Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

Astradyne said:

Out of curiosity does the guard do this 1.25 mile run and back, before or after he has evacuated you .... as this little jaunt is going to take over 10 minutes even if extremely fit ... by which time you would be dead if he ran first, and good chance the train would have already hit you if he evacuated the passengers first

Click to expand...

The protection can be placed down before the stated one and a quarter miles if the approaching train encounters the guard before the stated distance.

This would result in the detonators going off and the emergency breaks been activated on the approaching train, a train can do an emergency stop in roughly 30 seconds.

The safest place for passangers if the train has derailed is on the train until all surrounding traffic has been stopped, the guard would also ask any competent persons on board like an off duty police officer, guard, fireman or ambulance worker to assist in assistance with passangers on the train whilst they are doing the emergency assistance.

I don't expect you or any other passenger to understand what guards have to learn on the 12 weeks course, I wondered what the point of a guard was when I travelled as a passager for many years, just a ticket/doors monkey.

Now, working in the industry, I realise just how much they have to do, I shall not carry on with this as other postees will get sick of it, all I can say is don't criticise things that you don't understand, I don't know how to do your job so I couldn't tell you wether you were needed or not, the same applies to people who don't understand the role of guards/drivers.

Andrew32 said:

I assume people must have the direct line to the local signaller in thier mobile phones so they can tell them what junction there are at, what the line speed is, wether there on the Up or Down main line etc etc?

Click to expand...

Maybe people would assume that the trains had up to date technology to fulfil this sort of functionality in the form of a black box that would report its progress. They might assume that just as we have old semaphore signalling in some places that its coverage wouldn't be universal - but that it would be a reasonable backup over most of the network.

Astradyne said:

OK the system then needs to change ... if a train unexpectedly does not exit a section within a given/normal time period (can be calculated from traffic conditions, colour of last signal) the signalman needs to contact the driver ... no response ... lock down the system.

Click to expand...

Whats a normal time period? Or it happens just as a train enters a section so its another 7 minutes until yout system thinks its been too long? How do you account for differences in train type? What about when the train is running around at reduced power? Or even driver Bloggs who had a SPAD two weeks ago and is being extra cautious? You don't want spurious emergency activation so you build in padding. So a signal jumps an aspect or goes blank. It might just be a signal fault, no point in bringing everything to a screaming halt so you'll need to build that in.

Meanwhile when something happens a express is bearing down on an uncontrolled evacuation but the system does nothing because its still waiting...

otomous said:

Well I'm not, but I'm only a driver, so I'm the one hoping on every trip that:

- I won't have a fault that I can't concentrate on sorting out because I've got punters asking me questions I can't answer

- I won't have one under and be totally unable to deal with the punters because of the state I might be in

- I won't be incapacitated by a tree, an air rifle, a stone or a heart attack, leaving a signaller to find out that there's no driver when the DSD alarm goes off and no one to contact on the train

- I won't hit a cow and lose the GSMR and have to leave the passengers alone while I do protection

- I won't be stuck in a signal or power failure between stations with no one to reassure the punters because I can't be away from the radio for long

- a smoke alarm or passcomm doesn't go off on a crowded service which I have to go and sort out personally, stranding the train in the process

- there won't be sunlight shining in the cameras, on the monitors, or people who won't stand clear from the train that I can't communicate so I have to delay the train while I do things manually on the platform

- I don't miss someone falling in the gap or hanging on the train or running for it that a guard might have had a better chance of noticing

- a fight doesn't break out that I have to try and use my judgement to do something about whilst not endangering myself or anyone else

And if they were to occasionally consult train crew about train design and the implications of no gangway, they might stop building trains without them.

I think that's it, and plenty for passengers to be concerned about there - but no one has taken the trouble to explain these possibilities to them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Doh! Don King, Dave1987, we've done it again. Walked right into it. We're feeding the ants again. Why do we never learn?

Click to expand...

That might have been funny once but it's a bit past its use by date now don't you think:roll:?

Your lack of constructive comment speaks volumes!

Antman said:

That might have been funny once but it's a bit past its use by date now don't you think:roll:?

Your lack of constructive comment speaks volumes!

Click to expand...

I'm not saying if you do or not, but can I ask how long you have worked in the rail industry?

Antman said:

Oh please don't get so melodramatic!

In the unlikely event of a serious accident the presence of a guard (or not) is likely to be the least of the problems.

Click to expand...

I disagree.

If the driver is incapacitated (and he is in the most hazardous position on the train) I would like to receive advice and guidance from a trained member of staff, and not rely on random members of the public or by phoning 999!

Astradyne said:

I would say to you if the driver can not stand the heat, he should get out of the kitchen. He is clearly not up to the job.

Click to expand...

No matter how heat-resistant the driver is, he can't physically be simultaneously out placing emergency protection on adjacent, potentially obstructed, lines (having been unable to contact the Signalman or unable to obtain an assurance that signal protection has been provided) and finding out exactly what's happened and helping passengers take the safest course of action (as opposed to panicking and evacuating onto the adjacent line with a train approaching at linespeed).

Antman said:

I couldn't have put it better and presumably in the unlikely event of an accident the guard will turn into superman?

Click to expand...

I don't need Superman. Just someone who is safety trained.

Astradyne said:

OK the system then needs to change ... if a train unexpectedly does not exit a section within a given/normal time period (can be calculated from traffic conditions, colour of last signal) the signalman needs to contact the driver ... no response ... lock down the system.

Click to expand...

Already in the signalling regulations. Seconds can be crucial in this sort of situation - the "train an unusually long time in section" regs won't be applied until at least the time normally taken to pass through the section has elapsed (we're dealing in minutes, tens of minutes in many cases) plus a small margin to allow a train struggling with low adhesion, low power, station overtime.

Andrew32 said:

I'm not saying if you do or not, but can I ask how long you have worked in the rail industry?

Click to expand...

Antman is/was a bus driver and has nothing to do with railways. But he like many other spectators know better about issues that effect the railway than the staff who work on it. For example when I arrived late into London one time I was sneered at by a bus driver who said he could have had us in on time if he was driving.

6Gman said:

I disagree.

If the driver is incapacitated (and he is in the most hazardous position on the train) I would like to receive advice and guidance from a trained member of staff, and not rely on random members of the public or by phoning 999!

Click to expand...

And on a packed 12 coach train how much help is the guard going to be able to give you? You'd be better ringing 999 anyway.

Antman said:

And on a packed 12 coach train how much help is the guard going to be able to give you? You'd be better ringing 999 anyway.

Click to expand...

The guard has the training to go outside the train, onto the track, to gain access to where they need to.. you know PTS.

TO save going round in circles... they can protect the line and aid with/ do emergency procedures to protect passengers from (further) danger.

notadriver said:

Antman is/was a bus driver and has nothing to do with railways. But he like many other spectators know better about issues that effect the railway than the staff who work on it. For example when I arrived late into London one time I was sneered at by a bus driver who said he could have had us in on time if he was driving.

Click to expand...

For somebody that (judging by your name) doesn't drive anything you seem to have an awful lot to say.

And could you explain your sentence? It makes no sense at all to me.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Fincra5 said:

The guard has the training to go outside the train, onto the track, to gain access to where they need to.. you know PTS.

TO save going round in circles... they can protect the line and aid with/ do emergency procedures to protect passengers from (further) danger.

Click to expand...

But not if they are also incapacitated.

Antman said:

And on a packed 12 coach train how much help is the guard going to be able to give you? You'd be better ringing 999 anyway.

Click to expand...

Wow you really don't understand at all do you. How exactly would dialling 999 be better?

Dave1987 said:

Wow you really don't understand at all do you. How exactly would dialling 999 be better?

Click to expand...

Oh here we go again:roll:!

What do I not understand? And is the dramatic 'wow' really necessary?

Antman said:

And on a packed 12 coach train how much help is the guard going to be able to give you? You'd be better ringing 999 anyway.

Click to expand...

And say what? Enlighten me what you say in your phone call to 999.

Antman said:

And on a packed 12 coach train how much help is the guard going to be able to give you? You'd be better ringing 999 anyway.

Click to expand...

No. Just no.

Ringing 999 at some random interval between stations (ie. wherever you can't self-evacuate) is going to result in you being able to give realistically no useful information whatsoever about your location (often the first thing that is asked), probably very little accurate information on exactly what the emergency is, and even if the call handler actually has up to date instructions based on the Rule Book and route knowledge for every conceivable location of a train accident (which I somehow doubt), you won't be able to do anything which is any better than a driver or guard can, when it comes to you making it out alive.

With all due respect to them (they do, after all, do a massively challenging job), the best a 999 call handler can do is find out some sketchy details from you and get their colleague on the other headset to dispatch BTP to "somewhere between Haywards Heath and East Croydon"... if you're lucky they might a) have a prompt telling them to and b) actually go ahead and call the right signaller, but even then possibly via someone else, such as another call handler within the NR Emergency Helpline. And goodness only knows if they know how to make an emergency call, which isn't as easy as it sounds. In that time, a member of trained crew can easily check which lines their train is obstructing, lay TCOCs, and push the hazard lights and the big red button on the GSM-R. Now, that's all very useful, waaay more so in fact, but it's assuming you've got someone able to do so. On a DOO train, you have exactly half the chances you'd have on a train with a guard. So, basically, while you're chatting to a 999 call handler, you've got roughly half the chances that someone is acting in line with rules written in blood, sweat and experience from over about 2 centuries, and doing what needs to be done to prevent you becoming another stain on the list of revisions to the rules. Happy?

The guard may not be able to help you personally at first (though in accidents it is often remarkable just how quickly they do make themselves visible to passengers). However, they will be able to act to prevent the whole train and its occupants being mulched by another one, they have to know where they are at all times and they know which specialist colleagues they need to give that information to.

Antman said:

Oh here we go again:roll:!

What do I not understand? And is the dramatic 'wow' really necessary?

Click to expand...

Because you are making a very serious subject sound like you are ordering pizzas from Dominos! Safety critical staff are trained in how to give the relevant information to signallers as quickly and concisely as possible. There is an actual set procedure in the rule book about how you relay emergency information to the signaller.

tsr said:

No. Just no.

Ringing 999 at some random interval between stations (ie. wherever you can't self-evacuate) is going to result in you being able to give realistically no useful information whatsoever about your location (often the first thing that is asked), probably very little accurate information on exactly what the emergency is, and even if the call handler actually has up to date instructions based on the Rule Book and route knowledge for every conceivable location of a train accident (which I somehow doubt), you won't be able to do anything which is any better than a driver or guard can, when it comes to you making it out alive.

With all due respect to them (they do, after all, do a massively challenging job), the best a 999 call handler can do is find out some sketchy details from you and get their colleague on the other headset to dispatch BTP to "somewhere between Haywards Heath and East Croydon"... if you're lucky they might a) have a prompt telling them to and b) actually go ahead and call the right signaller, but even then possibly via someone else, such as another call handler within the NR Emergency Helpline. And goodness only knows if they know how to make an emergency call, which isn't as easy as it sounds. In that time, a member of trained crew can easily check which lines their train is obstructing, lay TCOCs, and push the hazard lights and the big red button on the GSM-R. Now, that's all very useful, waaay more so in fact, but it's assuming you've got someone able to do so. On a DOO train, you have exactly half the chances you'd have on a train with a guard. So, basically, while you're chatting to a 999 call handler, you've got roughly half the chances that someone is acting in line with rules written in blood, sweat and experience from over about 2 centuries, and doing what needs to be done to prevent you becoming another stain on the list of revisions to the rules. Happy?

The guard may not be able to help you personally at first (though in accidents it is often remarkable just how quickly they do make themselves visible to passengers). However, they will be able to act to prevent the whole train and its occupants being mulched by another one, they have to know where they are at all times and they know which specialist colleagues they need to give that information to.

Click to expand...

Err........yes just yes!

A train comes off the track for whatever reason and ends up in a field in the dark what are passengers going to do? Fumble around in the dark looking for a member of staff or call 999?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Dave1987 said:

Because you are making a very serious subject sound like you are ordering pizzas from Dominos! Safety critical staff are trained in how to give the relevant information to signallers as quickly and concisely as possible. There is an actual set procedure in the rule book about how you relay emergency information to the signaller.

Click to expand...

I don't think I've mentioned pizzas once!

Antman said:

Err........yes just yes!

A train comes off the track for whatever reason and ends up in a field in the dark what are passengers going to do? Fumble around in the dark looking for a member of staff or call 999?

Click to expand...

They may as well call 999 (with whatever sketchy details and for whatever limited purpose as I think I have adequately demonstrated) but they don't need to go looking for a member of crew - the point is that the member of crew will be out there helping them not get minced if they are in any state to do so! And with a guard you are basically twice as likely to have someone in such a state to do so - possibly more so, given you now have an extra person who isn't in the crumple zone.

Other than "we've had a train crash, the next station was meant to be East Croydon but that's a fairly long way away" what exactly do you expect to be able to say to a 999 call handler which is of any use?

Antman said:

For somebody that (judging by your name) doesn't drive anything you seem to have an awful lot to say.

And could you explain your sentence? It makes no sense at all to me.

Click to expand...

Which sentence do you need me to explain and what does my name have to do with anything ?

Antman said:

A train comes off the track for whatever reason and ends up in a field in the dark what are passengers going to do? Fumble around in the dark looking for a member of staff or call 999?

Click to expand...

And tell them what? You can call 999 but tell them what? I had people call 999 after an incident on my train and a passenger thrust their phone at me with a 999 call handler on the other end and they were, in that situation, useless.

Astradyne said:

I regularly use a DOO train ... we dont even need an onboard ticket monkey as you so tactfully call them. OBS is just a way of not having to sack all the guards.

Up north and a little 1 or 2 coach train yes ... that might be the case ... but then on a 12 car train he has as little chance of seeing a falling passenger as the driver.

Train slamming into the stationary train. That is what signals are for. If what you are saying is correct, the railway has bigger issues than if there is a guard on the train. And down south we all have mobile phones ... sure at least one passenger could dial 911(999)

Click to expand...

Your posts are, I'm afraid, below the level at which someone informed in the issues at hand would deem a response to be worthwhile.

"That's what signals are for" in a discussion about train accidents; really?

You crack on chap, dialling bizarre numbers on your mobile. Just as happy for you not to be on my train as you are for me not to be on yours

Antman said:

And on a packed 12 coach train how much help is the guard going to be able to give you? You'd be better ringing 999 anyway.

Click to expand...

By using the PA?

And which branch of 999 do you suggest I should phone?

notadriver said:

Which sentence do you need me to explain and what does my name have to do with anything ?

Click to expand...

Ooops I missed out the word last!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

6Gman said:

By using the PA?

And which branch of 999 do you suggest I should phone?

Click to expand...

You phone 999, there aren't any branches. They will ask what service you require.

Deepgreen said:

and house fires also cause far more deaths than rail incidents.

Click to expand...

That might be true but 99.99% of the population are in a house for at least 8 hours a day whereas a much smaller percentage of the population are on a train and when they are it is for a much shorter period of time.

As a DOO driver with a branch of GTR I'd like to add my twopenneth....
I don't like DOO operation..never have done.Much sooner have my Guard back
Its safe yes...but MUCH safer with two people,safety critical trained.
As for Antmans comments (amongst other gems from other similarly enlightened others..) all I can say is I wish I could take you out with me for a week on packed commuter trains. I really think then you would see why I wish all trains still had a guard on board

Astradyne said:

Of course it is serious ... I have used DOO services for the past umpteen years ... so do you dispute anything I have stated or just trying to be a comedian.

If I am in a 10 car 171 ... and not in the same unit as the guard ... how is he going to help me in a crash?

Click to expand...

Th 171's are of course not DOO, they also travel on a line where there has been a serious train crash in living memory in which both drivers died. One of the guards died as well but thats probably because he was in the drivers cab.

The 171s travel on a route which has exceptionally poor mobile coverage, with many parts of it having no signal at all for many network operators so passengers are unable to call the emergency services.

I have been on many a 171 service where there has been an issue with the train where the guard has been able to work with the driver to fix it. I have also been on a couple of them which became stranded. The driver and guard each walked through the unit they were in to advise passengers what was happening and check all was ok, in addition to the announcements they made.

I have also been on several Class 171s that have been terminated short and on a number of occasions the passengers furore has meant that I have been grateful as a passenger we had 2 members of staff to calm the passengers down and deal with the issues.

In any event the 171s will be keeping their guards as the driver cant dispatch them, and I am pleased as I can see the benefit of the guard for roles other than opening and closing doors.

The other thing is that Southern say that it will mean trains wont be cancelled as there is no conductor, one of the reasons this happens is the way they work the staff roster which means a delay anywhere on the network impacts all the other routes, and of course there are no spare staff. In addition this area is one of the few where the income actually covers all the costs of running the service including the track, and therefore guards are affordable. However Southern passengers wont benefit from a reduction in fares, they'll just subsidise other areas even more than they already do whilst potentially having a poorer service due to no guard
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Antman said:

And on a packed 12 coach train how much help is the guard going to be able to give you? You'd be better ringing 999 anyway.

Click to expand...

I wouldn't bet on it. A friend collapsed at a station recently, just as he did so the train arrived and we were right by the guard. She insisted on calling an ambulance was called and only dispatched the train once it was clear the ticket office staff were looking after my friend who had come round but rail staff wouldnt allow him to be moved.

The ambulance eventually arrived an hour later, and when we saw the guard next day it transpired the ambulance crew had called the guard to ask where the station was. The guard replied they didnt know as the train took them there. The ambulance had actually had to stop on route to ask a passer by for directions to the station.

If the ambulances dont know where the stations are they are unlikely to know where random bits of tracks are and of course you may may not know where you are anyway, let alone have a mobile signal.

ungreat said:

As a DOO driver with a branch of GTR I'd like to add my twopenneth....
I don't like DOO operation..never have done.Much sooner have my Guard back
Its safe yes...but MUCH safer with two people,safety critical trained.
As for Antmans comments (amongst other gems from other similarly enlightened others..) all I can say is I wish I could take you out with me for a week on packed commuter trains. I really think then you would see why I wish all trains still had a guard on board

Click to expand...

Well as I've said before, I travel regularly on packed commuter trains that don't have a guard, perhaps you could enlighten as to what it is that I'm missing?

Deepgreen said:

Another text issue?! From where do you derive the idea that car crash deaths numbers are "low"? By any measure, they are hugely higher than by rail, and house fires also cause far more deaths than rail incidents.

Click to expand...

They are low per head of population.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk