I wasn't suggesting doubling throughout, only enough to allow for out of course delays and sufficient signalling to allow for an occasional charter without disruption.
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Borders Railway - Now Open
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I wasn't suggesting doubling throughout, only enough to allow for out of course delays and sufficient signalling to allow for an occasional charter without disruption.
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The monitoring group report can be read in full here.
https://campaignforbordersrail.word...on-seriously-underperforming-borders-railway/
https://campaignforbordersrail.word...on-seriously-underperforming-borders-railway/
asylumxl
Established Member
As expected, using right-time figures to mislead people. While many users on here will be aware of the difference, the general public reading on the BBC etc will probably not.
Also, the PPM target is 92.5% for Scotrail overall which is higher than the national average. It seems a tad unrealistic to me, seeing as such performance is only achieved by TOCs running on mostly self-contained networks.
although running the steam charters on a sunday was designed not to interfere with the timetabled service I can assure you that it did lead to delays and some cancellations to the hourly sunday service
Given the industry has essentially been rumbled for claiming up to 10 minutes late as 'on time' in some data (and then still only aiming for around 90%) Right Time performance has gained importance recently. The new Northern franchise makes a lot of fuss about it - and it has always been relevant from the point of view of confidence in the service and connection reliability, and the term 'Right Time Railway'. Right Time performance matters to customers regardless of the importance the industry attaches to it or what other measures it prefers.
asylumxl
Established Member
Which is a moot point really. The fact is without other TOCs figures to give context it's rather misleading.
Well they wont be going spare for at least 3 years and whether they are actually spare or the Dft has other plans for them despite supposedly not getting involved in rolling stock these days remains to be seen.
Congratulations to Alastair Dalton of the Scotsman for finding the negative in every story:
And to Humza Yousaf for sort-of taking credit for an extra 158 for two journeys on the Borders line, which may not be his own doing:
Lucky he was there to point out a spare unit Scotrail had missed.
And to Humza Yousaf for sort-of taking credit for an extra 158 for two journeys on the Borders line, which may not be his own doing:
(BBC)
Lucky he was there to point out a spare unit Scotrail had missed.
70014IronDuke
Established Member
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I could fully agree that many articles in the media show a poor understanding of rail and transport in general. It may even be that Alastair Dalton has written some such pieces in the past. (I have never noticed his name before.)
But for the life of me, why are you complaining about his handling of this piece? The second half figures for the first year's operation of the Waverley line are well down on what was expected, given the 20%+ upside surprise of the first six months. He has reported this, with the "facts" (as best anyone knows regarding ridership figures) and a list of weaknesses/failures in the line's operational history. To regular readers of this thread, I'd have thought none of these criticisms would be news.
He's got reasonable quotes to back this up.
By all means have a go at hacks (or, better, their editors who often let sub-standard stuff go out) when they get it wrong, but in this case I simply have to come to the defence of the author. Unless I've missed something (I only read his piece the once) or you can explain better?
Altnabreac
Established Member
Well personally I always thought the first 6 months figures reflected a big chunk of prople trying out the service and that the second year figures would be lower reflecting this.
But rentaquote David Spaven is trying to blame the downturn on overcrowding and lsck of double track.
And Mr Spaven having spent the first 6 months blaming Transport Planners for underestimating demand it turns out they were about right overall, albeit having got the Midlothian / Borders balance wrong. No alpologies though.
Maybe demand has fallen because every week Spaven is in the Scotsman saying how awful the line is. He certainly isn't helping get the line opened to Hawick by constantly whining about the existing line. He did a lot of good work originally but he could really do with shutting up now.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Noting what you say about the aspirational line projection to Hawick from Tweedbank, would that too be also of a single track construction?
PaulLothian
Member
There was definitely an element of this. I know several people who took visitors for days out to celebrate the opening of the new line.
There is also a set of individuals who tried it out as an alternative to driving, but realised that, if not working in central Edinburgh, journeys were no quicker and harder work!
Finally, onward bus connections still seem to be inconsistent. I had hoped to use the trains for my frequent journeys between West Lothian and Newbattle - did it once but have since gone back to catching the X95 bus from Edinburgh.
However the overwhelming negativity of the Scotsman does not reflect the positive messages about the benefits of the services that I hear from friends and colleagues in the Borders.
Altnabreac
Established Member
I would expect it to be mainly single track with one dynamic loop somewhere south of St Boswells.
That sounds sensible Altnabreac. But please, please, please, can we future proof it by building on one side of the solum, not bang down the middle? And make sure all structures are built to electrified double track dimensions?
(I'm increasingly worried that there will not be a full HSR to Scotland - largely due to an argument over who is to pay for it - meaning that Lune Gorge route will actually be capacity constrained in the 2030s, making reinstatement back to Carlisle a sensible option for abstracting freight for the WCML.)
Altnabreac
Established Member
Not really. Shawfair has the biggest discrepancy but the issue there is development being slower than expected so it's not a failure of transport planning but development phasing.
The Midlothian car parks are only 60% full but that's fine as it leaves room for growth.
The biggest design flaw is the car park at Tweedbank which turned out to be far too small. If we knew before what we know now the Tweedbank car park would have been built twice the size.
But the actual rail line design would be similar. Overall usage is about as predicted so spending another £100m on lots of double track wouldn't have a great business case.
Equally the low demand in Midlothian means running a dedicated Gorebridge service wouldn't have made sense and the fact Tweedbank and Gala are well ahead of predictions shows that the Midlothian stops don't put off Borders users.
So I'd say Transport Planners got this about right. It had a marginal business case but a shared service to Midlothian and Borders is just about justified on social grounds but needs the infrastructure costs minimised.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Can't say too much but fairly sure if one bit of HSR to Scotland is going to happen it will be north of Carlisle so Hawick - Carlisle won't be any use to add usable capacity.
Lune Gorge on the other hand would probably be the last area to be looked at. Although worth noting the worst capacity constraint is not at Lune Gorge but just north as the gradient increases over Shap...
How many (if any) Midlothian passengers have been put off by the initial severe overcrowding though?
There were a lot of reports of services being full and standing leaving Gala & Stow meaning people were struggling to get on at Gorebridge & Newtongrange etc.
Bearing in mind the buses from that area into Edinburgh originate in these places so passengers are almost certainly guaranteed a seat. The journey might be a bit longer on the bus but it would be more comfortable.
There were a lot of reports of services being full and standing leaving Gala & Stow meaning people were struggling to get on at Gorebridge & Newtongrange etc.
Bearing in mind the buses from that area into Edinburgh originate in these places so passengers are almost certainly guaranteed a seat. The journey might be a bit longer on the bus but it would be more comfortable.
Mordac
Established Member
From anecdotal evidence, the free bus pass brigade has certainly stuck to the buses. Another wonderful unintended consequence of this vote buying gimmick.
I was thinking the same. Once the overcrowding and reliability issues are addressed the numbers will hopefully improve.
Altnabreac
Established Member
Some probably but people will come back if it suits them. The comparatively cheap Lothian Buses fares compared to equivalent First Group prices in places like Livingston, South Queensferry and North Berwick (that the transport modelling will be comparing to) probably don't help either.
47271
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There's a lot of truth in this. Not quite the same area, but I know quite a few people in the Pencaitland/Ormiston area who were absolutely delighted when First pulled out and their smelly, unreliable and expensive jalopies were replaced by newer, better and cheaper provided by East Lothian.
The trains will need to be pretty sharp to compete with Lothian Buses, and I don't just mean for those on pensioner passes.
Gorebridge and Newtongrange both have 2x No29 per hour and 4x No33 per hour for most of the day. It's pretty much a turn up and go service.
There are also three X29 in the morning peak and three in the evening peak.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Yes the switch over from First Bus in East Lothian has been very well received and they are noticeably busier as well - especially the Dunbar services so that may have an effect on the numbers there as well.
Lothian Buses will be very difficult to compete with full stop but this should have been seriously considered when the forecasts were done. It's not as if Lothian Buses were previously very poor and then suddenly improved big time. They have always been one of the top half dozen or so bus operators in the U.K.
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Hagbard Celine
Member
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- 68
Does anyone take Dalton, or the Scotsman seriously anymore?
I stood (or sat on the suitcase rack) all the way from Gala this morning, as did another five people in the coach I was in. Four passengers got on at Gorebridge, seven at Newtongrange, five at Eskbank and the usual zero at Shawfair. A lot did cram on at Newcraighall and some were left at Brunstane as they couldn't get on.
There was, unusually, a ticket check at Waverley, but none on the return service this afternoon which was equally overcrowded.
This pattern of usage is in my experience typical. The service is very popular from the Borders, unpopular in Midlothian presumably due to the overcrowding but well used from Newcraighall and Brunstane possibly due to the high probability of a free trip.
I stood (or sat on the suitcase rack) all the way from Gala this morning, as did another five people in the coach I was in. Four passengers got on at Gorebridge, seven at Newtongrange, five at Eskbank and the usual zero at Shawfair. A lot did cram on at Newcraighall and some were left at Brunstane as they couldn't get on.
There was, unusually, a ticket check at Waverley, but none on the return service this afternoon which was equally overcrowded.
This pattern of usage is in my experience typical. The service is very popular from the Borders, unpopular in Midlothian presumably due to the overcrowding but well used from Newcraighall and Brunstane possibly due to the high probability of a free trip.
Dalton & The Scotsman are good for a laugh although there will no doubt be people who will stumble over some of the write ups and take it as gospel.
That's another thought actually. What has the opening of the line done to the numbers at Newcraighall and Brunstane? I'd imagine it will have been a culture shock for users of those stations as well
While there's a shortage of DMUs, yes. Once the 385s start taking over E-G duties then it might be possible - limitations of the infrastructure allowing, of course.
There have been quite a few announcement in the last week here are some
Some 4 and 3 car trains at peak times
http://www.bordersrailway.co.uk/news/extra-peak-time-seats-every-week-for-the-borders-railway/
CBR actual figure for first year
https://campaignforbordersrail.word...-attacks-borders-railway-forecasting-failure/
Here is a comparison of the first and 2nd 6 months. I think quite a lot of the change is use may be due to the novelty factor wearing off. Sorry tables don't work well here
First 6 months Second 6 months % difference
Tweedbank 183918, 153943, 16.3%
Galashiels 104953, 96713, 7.85%
Stow 24356, 23926, 1.76%
Gorebridge 39400, 35491, 9.92%
Newtongrange 50480, 46255, 8.37%
Eskbank 65672, 67449, -2.70%
Shawfair 9398, 7458, 20.64%
Brunstane/Newcraighall 11344, 10320, 9.03%
Waverley 205302, 170371, 17.01%
overall 694823, 611926, 11.93%
Some 4 and 3 car trains at peak times
http://www.bordersrailway.co.uk/news/extra-peak-time-seats-every-week-for-the-borders-railway/
CBR actual figure for first year
https://campaignforbordersrail.word...-attacks-borders-railway-forecasting-failure/
Here is a comparison of the first and 2nd 6 months. I think quite a lot of the change is use may be due to the novelty factor wearing off. Sorry tables don't work well here
First 6 months Second 6 months % difference
Tweedbank 183918, 153943, 16.3%
Galashiels 104953, 96713, 7.85%
Stow 24356, 23926, 1.76%
Gorebridge 39400, 35491, 9.92%
Newtongrange 50480, 46255, 8.37%
Eskbank 65672, 67449, -2.70%
Shawfair 9398, 7458, 20.64%
Brunstane/Newcraighall 11344, 10320, 9.03%
Waverley 205302, 170371, 17.01%
overall 694823, 611926, 11.93%
Perhaps what's needed for Brunstane and Newcraighall is the reintroduction of the shuttle service that was there before Borders opened.
Perhaps some ticket barriers might also come in handy to stop the tree trips too.
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