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Croydon Tram Crash

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Antman

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Just because there has not been fortunately any previous accidents, does not mean that there has not been any possible likely accidents could have occurred before the accident occurred with the Croydon Tram.

No but the fact is that the corner is perfectly safe when negotiated at the correct speed and so cannot be deemed dangerous, indeed this one of the advantages of tramways over heavy rail.
 
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bramling

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Nobody has suggested that and there is no evidence to substantiate it so far.

The anecdotal evidence suggests that, apart from the crash incident, there was one, or possibly two other incidences where a tram "took the corner too fast". It has not been established with certainty that that is what happened, but even if we assume this to be correct, we still don't have any evidence or suggestion that those incidences happened because of the "corner being too sharp". There are a multitude of reasons why a tram might take the corner too fast, including, as we've seen suggested, a driver being incapacitated or inattentive.

The whole point is this - the only firm evidence we have so far is that the driver in the crash incident was inattentive or incapacitated.

Stop banging on about warning signs and curve radius - they have not been shown to have any relevance.

I don't understand why anyone could see the corner as being "too sharp". As long as it was safe for the posted speed limit then there's no issue. In a perfect world of course the curve wouldn't be there, but we don't live in a perfect world, so it's never going to be possible to always design out such curves.

Obviously, with hindsight, it's quite possible to construct a reasonable argument that the risk of overspeeding on the curve could or should have been reasonably envisaged, but unfortunately history shows that having a crystal ball would be a wonderful thing. Quite simply, it's never possible to think of everything. No matter how many layers of safety you pile onto a system, eventually someone will always find a weakpoint, somehow.
 

Robertj21a

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But, if there has been more than one occasion where trams have gone road the bend at speed which in this case there has been, something should have been done about it prior to the accident happening where the speed was a lot greater than the previous times where a tram has gone round at speed.




J.

You keep saying much the same - but the corner itself is not unsafe. Trams are designed to negotiate sharp corners, you can't then say that such a corner is unsafe.
 

RobShipway

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You keep saying much the same - but the corner itself is not unsafe. Trams are designed to negotiate sharp corners, you can't then say that such a corner is unsafe.

Not sure if they still allow it, but I would suggest that you pop to the National Tramway Museum in Crich. I know when I was there a few years ago, I was able to arrange driving of a tram without any passengers. If they still do that, I suggest you have a lesson in driving a tram.

Then you will realise, what I say about drivers needing to have their full attention when driving a tram and if there has been two previous incidents, as seem to be the case where trams went round the corner at too fast a speed you would realise that you cannot control a tram to slow down as quick as you would a car that would be going round a similar type of bend.
 

littlerock

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Saw my sister today. She said she was listening to the radio this morning -BBC or London, not sure which - and they had someone discussing the interim report on the Croydon tram accident. She thinks they were official - part of the RAIB but I am not swearing to that. Anyway she says this person said the tram is actually classified as a bus as far as specifying safety precautions needed.
 

Robertj21a

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Not sure if they still allow it, but I would suggest that you pop to the National Tramway Museum in Crich. I know when I was there a few years ago, I was able to arrange driving of a tram without any passengers. If they still do that, I suggest you have a lesson in driving a tram.

Then you will realise, what I say about drivers needing to have their full attention when driving a tram and if there has been two previous incidents, as seem to be the case where trams went round the corner at too fast a speed you would realise that you cannot control a tram to slow down as quick as you would a car that would be going round a similar type of bend.

Been there, done that. You're only proving the point that it's the tram/driver itself that is/can be the dangerous piece of the jigsaw. You keep trying to say that the corner is unsafe - it isn't.
 

Antman

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Been there, done that. You're only proving the point that it's the tram/driver itself that is/can be the dangerous piece of the jigsaw. You keep trying to say that the corner is unsafe - it isn't.

Exactly there is nothing at all unsafe about the corner, it would obviously be better if it wasn't so tight but that's all that could be done within the space confines and there are similar tight curves on many other tramways.

The only alternative would be to reroute tramlink from Lloyd Park on street via Coombe Road into Croydon, that would obviously be highly contentious with all sorts of arguments for and against but it would make the Sandllands Tunnel section redundant and remove the curves at either end, although obviously trams to and from Addiscombe would still have to negotiate the Sandilands curve. It would also be more direct and reduce journey times, it's quite ironic that the replacement bus services in operation at the moment are often quicker than the tram would be between East Croydon and Addington Village.
 

AlterEgo

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Not sure if they still allow it, but I would suggest that you pop to the National Tramway Museum in Crich. I know when I was there a few years ago, I was able to arrange driving of a tram without any passengers. If they still do that, I suggest you have a lesson in driving a tram.

Then you will realise, what I say about drivers needing to have their full attention when driving a tram and if there has been two previous incidents, as seem to be the case where trams went round the corner at too fast a speed you would realise that you cannot control a tram to slow down as quick as you would a car that would be going round a similar type of bend.

As you correctly state, drivers need to have their full attention when driving a tram. This is where the debate currently is.
 

Nicks

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I'm a regular user of that stretch of line. Whilst the idea of a second driver seems attractive (and I have seen a pilotman on a tram carried in the past to cover some engineering issue) there is the danger of concentration being lost as they will probably start chatting to each other. There's just been a case on a national rail mainline when two drivers in the cab missed a speed restriction.

Is the newer model of tram any different in operation/safety systems etc or crash worthiness - if so they could they be the only ones used on that stretch of line in the future?

Unless some form of emergency train braking system is introduced and that probably couldn't happen for months/years then I can't see any stopgap solution for driver error or incapacitation being considered safe now.
 
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Antman

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I'm a regular user of that stretch of line. Whilst the idea of a second driver seems attractive (and I have seen a pilotman on a tram carried in the past to cover some engineering issue) there is the danger of concentration being lost as they will probably start chatting to each other. There's just been a case on the mainline when two drivers in the cab missed a speed restriction.

Is the newer model of tram any different in operation/safety systems etc or crash worthiness - if so they could they be the only ones used on that stretch of line in the future?

Unless some form of emergency train braking system is introduced and that probably couldn't happen for months/years then I can't see any stopgap solution for driver error or incapacitation being considered safe now.

The second driver would only need to travel from Sandilands to Lloyd Park and vice versa so they wouldn't get much time to build up a conversation. There is often a second person in the cab anyway so I really don't think it would be a problem, that's the only 'safe' solution I can see that could be implemented immediately.
 

Nicks

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Just another thought, won't any solution slow the service/frequency down significantly so I assume time will be needed to rejig the timetable.
 

507 001

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Not sure if they still allow it, but I would suggest that you pop to the National Tramway Museum in Crich. I know when I was there a few years ago, I was able to arrange driving of a tram without any passengers. If they still do that, I suggest you have a lesson in driving a tram.

Then you will realise, what I say about drivers needing to have their full attention when driving a tram and if there has been two previous incidents, as seem to be the case where trams went round the corner at too fast a speed you would realise that you cannot control a tram to slow down as quick as you would a car that would be going round a similar type of bend.

I know what it takes to drive a tram. I do it every day, I also teach people to drive them so I dare say I know a bit more about it than you do.

Yes it does take longer for a tram to slow down than a car, that is obvious. The drivers route knowledge tells him the curve is there, it's not as if he is coming up to it completely unaware, as may be the case with a car driver.

As such, the driver should begin to slow down at a point which he knows he can safely and comfortably reduce to the new speed limit.

It doesn't matter what the speed limit prior to the curve is, nor does it matter how tight the curve is or whether there are sufficient warning boards. The curve is perfectly safe if driven appropriately. What matters is why the driver, in this case, appears to have lost concentration to a degree that a horrendous incident has occurred.
 

urpert

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I'm a regular user of that stretch of line. Whilst the idea of a second driver seems attractive (and I have seen a pilotman on a tram carried in the past to cover some engineering issue) there is the danger of concentration being lost as they will probably start chatting to each other. There's just been a case on a national rail mainline when two drivers in the cab missed a speed restriction.

Is the newer model of tram any different in operation/safety systems etc or crash worthiness - if so they could they be the only ones used on that stretch of line in the future?

Surely the curve between Harrington Rd and Birkbeck is just as sharp though?
 

Robertj21a

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I know what it takes to drive a tram. I do it every day, I also teach people to drive them so I dare say I know a bit more about it than you do.

Yes it does take longer for a tram to slow down than a car, that is obvious. The drivers route knowledge tells him the curve is there, it's not as if he is coming up to it completely unaware, as may be the case with a car driver.

As such, the driver should begin to slow down at a point which he knows he can safely and comfortably reduce to the new speed limit.

It doesn't matter what the speed limit prior to the curve is, nor does it matter how tight the curve is or whether there are sufficient warning boards. The curve is perfectly safe if driven appropriately. What matters is why the driver, in this case, appears to have lost concentration to a degree that a horrendous incident has occurred.

Thank goodness, common sense at last. Thank you !
 

Antman

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A quick Googlemaps confirms my memory - nothing like as sharp, but it does exceed 90 degrees.

Well it's certainly a bend that requires a rapid reduction in speed when approached from Birkbeck direction.
 

507 001

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But the way you said it made it out as if he was questioning you direct, when he was replying to Robertj21a.

You're still right though.

No worries, to be fair I had responded to him when he made a similar comment earlier.
 

littlerock

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So far we know the accident was caused by the driver speeding and failing to slow down but not why he failed to do so. This could range from inattention to a blackout. I do not think it insignificant it happened on a point in the track where it is possible to lose concentration - a fast section where there are no shared tracks.

Due to the dreadful consequences I do not think it acceptable to write it off as a one off attributable to the driver with nothing more to be done except feel sorry for all the victims.

We should look at ways of making driving on that section of track safer. Thus could be achieved by various means: speed limits, realignment of track, additional safeguards on the tram ( stronger windows, dead man's handles, more alarms when speed limits exceeded, ) further genersl regulations regarding safety on trams ( not being classified as buses but more tightly regulated ) even looking at possibility driver fell asleep and whether shift patterns contributed.

After such a terrible accident I do not think we can say it was all down to the driver being careless or taken ill, with nothing more to be done and then rub our hands of further action to improve safety on the route overall. The RAIB said in its interim report that trams are treated like buses for safety regulations. When was the last bus crash which left 7 people dead and 50 taken to hospital some with very serious injuries? If trams have the potential. to cause such serious injuries, they need greater regulating than buses for when something goes seriously wrong.
 
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RobShipway

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So far we know the accident was caused by the driver speeding and failing to slow down but not why he failed to do so. This could range from inattention to a blackout. I do not think it insignificant it happened on a point in the track where it is possible to lose concentration - a fast section where there are no shared tracks.

Due to the dreadful consequences I do not think it acceptable to write it off as a one off attributable to the driver with nothing more to be done except feel sorry for all the victims.

We should look at ways of making driving on that section of track safer. Thus could be achieved by various means: speed limits, realignment of track, additional safeguards on the tram ( stronger windows, dead man's handles, more alarms when speed limits exceeded, ) further genersl regulations regarding safety on trams ( not being classified as buses but more tightly regulated ) even looking at possibility driver fell asleep and whether shift patterns contributed.

After such a terrible accident I do not think we can say it was all down to the driver being careless or taken ill, with nothing more to be done and then rub our hands of further action to improve safety on the route overall. The RAIB said in its interim report that trams are treated like buses for safety regulations. When was the last bus crash which left 7 people dead and 50 taken to hospital some with very serious injuries? If trams have the potential. to cause such serious injuries, they need greater regulating than buses for when something goes seriously wrong.

I have to agree with this 100% and it is basically what I have said a few times within this thread, but there are a few that say that I am wrong on this point.

Whilst I agree that we have to wait for the RAIB final findings, it should not be the case that nothing is done by people within First that are running Croydon Tram in the meantime that could make things safer for the public to be travelling on the trams.

Regardless, he was still wrong.

I know what it takes to drive a tram. I do it every day, I also teach people to drive them so I dare say I know a bit more about it than you do.

Yes it does take longer for a tram to slow down than a car, that is obvious. The drivers route knowledge tells him the curve is there, it's not as if he is coming up to it completely unaware, as may be the case with a car driver.

As such, the driver should begin to slow down at a point which he knows he can safely and comfortably reduce to the new speed limit.

It doesn't matter what the speed limit prior to the curve is, nor does it matter how tight the curve is or whether there are sufficient warning boards. The curve is perfectly safe if driven appropriately. What matters is why the driver, in this case, appears to have lost concentration to a degree that a horrendous incident has occurred.

Let me ask this question then, if the drivers route knowledge tells him that the corner is there, then why has there been possibly previously two non fatal incidents of speeding on that bend, before the most recent fatal incident? Unless all three incidents are down to drivers blacking out, I would say that there is a need for some drivers to get a better idea of what point to be slowing down before the corner in question and as such place warning speed signs plus safety braking equipment like TPWS prior to the car to make sure that the driver is putting on the brakes of the tram in time and not just at the end of the tunnel, just prior to be going round the bend. That way you can make sure as you state. that the the curve is driven appropriately.
 
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Antman

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I have to agree with this 100% and it is basically what I have said a few times within this thread, but there are a few that say that I am wrong on this point.

Whilst I agree that we have to wait for the RAIB final findings, it should not be the case that nothing is done by people within First that are running Croydon Tram in the meantime that could make things safer for the public to be travelling on the trams.





Let me ask this question then, if the drivers route knowledge tells him that the corner is there, then why has there been possibly previously two non fatal incidents of speeding on that bend, before the most recent fatal incident? Unless all three incidents are down to drivers blacking out, I would say that there is a need for some drivers to get a better idea of what point to be slowing down before the corner in question and as such place warning speed signs plus safety braking equipment like TPWS prior to the car to make sure that the driver is putting on the brakes of the tram in time and not just at the end of the tunnel, just prior to be going round the bend. That way you can make sure as you state. that the the curve is driven appropriately.

This all conjecture, you're not saying anything of any substance and that is why people are disagreeing with you. Some sort of TPWS would be the long term solution but it's obviously not something that can be installed immediately.
 

Robertj21a

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I have to agree with this 100% and it is basically what I have said a few times within this thread, but there are a few that say that I am wrong on this point.

Whilst I agree that we have to wait for the RAIB final findings, it should not be the case that nothing is done by people within First that are running Croydon Tram in the meantime that could make things safer for the public to be travelling on the trams.





Let me ask this question then, if the drivers route knowledge tells him that the corner is there, then why has there been possibly previously two non fatal incidents of speeding on that bend, before the most recent fatal incident? Unless all three incidents are down to drivers blacking out, I would say that there is a need for some drivers to get a better idea of what point to be slowing down before the corner in question and as such place warning speed signs plus safety braking equipment like TPWS prior to the car to make sure that the driver is putting on the brakes of the tram in time and not just at the end of the tunnel, just prior to be going round the bend. That way you can make sure as you state. that the the curve is driven appropriately.

I know this is a discussion group, and there's been some good points raised on here already, but we're in danger of simply going round in circles. We simply don't know why the tram was speeding, although there are a number of possibilities. The investigating authorities, and First Group (and, probably, the other Tramlink drivers) will be in possession of key facts that we won't hear about for some time yet.
To my mind, all we're doing is coming up with the entire range of possible big/small/cheap/costly solutions - without us even knowing what was the root cause of the problem, Nobody on here will know the answer as to how to ensure this terrible accident can't be repeated - as we don't have all the facts.
 

RobShipway

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This all conjecture, you're not saying anything of any substance and that is why people are disagreeing with you. Some sort of TPWS would be the long term solution but it's obviously not something that can be installed immediately.

I agree it certainly is conjecture, but if the corner is safe as everyone says that it is, then your previous comment below is also conjecture:

Well it's certainly a bend that requires a rapid reduction in speed when approached from Birkbeck direction.

I have to agree with what Robertj21a has said 100% as all I am doing is trying to make good points, not resolve any issues:
I know this is a discussion group, and there's been some good points raised on here already, but we're in danger of simply going round in circles. We simply don't know why the tram was speeding, although there are a number of possibilities. The investigating authorities, and First Group (and, probably, the other Tramlink drivers) will be in possession of key facts that we won't hear about for some time yet.
To my mind, all we're doing is coming up with the entire range of possible big/small/cheap/costly solutions - without us even knowing what was the root cause of the problem, Nobody on here will know the answer as to how to ensure this terrible accident can't be repeated - as we don't have all the facts.
 
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Antman

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I agree it certainly is conjecture, but if the corner is safe as everyone says that it is, then your previous comment below is also conjecture:



I have to agree with what Robertj21a has said 100% as all I am doing is trying to make good points, not resolve any issues:

In what way is my comment conjecture? The Harrington Road curve does require a considerable reduction in speed when approached from Birkbeck.
 

RobShipway

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In what way is my comment conjecture? The Harrington Road curve does require a considerable reduction in speed when approached from Birkbeck.

Because it is a comment that is formed of an opinion or supposition about something on the basis of incomplete information.

Without knowing the route knowledge that has been given to the tram drivers for that route, you are stating that a severe reduction of speed is necessary to round the curve when approaching from Birkbeck.
 

edwin_m

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Without knowing the route knowledge that has been given to the tram drivers for that route, you are stating that a severe reduction of speed is necessary to round the curve when approaching from Birkbeck.

That is surely obvious to anyone who has ridden the tram on that section or even just looked at the speed signs. I can't be bothered to check back where this particular sub-discussion came from but it seems particularly pointless.
 

Antman

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Because it is a comment that is formed of an opinion or supposition about something on the basis of incomplete information.

Without knowing the route knowledge that has been given to the tram drivers for that route, you are stating that a severe reduction of speed is necessary to round the curve when approaching from Birkbeck.

What on earth are you talking about?

Unless you can post something sensible I shall ignore your postings.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
That is surely obvious to anyone who has ridden the tram on that section or even just looked at the speed signs. I can't be bothered to check back where this particular sub-discussion came from but it seems particularly pointless.

Thank you, I couldn't have put it better;)!
 

AlterEgo

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Because it is a comment that is formed of an opinion or supposition about something on the basis of incomplete information.

Without knowing the route knowledge that has been given to the tram drivers for that route, you are stating that a severe reduction of speed is necessary to round the curve when approaching from Birkbeck.

I'm sure it looks like people are digging you out on this but I'm afraid your whole approach to the crash incident is wrong, and based on a lot of conjecture, and not much evidence.

It's like you're looking through a magnifying glass at a blank piece of paper. There is nothing there for you to look at, so put the magnifier away.

We really ought to return this discussion to the narrow scope provided by the very short interim RAIB report published this week.
 

MarlowDonkey

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When was the last bus crash which left 7 people dead and 50 taken to hospital some with very serious injuries?

No fatalities, but the Croydon crash reminded me a little of this coach crash.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-15601844
...The double-decker coach carrying 32 passengers had been travelling from London to Oxford on Saturday 11 December.
It left the road shortly before 23:00 GMT, crashed through a barrier and rolled on its side down an embankment.
The coach had been due to leave the motorway at junction 8 for Oxford but junction 7 had a much sharper bend.
The court heard that Mr Woodward had not been breaking the speed limit but had left the motorway at the wrong junction...
The driver mistook the exit at Junction 7 for Junction 8 and took a corner a excessive speed with the result that the coach overturned. Being a coach, there were seat belts in use which appear to have saved the passengers from a worse fate.
 
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littlerock

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Just been looking at the official guidance on tramways http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0018/2637/rspg-2g-trmwys.pdf

There is a good deal of useful and interesting information including advice on signs with location and size recommendations AND a recommendation for a "dead man's handle" in the driver's cab.

It also says there should be a "black box" type data recording device for retrieving and downloading pertinen data in the event of an accident. Do we know what data this contains for the Croydon tram?

There is a focus throughout on line of sight and the assumption is pretty much made that this is always available plus there is a lot of detail on the possible interaction between tram tacks, other road users and pedestrians. And on keeping pedestrians away from areas where a tram is separated from the rest of the traffic flow.

What I could not find, but am happy to be corrected, were any specific recommendations on what precautions were needed to avoid accidents in areas where a tram is unsighted, ie coming up suddenly to a sharp bend or corner beyond which line of sight is not available in a location where it is isolated from other traffic and pedestrians ,(as at Sandilands). And also where this occurs before or after a tunnel . There seemed a tacit assumption that line of sight is always available on a tram.
 
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