey, which was not necessary.

For the record, that's because a Rugby-Macclesfield off peak return (valid any time after 4.15am) is cheaper than a Nuneaton-Macclesfield anytime return.

The Nuneaton-Macclesfield off peak return is only valid after 9am, so I can't use that.

sheff1 · 25 Oct 2016

Amy Worrall said:
So far I've only ever been hassled on the return journey…

I can't add anything to what others have said on your main question, but I don't understand why the hassle is on the return as the train stops at Nuneaton.

The standard class ticket is very clearly valid between Macclesfield and Nuneaton, so if you are checked on that section and show the return half of the ticket there should be no issue. After Nuneaton, once you have moved to First class, you again have an unambiguously valid ticket, so if there is another check why would there be any issue ? If there is a query from the guard the straightforward explanation is that you have a different class of ticket for the two sections of the journey.

If anything, I would have expected problems going north where the train does not stop at either Rugby or Nuneaton.

boxy321 · 26 Oct 2016

I believe condition 14.2 is there specifically to cover a similar type of journey I made earlier this month:

Coventry to Warwick (not on the route from hell via Leamington).

Ticket 1: nnetwork season ticket (covers Coventry and outwards from Birmingham towards and as far as Dorridge).

Ticket 2: Single from Dorridge to Warwick.

I went from Coventry to New Street then direct from Moor Street to Warwick on a Chiltern local. This did not stop at Dorridge.

Thus, I used a season ticket to the last station it is valid for, and extended it with the single, with the train having not needed to call at that station.

The OP has done a similar thing in my mind; buying another ticket to extend the range of their season ticket. However, strictly speaking the wording of 14.2 implies that one ticket must become valid at the boundary of the range of the season ticket (Nuneaton?). Hence, if I'd bought my single from Solihull instead the first/last condition would not have been met due to the overlap.

Paul Kelly · 26 Oct 2016

I think the phrase "the last station at which one Ticket is valid and the first station that the other Ticket is valid" is meaningless unless used in the context of a specific journey. If it had been meant to say "the destination of one ticket and the origin of the the other ticket are the same", that would have been a much simpler way of putting it.

Just an idea for the case of overlapping validity - could you do something to the first ticket to forcibly invalidate it as soon as you pass through the first station in the overlapping validity area? After that only the second ticket would be valid, so you'd have satisfied the condition. You'd probably end up breaking a separate bylaw depending on what you did to the first ticket though (I'm thinking perhaps throw it in the bin, transfer it to someone else, tear it up) - and obviously it wouldn't work for a season ticket that you need to keep for the next journey...

maniacmartin · 26 Oct 2016

Indigo2 said:
I think the phrase "the last station at which one Ticket is valid and the first station that the other Ticket is valid" is meaningless unless used in the context of a specific journey. If it had been meant to say "the destination of one ticket and the origin of the the other ticket are the same", that would have been a much simpler way of putting it.

My interpretation of "the last station at which one Ticket is valid' in the new NRCoT is the last station that the ticket is valid on the journey you are undertaking, which may not necessarily be the origin/destination printed on the ticket if the permitted route of the ticket diverges from the journey midway through.

37038 · 26 Oct 2016

"The last station at which one ticket is valid" is the key point. Surely if you are within your rights travelling on a sub-journey within the bounds of your season then your are entitled to include the stations within these bounds as the "last station at which your ticket is valid".

I travel on a season between Darlington and York which entitles me to make journeys to and from Northallerton and Thirsk as well. For example I could use the season to go for a day out in Northallerton. I'd consider myself perfectly obligated to get off the train at Northallerton on the way home and pick up a return to Middlesbrough from there as a random example?

Bletchleyite · 26 Oct 2016

Morally yes, but I don't think it is worded that way.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

CyrusWuff · 26 Oct 2016

boxy321 said:
I believe condition 14.2 is there specifically to cover a similar type of journey I made earlier this month:

Coventry to Warwick (not on the route from hell via Leamington).

Ticket 1: nnetwork season ticket (covers Coventry and outwards from Birmingham towards and as far as Dorridge).

Ticket 2: Single from Dorridge to Warwick.

I went from Coventry to New Street then direct from Moor Street to Warwick on a Chiltern local. This did not stop at Dorridge.

Thus, I used a season ticket to the last station it is valid for, and extended it with the single, with the train having not needed to call at that station.

Except the nnetwork ticket is a PTE product, so wouldn't have been valid for a 19(c) split...but as the published Terms and Conditions (currently) make no reference to using them in conjunction with another ticket, perfectly valid for a 14.2 split.

In reality, I suspect that most Chiltern staff would have accepted such a combination anyway, even before the introduction of the NRCoT, rather than arguing over the minimal difference in fares.

boxy321 · 26 Oct 2016

CyrusWuff said:
Except the nnetwork ticket is a PTE product, so wouldn't have been valid for a 19(c) split...but as the published Terms and Conditions (currently) make no reference to using them in conjunction with another ticket, perfectly valid for a 14.2 split.

So which of the 2 rules are the daftest then, 14 or 19? Why did somebody specifically dislike me travelling through a station out of the zones without stopping? Was it because I could be making use of IC services at a cheaper local rate?

No idea.

Amy Worrall · 28 Oct 2016

This is all very frustrating

I'm going to run with maniacmartin's interpretation, and buy the ticket from Nuneaton in the future. It costs a little more, but nowhere near as much more as it would if I had to buy a ticket from Euston to Macclesfield. (And it's categorically valid on the way back, due to the train stopping at Nuneaton.)

If I ever get into a situation where I'm not allowed through the gateline with it, I'll decide what to do at that point. I guess buy a more expensive ticket and then pursue all means possible to try and get a refund and get clarification on the rules! (At that point I'd probably get Transport Focus involved.)

If I ever get in trouble while on the train, I'll try my best to explain my side of the story, but ultimately comply with anything they ask for, and again try to get recompense and clarification later.

Amy

Haywain · 28 Oct 2016

Amy Worrall said:
This is all very frustrating

I'm going to run with maniacmartin's interpretation, and buy the ticket from Nuneaton in the future. It costs a little more, but nowhere near as much more as it would if I had to buy a ticket from Euston to Macclesfield. (And it's categorically valid on the way back, due to the train stopping at Nuneaton.)

If I ever get into a situation where I'm not allowed through the gateline with it, I'll decide what to do at that point. I guess buy a more expensive ticket and then pursue all means possible to try and get a refund and get clarification on the rules! (At that point I'd probably get Transport Focus involved.)

If I ever get in trouble while on the train, I'll try my best to explain my side of the story, but ultimately comply with anything they ask for, and again try to get recompense and clarification later.

Amy

I don't agree with maniacmartin's interpretation, but that's not the important thing here. If you are unaware that the season ticket is valid to travel via Nuneaton (and for most people, why would they be?), then Rugby is that station - the last at which your season is valid and the first at which the other ticket is valid. Therefore I see no reason you need to be paying any more than you are now. However, Virgin Trains' response and there "understanding" of the Conditions - old or new - is very poor.

Richard_B · 28 Oct 2016

Haywain said:
I don't agree with maniacmartin's interpretation, but that's not the important thing here. If you are unaware that the season ticket is valid to travel via Nuneaton (and for most people, why would they be?), then Rugby is that station - the last at which your season is valid and the first at which the other ticket is valid. Therefore I see no reason you need to be paying any more than you are now. However, Virgin Trains' response and there "understanding" of the Conditions - old or new - is very poor.

The fact the most people don't know that the ticket has further validity doesn't make it actually valid. 14.2 is just awfully worded. To the letter of the rule it isn't valid because of the extra validity to nuneaton even though it really really should be valid. If the pricing managers read this thread maybe they can somehow get the clause altered...

New: The rugby to macclesfield ticket appears to be valid for break of journey on the outward, could this be used to argue that nuneaton is acceptable as the first station on the ticket

Virgin Trains, 19(c), and not using my whole season ticket

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