RobShipway
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So what is your answer to the issue then, if everyone else's views do not have the solution?
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Croydon Tram Crash
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So what is your answer to the issue then, if everyone else's views do not have the solution?
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AlterEgo
Veteran Member
That isn't the question.
The question is "why is everyone talking about signal siting and the position of restriction boards when all indications are that the overspeed and accident was caused not by these factors but by a driver being either distracted or incapacitated?"
The discussion should be centring on how and why the driver may have been incapacitated, the potential for train/tram protection systems, and the crashworthiness of tram stock.
Signal siting and restriction boards are a moot point.
neonison
Member
General over-speeding could be addressed by scrutiny of OTDR data and steps taken firstly to assure that adequate information is in place and then action against offending drivers. This is doable now and is a low or zero-cost option.
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Prevention of over-speeding requires changes to the control system and a move away from the 'this is a tramway, it's all done by line-of-sight' dogma which permeates some contributors here and in other outlets.
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Crash-worthiness has to be a much later line of defence. The most likely crashes with trams are with other road vehicles and low-speed end-on shunts.
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Prevention of over-speeding requires changes to the control system and a move away from the 'this is a tramway, it's all done by line-of-sight' dogma which permeates some contributors here and in other outlets.
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Crash-worthiness has to be a much later line of defence. The most likely crashes with trams are with other road vehicles and low-speed end-on shunts.
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Something that stops the tram in the event of the driver not reducing speed sufficiently, like happened on the tube after the Moorgate disaster.
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Finally! Somebody gets it!
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
Indeed, and I'm reminded of the Virgin West Coast Class 90 derailment. From RAIB:
29 Virgin Trains had no specific arrangements in place to carry out practical driving assessments of class 90s when operating as light locomotives, although the general requirement for one practical driving assessment during each two year period could include light locomotive working as well as when hauling trains.
30 There were no records of any practical driving assessment having been carried out of the driver in the Bletchley accident while driving a light class 90 locomotive.
It will be interesting to see how Croydon Tramlink's driver competence assessment stands up to scrutiny also.
I think most of us got it ages ago!
bramling
Veteran Member
Indeed. The dilemma that someone unfortunately has to face is that *if* it's considered that there must be no immediate possibility of a reoccurrence then every tram system in Britain needs to be suspended immediately, until risk assessments have been carried out and/or some form of engineered solution, however primitive, is put in place.
I don't for one minute suppose that will, or should, happen - but as things stand at this moment that's the only way to *guarantee* a reoccurrence won't happen.
Exactly and I wonder if this is what is delaying the reopening of Tramlink, presumably all the necessary repair work has been done? The curve between Harrington Road and Birkbeck remains in use though.
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bramling
Veteran Member
All the warning signs in the world won't help if the driver isn't functioning correctly, for whatever reason.
I agree that prosecution and conviction could and should happen if it's found the driver behaved recklessly, for example if it is *proven* he was using his mobile phone at the time of driving the tram. From the information currently in the public domain, largely from the media unfortunately, I don't think we don't have anything near that proof. However aside from recklessness, I can't see too much mud sticking to the driver otherwise -- if the RAIB consider that urgent safety advice was necessary then it stands to reason that professionals consider the setup was unsafe in the form it as in.
Looked over the bridge this morning.. There's still a bit of work being done down there...
The overriding fear must be, what if we reopen Tramlink and the same thing happens again? Probably about as unlikely as lightening hitting the same spot twice but nobody can categorically say it won't happen.
Probably the only immediate solution, which should put minds at rest, would be to have another driver in the cab between Sandilands and Lloyd Park?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Oh right, that explains it.
Probably the only immediate solution, which should put minds at rest, would be to have another driver in the cab between Sandilands and Lloyd Park?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Oh right, that explains it.
bramling
Veteran Member
That's actually not a bad quick fix, obviously the only issue would be sourcing sufficient numbers of competent/trained staff to be able to do this and maintain the normal timetable.
RobShipway
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If you look at a previous post in this thread I have stated that as well as the speed limit signs, there needs to be something like TPWS to bring the tram to a halt if the driver cannot do so in time for the corner.
However, the corner with regards to trams being too fast for that corner have also occurred I believe even when drivers have been concentrating, hence the need for a speed limit sign 200 yards plus before the corner as well as have a TPWS or similar safety system in place.
From videos and photos that I have seen, the corner is unsafe even without the driver being distracted. If there was space enough to do it, I would have the corner rebuilt so that it is not such a tight corner for trams to go round and so that they can do a speed of about 20mph rather than having to slow down to 12mph.
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I think most of the management are also qualified drivers so it shouldn't be a problem, should only need a few if they just go from Sandilands to Lloyd Park and then cross over to join the next tram back. If they were short of drivers they could always cut a few journeys on route 4?
There are two drivers on the shuttle to and from Addington Village although I think that is only because the points have to be changed manually?
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
All over the heavy rail network there are reminders for drivers to prevent things such as missed calls- for example signs 1 mile from Elsecar to remind drivers to call there if due. Such a thing at the exit of the tunnel before the curve in question wouldn't absolutely prevent overspeeds but it would reduce the chances of drivers being on "autopilot" and failing to reduce speed in time.
Theres no room in the cabs of the trams to have a second person in there or it will be a very tight squeeze.
I think most of the readers here are smart enough to agree, and are keeping quiet since there's not much else to say without more information.
This concentrates the bulls*** posts and makes it seem to be the consensus, even when it is not.
WatcherZero
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You can have an investigation which discovers more than one thing. In this case while the boards location wont likely have been a direct contributor to the crash it is something inconsistent with safe practise that can be improved. Many investigations while attempting to ascertain the cause of an accident will discover through the course of that investigation lapses in practise or design occurring elsewhere.
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AlterEgo
Veteran Member
How do you know the drivers were attentive in those (two?) incidences? These haven't even been investigated yet nor has any cause been put forward by any reliable source.
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How would that prevent trams from taking the corner at 43.5mph, or a derailment occurring?
You obviously don't use the trams very much? There is even a 'bum perch', for want of a better description, for a second person on the right hand side and as I mentioned previously the Addington Village shuttle is carrying an extra driver at the moment.
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This is just ridiculous, how on earth is the corner unsafe? Do you know how many previous accidents there have been there? A big fat zero!
Blamethrower
Member
Interesting, so it's all down to driver discretion then
What good it will do is to make a derailment less likely should a tram enter the curve too fast. Tram derailed at 70kph, so if line speed is reduced to 50kph it is more likely that a tram would get round the curve, even it the passenger comfort level isn't optimal.
Well that's a how long is a piece of string argument, the more you slow down anything the less likely an accident becomes.
Robertj21a
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I'm fairly sure that the corner is NOT unsafe. It's how trams are driven over it that may cause concern. Trams are designed to go round sharp corners !
RobShipway
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But, if there has been more than one occasion where trams have gone road the bend at speed which in this case there has been, something should have been done about it prior to the accident happening where the speed was a lot greater than the previous times where a tram has gone round at speed.
Just because there has not been fortunately any previous accidents, does not mean that there has not been any possible likely accidents could have occurred before the accident occurred with the Croydon Tram.
In many roads whether they are dual carriageway A road, single A Roads or whatever you are often find on some of them sharp bends and if the road is say national speed limit of 60mph before the bend, then you will find 200 - 300 yards prior to the bend a new speed limit of say 40mph for any motor vehicles to go round that bend. Trams are no different in this aspect as far as I am concerned and if the corner is such that tram drivers cannot reduce the speed enough for the corners, then either the tram drivers need re - training on how to be driving their trams or the corner needs to be re - designed so that the trams can go round the corner more safely.
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Zoidberg
Established Member
That's anecdotal. I'm not aware of any evidence having been made available to substatiate the claims. Hopefully the case will be proven one way or the other during investigations.
bramling
Veteran Member
Hindsight is a wonderful thing!
This circumstances surrounding this accident certainly share a degree of similarity to the Moorgate accident, which was of course the previous very major rail accident on the LT system. At least this time hopefully the root cause won't remain a mystery forever.
We are all just speculating really. I am speculating myself here but I am guessing route knowledge is very important for driving trams as it would be with trains. I would again speculate that the tram drivers don't rely on seeing a speed limit sign to know when they have to slow down. We should be grateful that this is a relatively rare occurance, send our condolences to the victims and hope that lessons are learned to stop it happening again.
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
Nobody has suggested that and there is no evidence to substantiate it so far.
The anecdotal evidence suggests that, apart from the crash incident, there was one, or possibly two other incidences where a tram "took the corner too fast". It has not been established with certainty that that is what happened, but even if we assume this to be correct, we still don't have any evidence or suggestion that those incidences happened because of the "corner being too sharp". There are a multitude of reasons why a tram might take the corner too fast, including, as we've seen suggested, a driver being incapacitated or inattentive.
The whole point is this - the only firm evidence we have so far is that the driver in the crash incident was inattentive or incapacitated.
Stop banging on about warning signs and curve radius - they have not been shown to have any relevance.
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