• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Great Western Electrification Progress

Status
Not open for further replies.
LexyBoy

LexyBoy

Established Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
4,478
Location
North of the rivers
Well, that's depressing though not surprising with the all-bimode order.

I'm surprised about Oxford though, I was vaguely aware that there are problems but won't this mean more IEPs will be required for the fasts, which could lead to problems elsewhere? I guess the proposed 4 tph Bristols could be looked at, especially as presumably with the wires being curtailed the journey time improvements will be limited.

At least Oxford will get a nice new Chiltern service. That'll be good PR for GWR - whilst Chiltern open a new route to London, GWR get so late trying to electrify that it's cancelled.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The Planner said:
I would have thought the more astute people on here would now have sussed that with Oxford gone that E-W knitting will soon go too.
Click to expand...

Odds of EWR going ahead at all?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

LNW-GW Joint

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
19,651
Location
Mold, Clwyd
MarlowDonkey said:
Didn't something like that affect Cambridge back in the late 1970s/ early 1980s? Electrification as far as Royston, but a DMU shuttle beyond that.
Click to expand...

The original GN suburban electrification (1978) was indeed only to Royston.
However the route was not the primary Cambridge route then, and it carried nothing like today's traffic.
Royston-Shepreth was done at the same time (1988) as the GE Bishops Stortford-Cambridge line, and on to King's Lynn (1992).
 
H

HowardGWR

Established Member
Joined
30 Jan 2013
Messages
4,983
I see no logic in electrifying from WB to Thingley and then announcing that this means Bath to Bristol is postponed (cancelled?). What about Thingley to Bath?

Why bother with WB to Thingley, when one could do Didcot to Oxford instead?

(Assuming I have understood what has been announced correctly).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Update:

I get it now. The juice comes in at Thingley.

:D but :(:(:(
 
Last edited:
D

daikilo

Established Member
Joined
2 Feb 2010
Messages
1,623
Presumably the use of the word defered rather than delayed means that this will create a significant change to the needs for Rolling stock such as more bi-modes. And what will be the impact on other schèmes such as remodelling of tracks/resignalling which were to have taken place at the same time as electrification works. Sounds like we are back to the bad old days where we will get what the government decides it can afford and not what we need.
 
J

jimm

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2012
Messages
5,231
LNW-GW Joint said:
Probably the worst impact is on Oxford.
The EMU commuter service will be stuck at Didcot for an indefinite time, although the IEPs will be able to run through.
Meanwhile it looks as though Newbury will get its EMUs much earlier.
DMU cascades westwards are bound to be delayed too.
Click to expand...

sprinterguy said:
So, in essence, the only Great Western inter-city services that will be able to run under the wires throughout will be those between London and Cardiff (Is Cardiff - Swansea electrification still delayed/up in the air?)? As LNW-GW points out, this will also have a big impact keeping the capacity-boosting commuter EMUs out of Oxford.

This is making the shoestring-budget ECML electrification of a generation ago look like a lavish and comprehensive programme of works by comparison.
Click to expand...

Much bigger impact on the intermediate stations between Oxford and Didcot, not Oxford.

The intermediate stations will be stuck with a Turbo shuttle between Oxford and Didcot for the foreseeable future. The odd peak fast IET may call at Radley but passengers here and at Culham and Appleford will lose direct services to a lot of places in the Thames Valley as a result of the 387s being unable to get further than Didcot.

Whereas Oxford will have at least two IET expresses on the Reading and London fast services every hour, which are the trains passengers travelling between Oxford and London actually use, plus XC offers another fast option as far as Reading. Seven extra nine-car Class 802s were ordered for GWR in July and are intended primarily for Oxford/Cotswold Line duties.

GWR looks to be aiming for an all-IET fast service between Oxford and London, so in that context, capacity-boosting commuter emus out of Oxford are neither here nor there. The semi-fasts are basically only used by local passengers at the Oxford end of their journeys - and that won't change when 387s eventually get to Oxford.

It would clearly be better if the 387s could get to Oxford sooner rather than later, both for the intermediate stations to Didcot and for those between Didcot and Reading, which will lose direct links with Oxford, but Oxford passengers will probably do okay, however long the interim phase of 'change at Didcot' lasts for the rest of the area.
 
H

hwl

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2012
Messages
7,389
LexyBoy said:
Well, that's depressing though not surprising with the all-bimode order.

I'm surprised about Oxford though, I was vaguely aware that there are problems but won't this mean more IEPs will be required for the fasts, which could lead to problems elsewhere? I guess the proposed 4 tph Bristols could be looked at, especially as presumably with the wires being curtailed the journey time improvements will be limited.

At least Oxford will get a nice new Chiltern service. That'll be good PR for GWR - whilst Chiltern open a new route to London, GWR get so late trying to electrify that it's cancelled.

Odds of EWR going ahead at all?
Click to expand...


As Oxford Electrification is now reliant on the big Oxford Station rebuild (not the current Chiltern one) which won't be finished in CP5 it is hardly surprising it has been deferred. I would be surprised if some of the numbers quoted weren't being put towards the Oxford Station rebuild.
 
M

MancMetro

Member
Joined
14 Jul 2015
Messages
39
hwl said:
As Oxford Electrification is now reliant on the big Oxford Station rebuild (not the current Chiltern one) which won't be finished in CP5 it is hardly surprising it has been deferred. I would be surprised if some of the numbers quoted weren't being put towards the Oxford Station rebuild.
Click to expand...

Yes I was thinking that. If a major station rebuild is looming, perhaps it makes sense to defer electrification.

Similarly it may make sense to wait until 4 tracking between Bristol Parkway and Bristol is finished before going ahead with electrification.
 
H

HowardGWR

Established Member
Joined
30 Jan 2013
Messages
4,983
Will there really be a performance deficit under diesel (Filton bank, Box and Dauntsey)?
 
A

ag51ruk

Member
Joined
29 Oct 2014
Messages
629
hwl said:
As Oxford Electrification is now reliant on the big Oxford Station rebuild (not the current Chiltern one) which won't be finished in CP5 it is hardly surprising it has been deferred. I would be surprised if some of the numbers quoted weren't being put towards the Oxford Station rebuild.
Click to expand...

The Oxford station rebuild hasn't been deferred, has it?

• Electrification of the line from Didcot to Oxford (RS4) will be deferred to CP6 (2019-2024). However overhead line immediately north of Didcot will be constructed to facilitate operation of the new rolling stock stabling facility there, and is due to be commissioned by December 2017. The major reconfiguration of Oxford station (the Phase 1 works) is not affected by this announcement
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
D

DY444

Member
Joined
16 Sep 2012
Messages
138
HowardGWR said:
I see no logic in electrifying from WB to Thingley and then announcing that this means Bath to Bristol is postponed (cancelled?). What about Thingley to Bath?

Why bother with WB to Thingley, when one could do Didcot to Oxford instead?

(Assuming I have understood what has been announced correctly).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Update:

I get it now. The juice comes in at Thingley.
Click to expand...

Two reasons for Thingley. Iirc there is to be a grid feeder station there and the potential twice an hour embarrassment of IEPs on diesel power struggling to match HST performance up Dauntsey Bank is avoided.

Oxford makes sense whilst they sort out the station

With all IEPs now being bi-mode then it wouldn't surprise me to see Bristol TM deferred for many years
 
E

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
24,880
Location
Nottingham
ag51ruk said:
The Oxford station rebuild hasn't been deferred, has it?
Click to expand...

Isn't the problem that nobody can quite decide what to do with Oxford? Plus, I would guess, the usual shortage of signalling resources.

In a sense Bristol is in the same boat - the station needs re-modelling and re-signalling before electrification and there's not much sign of anyone even thinking about that yet. So it looks like stop the wiring where it has got to, tie the loose ends to a convenient tree and wait until these problems are solved before going any further (though I think the mention of Thingley relates to getting far enough to tap into the new power feeder there).
 
D

DY444

Member
Joined
16 Sep 2012
Messages
138
Mollman said:
Guessing Didcot - Oxford will be done as part of the 'electric spine' (if that ever sees the light of day) or East - West Rail (ditto). Not electrifying to Bristol means that the Freightliner trains will still have to be diesel hauled.
Click to expand...

The electric spine has for all practical intents and purposes been deader than the deadest dodo for a while now.
 
D

Dave1987

On Moderation
Joined
20 Oct 2012
Messages
4,563
What a surprise! I said quite a while ago that bi-modes give the powers that be a great excuse to delay electrification schemes, and was told that wouldn't happen. Seems like it's happening already!
 
P

Phil.

Established Member
Joined
10 Oct 2015
Messages
1,323
Location
Penzance
sprinterguy said:
Comparisons between the West Coast Route Modernisation and the contemporary construction of HS1 have already proven that it is easier to deliver a major engineering project from scratch on time and within budget than it is to work within the constraints of a Victorian infrastructure to upgrade an existing long distance corridor. The progress of the GWML electrification has little to no bearing on the construction of HS2 for this reason.
Click to expand...

HS2 - if it happens - will be late and over budget.
 
rebmcr

rebmcr

Established Member
Joined
15 Nov 2011
Messages
3,849
Location
St Neots
Kieran1990 said:
Oxford to Didcot being deferred will have a greater impact than Filton Bank. This being the impact on rolling stock cascade of the class 165/166's to the Bristol area. Which will have a ripple effects on the cascades of 150s and 158s to points West and 150s that were due to move to Northern.
Click to expand...

I bet Vivarail are pleased then...!
 
D

Dave1987

On Moderation
Joined
20 Oct 2012
Messages
4,563
WatcherZero said:
Defered indefinetley is just cancelled in a less politically damaging wording.
Click to expand...

Well if one was being very cynical you could view it as the government have got their new super expensive trains for their Tory heartlands to keep them happy so cancelling/delaying/deferring whatever you want to call it isn't going to be politically damaging so it probably wasn't a difficult decision. Someone should be screaming at them to just get it done!
 
sprinterguy

sprinterguy

Established Member
Joined
4 Mar 2010
Messages
11,056
Location
Macclesfield
Phil. said:
HS2 - if it happens - will be late and over budget.
Click to expand...
That's some impressive powers of precognition you have there. You wouldn't happen to have next week's lottery numbers, too, by any chance? :p

Though as you are unable to determine whether HS2 will go ahead or not in the first place I will regard your cynicism with a good dollop of cynicism of my own.
 
Last edited:
H

HowardGWR

Established Member
Joined
30 Jan 2013
Messages
4,983
ollieb said:
It only goes to Thingley as there is a feeder station there.
Click to expand...

It's a bit the other way around. They have to go to Thingley because that is where the electric feed is, otherwise they can't electrify the Badminton route. If the feed was, say, at Badminton, they would have postponed Wootton Bassett to Thingley.

Edit Mods: There is a duplicate thread for this subject on the Infrastructure forum.
 
Last edited:
221129

221129

Established Member
Joined
21 Mar 2011
Messages
6,520
Location
Sunny Scotland
HowardGWR said:
It's a bit the other way around. They have to go to Thingley because that is where the electric feed is, otherwise they can't electrify the Badminton route. If the feed was, say, at Badminton, they would have postponed Wootton Bassett to Thingley.
Click to expand...

That's what I said... the only reason it goes to Thingley is because of the feeder there.
 
H

hwl

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2012
Messages
7,389
ag51ruk said:
The Oxford station rebuild hasn't been deferred, has it?
Click to expand...
No it is just not due start until CP6 hence deferring electrification till then makes sense.

Presumably the same with Bristol TM - it makes more sense to do the electrification when the station and signalling works have been done.
 
D

daikilo

Established Member
Joined
2 Feb 2010
Messages
1,623
TheEdge said:
Why have they left a tiny gap between Bath and Bristol. Morons!
Click to expand...

According to the BBC article, the gap includes Bath station (Thingley Junction is east of Bath). Can the bi-modes switch between mode without stopping?
 
NSEFAN

NSEFAN

Established Member
Joined
17 Jun 2007
Messages
3,504
Location
Southampton
The Thames valley farce has shown that it makes sense to delay electrification until the signalling has been upgraded. I get the impression that NR has been trying to deliver according to a political schedule rather than a realistic one.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top