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Tavistock to Bere Alston possible reopening: what infrastructure could be required and what service provision might operate?

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34104

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I emailed the Environment department of Devon County Council twice specifically asking for information on the Tavistock-Bere Alston reopening in the past few weeks but didn't receive the courtesy of a reply.There has been very little mention of the project in recent times in the local press and there also seems to have been no sort of prep work on the line recently-there was a lot of clearance work done about 3 years ago but it would appear to be left to go back to nature.Whether DCC are waiting for the outcome of the Peninsular report on the whole Northern route later in the year i don't know-maybe someone else could email them in the hope of getting a better response than that provided to me.
 

Ash Bridge

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Aren't these offices north of the old Tavistock North station, in which case they would only be an obstacle for a Tavistock - Okehampton reinstatement.

If I'm not mistaken, I seem to recall reading a couple of years ago ( possibly in a newspaper article) that DCC would be willing to relocate from their current offices in the event that the trackbed was ever required for reinstatement beyond Tavistock, as civ-eng-jim points out, the small housing estate and bridge deck remain the problems at the Tavistock end, many thanks to all for the replies so far.
 

34104

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If I'm not mistaken, I seem to recall reading a couple of years ago ( possibly in a newspaper article) that DCC would be willing to relocate from their current offices in the event that the trackbed was ever required for reinstatement beyond Tavistock, as civ-eng-jim points out, the small housing estate and bridge deck remain the problems at the Tavistock end, many thanks to all for the replies so far.

Yes,WDBC voted to support the reopening of the whole route from Okehampton to BA,which by definition means that they would be prepared to relocate their offices-seem to remember they were looking to do that anyway.There is the housing estate [whoever gave planning permission for that-being cynical, perhaps a greased palm was more appealing than an oiled,long term thinking intellect:D] at the end of the viaduct and a bungalow which straddles the formation near the broken bridge over Callington Road but compared to the works carried out on the Waverley route the obstructions are trivial.
 

Ash Bridge

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Yes,WDBC voted to support the reopening of the whole route from Okehampton to BA,which by definition means that they would be prepared to relocate their offices-seem to remember they were looking to do that anyway.There is the housing estate [whoever gave planning permission for that-being cynical, perhaps a greased palm was more appealing than an oiled,long term thinking intellect:D] at the end of the viaduct and a bungalow which straddles the formation near the broken bridge over Callington Road but compared to the works carried out on the Waverley route the obstructions are trivial.

I was sure I'd read that somewhere, and thinking about it now it was perhaps yourself that mentioned it previously, it's refreshing to hear how positive the Council are (were) about a full reinstatement, just a shame that the other major parties don't appear to have the same enthusiasm, I'll still keep my fingers crossed though..then again I'm not holding my breath!
 
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yorksrob

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If I'm not mistaken, I seem to recall reading a couple of years ago ( possibly in a newspaper article) that DCC would be willing to relocate from their current offices in the event that the trackbed was ever required for reinstatement beyond Tavistock, as civ-eng-jim points out, the small housing estate and bridge deck remain the problems at the Tavistock end, many thanks to all for the replies so far.

That's certainly good news if the case.
 

ACE1888

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The Golden opportunity to restore a decent service to Mid Devon (which is long overdue) with the rebuilding the LSWR mainline to COMPLIMENT the Dawlish route is a no brainer (as well as the age old problems of the elements at Dawlish and Teignmouth) but what are the local M.P's doing about it? Like the B.A-Tavistock relaying it is far too quiet (last year it was quoted for 2022) When will England wake up to reopenings on a sensible scale, it's needed, just get on with it
 

yorksrob

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The Golden opportunity to restore a decent service to Mid Devon (which is long overdue) with the rebuilding the LSWR mainline to COMPLIMENT the Dawlish route is a no brainer (as well as the age old problems of the elements at Dawlish and Teignmouth) but what are the local M.P's doing about it? Like the B.A-Tavistock relaying it is far too quiet (last year it was quoted for 2022) When will England wake up to reopenings on a sensible scale, it's needed, just get on with it

Yes indeed.

To be fair, the South West Peninsular Rail Task Force seems to still be supportive, however some of the South Devon MP's seemed inexplicably opposed.
 
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Yes indeed.

To be fair, the South West Peninsular Rail Task Force seems to still be supportive, however some of the South Devon MP's seemed inexplicably opposed.

South Devon MPs must be short sighted.
It would open up travel opportunities to rail travelers in South Devon.
The South Devon railway as a through line would never be abandoned.
(A new line should be planned, even if building is more than a decade + away, just in case irreparable damage at Dawlish)
Reopening the LSWR would give Devon and North Cornwall far better transport links.
A new park & ride station near Bridistowe ( A30)
Maybe an express bus running from Bodmin Parkway via Launceston etc to Okehamton for example.
Single track should be ok, except Yeoford Junction to Exeter double track.
 

Ash Bridge

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The Summer Sunday Exeter to Okehampton services seem to have been doing rather well this year going off my own experience back in early June, and also from what other people on here have experienced, it will be interesting to see the results of the passenger surveys they have been conducting in conjunction with eventually introducing a weekday service. Perhaps this gives a indication of the yet to be tapped market from a fully reopened route? and that's before including its usefulness as a diversionary route.
 

The Ham

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The Summer Sunday Exeter to Okehampton services seem to have been doing rather well this year going off my own experience back in early June, and also from what other people on here have experienced, it will be interesting to see the results of the passenger surveys they have been conducting in conjunction with eventually introducing a weekday service. Perhaps this gives a indication of the yet to be tapped market from a fully reopened route? and that's before including its usefulness as a diversionary route.

I've said before that by extending the SWT's service to Exeter to Plymouth via the Okehampton route (once fully opened) would provide a faster route (or at least only marginally different) to Plymouth from many places in the central area of the South. This includes places like Woking through to Hook (except Farnborough) , places like Portsmouth Weymouth, Bournemouth & Southampton (possibly even Brighton), Overton to Pinhoe, and the like.

No one of those places would produce significant passenger numbers but combined they are all going to add up, especially as the further east the passenger starts the more they will be paying for their ticket (with little extra cost to the TOC for them using the service east of Exeter).

Yes it might be possible (if the trains run on time) to connect with the XC service from the SWT service, however a) if you are more than a couple of minutes late (or get stuck behind anyone) that's not possible, b) XC services are fairly heavily loaded ad c) you'd be on a 159 (or their replacement, subject to what the new franchise brings) and not a Voyager (assuming the Voyager can even run)!!!

You also end up not needing much more (if any) DMU's units to run the through service over what is required to run the two shuttles (OK, some more units for extra capacity to the east of Exeter and maybe longer units between Exeter and Plymouth). All in all not a massive cost increase to the industry to run, meaning any extra income is a bonus.

As an example using SWT's offer for a single for £16 between any two stations on their network and extra 10 passengers per service could be an extra £3,200 on just one day (based on 10 passengers each way over a 10 hour period). If that is what is used over a year (assuming 313 days of travel, allowing for reduced Sunday services and engineering works) that is £1 million. Given that is people who aren't using the line to travel locally and most of the running costs of the trains are already paid for (or at least factored into the running costs of the two branch lines) then that is a significant amount of extra income.

Yes there could be less than 10 people per hour each way, but then I've only assumed a 10 hour day and the £16 off isn't always on and so the ticket costs could be a more than £16 so as to offset that loss and could even lead to a higher income than assumed above.
 

Ash Bridge

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Reading some of the recent comments about the Tavistock area on this thread you might like to take a look at some October 2016 photos of the viaduct / station area.

Click on the following link:

http://www.jhluxton.com/Railways-an...-Meldon-to-Ber/Tavistock-Station-and-Viaduct/

John

Excellent pictures John, many thanks for providing, the views from the viaduct are a tantalising taste of what passengers would have enjoyed on what must have been a most scenic journey, dare I say even rivalling the Settle & Carlisle between Tavistock and Okehampton no doubt.
 

Parallel

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The Summer Sunday Exeter to Okehampton services seem to have been doing rather well this year going off my own experience back in early June, and also from what other people on here have experienced, it will be interesting to see the results of the passenger surveys they have been conducting in conjunction with eventually introducing a weekday service. Perhaps this gives a indication of the yet to be tapped market from a fully reopened route? and that's before including its usefulness as a diversionary route.

If possible, I think they should start offering a commuter service to/from Okehampton - Exeter, and maybe one in the afternoon and in the evening, totalling four in total and see how it goes. Both times I have used the Okehampton Sunday specials in the last few years were really well loaded. One was standing room only.
 

Ash Bridge

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If possible, I think they should start offering a commuter service to/from Okehampton - Exeter, and maybe one in the afternoon and in the evening, totalling four in total and see how it goes. Both times I have used the Okehampton Sunday specials in the last few years were really well loaded. One was standing room only.

Yes, absolutely agree with that, though I suppose the main problem at the moment would be that GWR currently have an insufficient number of DMUs available, let's hope in the not too distant future this will cease to be the case.
 

HowardGWR

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Reading some of the recent comments about the Tavistock area on this thread you might like to take a look at some October 2016 photos of the viaduct / station area.

Click on the following link:

http://www.jhluxton.com/Railways-an...-Meldon-to-Ber/Tavistock-Station-and-Viaduct/

John

Good stuff, but being 'picky' just a shame you did not photo the missing bridge, the bungalow across the track and the line of social housing blocking it too.

I took these many years ago and if I can find them, I'll put them up. (If.,,,,, I didn't have a digital camera then).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Yes, absolutely agree with that, though I suppose the main problem at the moment would be that GWR currently have an insufficient number of DMUs available, let's hope in the not too distant future this will cease to be the case.

Total agreement. I think all are keen for this to happen (including DevCC).
 

D1009

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If possible, I think they should start offering a commuter service to/from Okehampton - Exeter, and maybe one in the afternoon and in the evening, totalling four in total and see how it goes. Both times I have used the Okehampton Sunday specials in the last few years were really well loaded. One was standing room only.
The interesting thing about the Sunday specials was that when first introduced they connected with a network of bus services going across Dartmoor which have gradually been reduced following reduction in subsidies. This year the heavy loadings have been people from Okehampton going into Exeter rather than the other way round. Even with the inconvenient location of the station at Okehampton, not having to put up with the traffic congestion on Alphington Road in Exeter has proved to be a selling point.
 

Ash Bridge

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The interesting thing about the Sunday specials was that when first introduced they connected with a network of bus services going across Dartmoor which have gradually been reduced following reduction in subsidies. This year the heavy loadings have been people from Okehampton going into Exeter rather than the other way round. Even with the inconvenient location of the station at Okehampton, not having to put up with the traffic congestion on Alphington Road in Exeter has proved to be a selling point.

That's a good point you make, if it's attracting local passengers over tourist traffic then it's probably fair to say that the demand will be there all year round unlike seasonal tourists/holidaymakers.
 

johnnychips

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Yes, absolutely agree with that, though I suppose the main problem at the moment would be that GWR currently have an insufficient number of DMUs available, let's hope in the not too distant future this will cease to be the case.

Converted ex-London Underground trains? Could be a good place to try them out. Of course paths into Exeter could be a problem, stabling, maintenance etc. but if there isn't much freight on the line itself? Just a thought :)

EDIT: Just had another thought though - if the service was introduced and they were not suitable, it would be a PR disaster if the new service was subsequently withdrawn!
 
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yorksrob

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Converted ex-London Underground trains? Could be a good place to try them out. Of course paths into Exeter could be a problem, stabling, maintenance etc. but if there isn't much freight on the line itself? Just a thought :)

EDIT: Just had another thought though - if the service was introduced and they were not suitable, it would be a PR disaster if the new service was subsequently withdrawn!

I suppose that in that respect a 143/144 represents 'the devil you know' at least.
 

HowardGWR

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John Luxton

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Good stuff, but being 'picky' just a shame you did not photo the missing bridge, the bungalow across the track and the line of social housing blocking it too.

I was in a bit of a rush and I didn't have as much time to explore as I would have liked.

I visit the Tavistock area quite regularly but this is the first time I have been up to the station site though I pass the missing bridge on the Gunnislake Road often. If I recall correctly it was removed around 1982.

I am next in the area in April and will fill in the gaps!

What I did notice, though I have not stopped to explore yet was a new path up onto the track bed that was created near the missing bridge onto the track bed leading to what would be the proposed new station site. This appeared about 18 months to 2 years ago.

John
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Wasn't there a suggestion a few years ago that the service from Okehampton to Exeter could be operated by the Dartmoor Railway - they have some MKII loco hauled stock which they use on the Christmas specials. The plans appeared to fade away when they had had that temporary shut down and fall out with the heritage group.

There was also a proposal for a park and ride station where the line passes under the old A30 bridge a the east end of Okehampton.

John
 
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HowardGWR

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I was in a bit of a rush and I didn't have as much time to explore as I would have liked.

I visit the Tavistock area quite regularly but this is the first time I have been up to the station site though I pass the missing bridge on the Gunnislake Road often. If I recall correctly it was removed around 1982.

I am next in the area in April and will fill in the gaps!

What I did notice, though I have not stopped to explore yet was a new path up onto the track bed that was created near the missing bridge onto the track bed leading to what would be the proposed new station site. This appeared about 18 months to 2 years ago.
John, one gap can be filled because we have Street View! I am beginning to think that I had not taken photos (can't find any) and offer this as a substitute:
http://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.5515337,-4.1460001,3a,75y,286.44h,88.58t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sYRk80Erhrt8agGQRPi5frw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

As one can see, the houses butt up to the cycle path over the viaduct and if one swings around, one sees the extent. I am pretty sure they are social housing, so i presume that WDC will be able to acquire them and arrange re-housing satisfactorily. I never read a caveat about that in all the literature I read about the proposal.
 

Cowley

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I went to a local planning meeting a couple of years ago to talk about the possibility of putting in a cycle path between Exeter and Crediton, there's a fairly dangerous stretch of road in Cowley that people have to walk along when they're walking into Exeter with no pavement.
One of the things that came up was the fact that the railway between the two was originally double track and is now single thus potentially leaving room for a cycle path on the disused side of the line, therefore for shortsighted planners a potential answer, for at least the bit of route through Cowley where there isn't really any room for it.
However (and this is a good thing) the lady from the council said that Network rail had been approached and had said that the double track formation was protected in case of future development or reopening throughout to Plymouth, this was pre the Dawlish washout.

It seems bizarre then that on another part of the route planning was granted for building on the formation.
I suppose that in terms of the overall cost of putting the route back though a few fairly cheap houses in the way wouldn't be insurmountable and if the council want Tavistock back on the railway map with potentially through services to Waterloo then hopefully they'll find a way to move those offices.

On another note the enthusiast in me would love to see a circular Exeter to Exeter regular steam (and occasionally old diesel) hauled service on Sundays taking in both Dartmoor, the Tamar, the sea wall and the Exe.
What a journey that would be!
 

HowardGWR

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It seems bizarre then that on another part of the route planning was granted for building on the formation.
I suppose that in terms of the overall cost of putting the route back though a few fairly cheap houses in the way wouldn't be insurmountable and if the council want Tavistock back on the railway map with potentially through services to Waterloo then hopefully they'll find a way to move those offices.

On another note the enthusiast in me would love to see a circular Exeter to Exeter regular steam (and occasionally old diesel) hauled service on Sundays taking in both Dartmoor, the Tamar, the sea wall and the Exe.
What a journey that would be!

Those times were another world. Believe me, it was quite possible in the late 60s that the whole shooting match beyond Exeter would have been contemplated for closure and express buses substituted to connect Plymouth and Cornwall with Exeter on that new dual A38. The whole idea that we would need railways, as opposed to tolerating some remaining commuter ones near London, was extant in many right-wing think tanks (still is, if truth were told).

Actually you could have had some interesting trips in the late 50s with Bullied Pacifics on the GW coast route and returning with a 53xx on the SR Okehampton route. The SR and GW men learned each other's route in case of blockage (cliff falls at Dawlish and deep snow drifts on the Okehampton line).
Oh yes, each route has it's weather induced failings, but do note that they don't happen at the same time - that's the point that should make both routes essential..
 
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Chester1

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Would Exeter to Crediton need to be redoubled? 2tph capacity would be sufficient. Could this be achieved by a passing loop? Its barely over 10 minutes and good signalling would be installed as part of a reopening. Crediton to Plymouth only needs capacity for 1tph for local services. If the line was needed for diversionary traffic the local services could be replaced by buses and long distance services could have all their advanced tickets moved to other days. I doubt the line would ever have regular long distance services as that would need Plymouth to Exeter redoubled to maintain a reliable services. Even in the event of diversions it would be better to terminate all eastbound services at Exeter. I cant see the business case ever stacking up to more than a 60mph single track railway with passing loops.
 

Cowley

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Those times were another world. Believe me, it was quite possible in the late 60s that the whole shooting match beyond Exeter would have been contemplated for closure and express buses substituted to connect Plymouth and Cornwall with Exeter on that new dual A38. The whole idea that we would need railways, as opposed to tolerating some remaining commuter ones near London, was extant in many right-wing think tanks (still is, if truth were told).

Actually you could have had some interesting trips in the late 50s with Bullied Pacifics on the GW coast route and returning with a 53xx on the SR Okehampton route. The SR and GW men learned each other's route in case of blockage (cliff falls at Dawlish and deep snow drifts on the Okehampton line).
Oh yes, each route has it's weather induced failings, but do note that they don't happen at the same time - that's the point that should make both routes essential..

Yes I've read about the drivers doing each route to keep the knowledge up. There's a few photos online of Bullieds on the sea wall. I'd love to have seen it, my dad did a lot of the lines when he was younger.

Maybe we should get our own parliament and start reopening lines like Scotland!
 
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Would Exeter to Crediton need to be redoubled? 2tph capacity would be sufficient. Could this be achieved by a passing loop? Its barely over 10 minutes and good signalling would be installed as part of a reopening. Crediton to Plymouth only needs capacity for 1tph for local services. If the line was needed for diversionary traffic the local services could be replaced by buses and long distance services could have all their advanced tickets moved to other days. I doubt the line would ever have regular long distance services as that would need Plymouth to Exeter redoubled to maintain a reliable services. Even in the event of diversions it would be better to terminate all eastbound services at Exeter. I cant see the business case ever stacking up to more than a 60mph single track railway with passing loops.

Single track between Exeter and Crediton would have an impact on the Barnstaple services which would have to be re timed if Okehampton reopened. When the Okehampton service was closed it enabled better timings for Barnstaple services.
Before closure, Yeoford juction was closed and 2 separate single lines ran from Crediton to Okehampton, and to Barnstaple.
I would like to see speeds up to 90mph in some sections.
I am getting the feeling its all gone back onto the back burner.
 

Ash Bridge

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Single track between Exeter and Crediton would have an impact on the Barnstaple services which would have to be re timed if Okehampton reopened. When the Okehampton service was closed it enabled better timings for Barnstaple services.
Before closure, Yeoford juction was closed and 2 separate single lines ran from Crediton to Okehampton, and to Barnstaple.
I would like to see speeds up to 90mph in some sections.
I am getting the feeling its all gone back onto the back burner.

I think up until the end of through services between Exeter and Plymouth the section through Norton Tawton and Bow was close to 90mph. the class 42/43s employed on "The Brighton" were timed for 29mins (I think) non stop from Okehampton to Exeter SD, hate to say it but sadly I think I would agree with your last comment.
 
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