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Great Western Electrification Progress

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coppercapped

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Well all I have ever heard you say on these forums is absolute praise for bi-modes. So far from merely "accepting them as a reasonable compromise" you are seemingly unable to see any downsides! I've also not heard you say this delay/deferral/cancellation is the utter catastrophe that it is, probably because of your love of the bi-mode concept. Bi-modes is a huge part of the process that has resulted in the absolute catastrophe that is this countries electrification program, because as I have said before repeatedly the government can get away with it because of bi-modes! Without bi-modes they would need to get it done. NR are starting to get their act together now but the rest of the work has been delayed indefinitely, because they don't need to complete it.

Please show me a post where you have done anything but praise the Hitachi bi-modes for GWML, "accept bi-modes as a realistic compromise" yeah right!!!

The strident tone you have adopted in your posts about the effect that the bi-mode trains have had on the electrification of the GW and the prospects for electrification of other routes does not contribute to an informed discussion. An examination of the sequence of events leads to a very different conclusion.

H. L. Mencken’s remark “For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong” is as true now as it was when he wrote it. I don’t expect to persuade you to change your standpoint as your views appear very entrenched - but I hope to make it clear to others that it is based on a false premise.

The delays that have occurred in the GW modernisation scheme have many causes - in fact until last year there was no overarching modernisation programme at all, just a series of programmes that happened to be running roughly in parallel on the same route. Over the years there have been several reports on events affecting the GW. The National Audit Office has produced two, one in July 2014 on the procurement of the Thameslink and IEP trains and one this month on modernising the GW. The Public Accounts Committee also issued a report on procuring new trains in November 2014. 11 years ago the ORR reported a signalling review covering the next five or so years, but included hints further in the future. There have also been other reports, such as the Shaw report, and other papers. Even if one disagrees with the conclusions of any or all of the individual documents, the facts reported in them are accurate.

The programmes affecting the Great Western routes were:

  • HST replacement / IEP
  • Reading area rebuild
  • Crossrail
  • Electrification
  • Resignalling the route - firstly with ac immune equipment and then with an ERTMS overlay.

There was a complete failure of business direction on the part of the DfT and to a lesser extent, Network Rail and big failures in Network Rail's management since this whole sorry business started in 2007. The Regulator, the ORR, was also out of its depth.

It seemed to occur to nobody - at least publicly - that all these separate programmes in many cases needed access to the same bit of route in order to carry out the work needed. The only organisation which could schedule such infrastructure work was Network Rail but in, for example, the stretch out to Maidenhead the Crossrail work packages were fixed by Act of Parliament. At the same time the overhead had to be designed for, and in some cases updated and strengthened for, increased use by the IEPs and electric outer-suburban trains. The IEP schedule had been fixed by the DfT.

Agility Trains were contracted to build or reconstruct 4 maintenance depots with their connections to the main lines and modify several more. All these needed track and signalling work.

Network Rail did not have the authority to re-schedule much of this work - the only parts where it had a free hand in was the electrification work west of Maidenhead. Even here there were uncertainties as to the scope of the works needed. A recipe for disaster.

This is not to say that Network Rail is blameless - by no means. It could, and should, have done its costings better - but that would have taken more time - and it seriously underestimated the quantity of work needed.

Some parts worked well - the Reading area was planned sufficiently in advance of the other work that re-signalling and the rebuild could be done without affecting other areas too significantly. It also helped that it was let as a package and project managed by Bechtel - with a project manager who ate six inch nails for breakfast. It came in a year ahead of the originally proposed date and £3 million under budget. The Box Tunnel work and the wiring of the Severn Tunnel also met their schedules and the re-planned train services worked pretty well.

The argument that you make - that the bi-modes (IEPs and similar) are the reason for accepting the delay in completing the work - is very wide of the mark. The major underlying cause is the shortage of skilled signal engineers in all areas - design, installation and commissioning. Look no further that the phase out of the Swindon Panel Box - it was finally de-commissioned well over a year late. The reasons for these shortages lie 15 and more years back, when Railtrack / Network Rail decided to make-do-and-mend much signalling rather than buy new. As a result the signalling contractors downsized.

It’s no good crying over spilt milk - but the bi-modes enable the electrification that will be in place in the next 18 months or so to be used. The rest of the currently planned GW work will be finished - but the resignalling and track alterations at Oxford and Bristol have to come first.

Whether electrification will be extended, or other routes electrified, has little to do with the presence of bi-modes, but everything to do with the costs of electrification and the costs and timescales of all the associated work needed.
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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It’s no good crying over spilt milk - but the bi-modes enable the electrification that will be in place in the next 18 months or so to be used. The rest of the currently planned GW work will be finished - but the resignalling and track alterations at Oxford and Bristol have to come first.

Whether electrification will be extended, or other routes electrified, has little to do with the presence of bi-modes, but everything to do with the costs of electrification and the costs and timescales of all the associated work needed.

:)
The electrification issues indeed mask the other elephants in the room - resignalling, ROC-migration and ETCS (digital railway in NR-speak).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The Turnback, which is being financed by Crossrail, is only cleared for class 345's. If GWR want to use it they will have to come to a financial arrangement with Crossrail and the turnback will need to be assessed for suitability for 387's. Same would apply to any other classes of rolling stock.

Crossrail won't need it till 2019, by which time GWR won't need it.
Network Rail doesn't build infrastructure for the exclusive use of one operator.
Clearance should be a tick-box affair.
 

Tio Terry

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:)
The electrification issues indeed mask the other elephants in the room - resignalling, ROC-migration and ETCS (digital railway in NR-speak).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Crossrail won't need it till 2019, by which time GWR won't need it.
Network Rail doesn't build infrastructure for the exclusive use of one operator.
Clearance should be a tick-box affair.

Network Rail is not building the turnback, Crossrail is, they are financing it. The risk assessments and GE/RT 8270 Compatibility Statement - required to bring it in to use - will only cover 345's, if anybody else wants to use it, assuming Crossrail agree, will need to carry out their own compatibility assessment. There are issues with TRTS facilities for anything other than 345's to consider. It is most certainly not a tick box affair.

At the moment it is quite likely to be tested over Christmas then signed out of use and route barred to prevent it's use.
 
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CdBrux

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Thanks to coppercapped for a very clear explanation that has helped clarify even more the issues around the overall 'project' for this layman.
 

The Planner

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Network Rail is not building the turnback, Crossrail is, they are financing it. The risk assessments and GE/RT 8270 Compatibility Statement - required to bring it in to use - will only cover 345's, if anybody else wants to use it, assuming Crossrail agree, will need to carry out their own compatibility assessment. There are issues with TRTS facilities for anything other than 345's to consider. It is most certainly not a tick box affair.

Who is going to own and maintain the turnback? if its NR then Crossrail would likely struggle to stop anyone else using it if it can be proven to work.
 

Tio Terry

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Who is going to own and maintain the turnback? if its NR then Crossrail would likely struggle to stop anyone else using it if it can be proven to work.

Crossrail own it, they have financed it. If anyone else wants to use it they will have to come to an agreement with them. Same applies to the Train Care depot being built at Maidenhead, that is financed by Crossrail and they wont allow anyone else to use it without their agreement - which means paying!

Turnback facilities have been provided - at Crossrail's expense - at the platforms at Maidenhead for other TOC's trains. The turnback is theirs.
 

coppercapped

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Are you confident that the electrification will actually be finished?

It depends what you mean by 'finished'. :)

If the costs don't rise any further - then yes, the currently planned extent of the electrification will be completed. By 'currently planned' I mean to Newbury, Oxford, Bristol and Cardiff. The Swansea extension is unlikely to be economic for the one train per hour in each direction (to and from Paddington) that is currently anticipated and all bets are off at the moment for the Cardiff Valleys.

I can't predict the year, but will certainly be before the end of the next Control Period.

If that's not a hostage to fortune...!
 

D1009

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It depends what you mean by 'finished'. :)

If the costs don't rise any further - then yes, the currently planned extent of the electrification will be completed. By 'currently planned' I mean to Newbury, Oxford, Bristol and Cardiff. The Swansea extension is unlikely to be economic for the one train per hour in each direction (to and from Paddington) that is currently anticipated and all bets are off at the moment for the Cardiff Valleys.

I can't predict the year, but will certainly be before the end of the next Control Period.

If that's not a hostage to fortune...!
Yes, Selby to Hull has been ruled out, and I can't see Swansea has a better business case, but with Welsh politics, who knows?
 

infoman

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If you have access to BBC west,BBC 1 11:00am till 12:15pm,the local section will feature an item about the cancellation of the Bristol area electrification.
 

1179_Clee2

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Crossrail own it, they have financed it. If anyone else wants to use it they will have to come to an agreement with them. Same applies to the Train Care depot being built at Maidenhead, that is financed by Crossrail and they wont allow anyone else to use it without their agreement - which means paying!

Turnback facilities have been provided - at Crossrail's expense - at the platforms at Maidenhead for other TOC's trains. The turnback is theirs.

So ALL GWML trains WILL have to terminate at Maidenhead then?
Heathrow airport paid for the electrification to Heathrow airport junction and Crossrail have paid for the electrification to Maidenhead so GWR cannot use ANY of it because it belongs to somebody else.
Network Rail owns it and runs it and WILL allow ANYBODY to use it if they pay access charges.
 
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Envoy

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I presume you mean ‘Sunday Politics’ on 20 November 2016?

It can be viewed UK wide on Freesat 965.
 

Envoy

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It depends what you mean by 'finished'. :)

If the costs don't rise any further - then yes, the currently planned extent of the electrification will be completed. By 'currently planned' I mean to Newbury, Oxford, Bristol and Cardiff. The Swansea extension is unlikely to be economic for the one train per hour in each direction (to and from Paddington) that is currently anticipated and all bets are off at the moment for the Cardiff Valleys.

I can't predict the year, but will certainly be before the end of the next Control Period.

If that's not a hostage to fortune...!

It would not be just one train per hour between Cardiff and Swansea (London services) able to make use of electric traction. Stopping services also connect Swansea with Cardiff and these could be extended to Bristol Temple Meads to replace the present DMU’s that are used on the Cardiff to Taunton service. (Swansea > Cardiff > Newport > Bristol forms a highly populated economic area). In addition, the relatively short valley line from Bridgend to Maesteg could be electrified and DMU’s used on this service could be switched for EMU’s. The Maesteg trains currently join the GWML at Bridgend and then call at Pencoed, Llanharan and Pontyclun before reaching Cardiff. They then normally proceed to/from Cheltenham. I would have thought that a logical eastward leg for these services would be to Ebbw Vale with trains every 30 minutes - Maesteg to Ebbw Vale. (These trains are very overcrowded at the moment).

These additional stopping services on the south Wales mainline between Cardiff and Swansea surely make electrification justified. If the new signalling is complete, it is a pity that they don’t simply push on from Cardiff to Swansea with the wiring. (Might even have avoided the need to purchase some of the more expensive bi-mode Hitachi Intercity Express trains and stuck with the original order )?
 

LNW-GW Joint

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It's a curious thing, but the DfT has never shown any interest in a Swansea-Bristol EMU service.
It begins to figure in the consultation for the new Wales & Borders franchise, but it is a long way from being contracted.
Among other things it will affect the GWR franchise monopoly of services through the Severn Tunnel.
It will be up to the WG (after rail devolution) to make it work within the Metro planning.
But wiring to Swansea is not certain yet.
 

Tio Terry

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So ALL GWML trains WILL have to terminate at Maidenhead then?
Heathrow airport paid for the electrification to Heathrow airport junction and Crossrail have paid for the electrification to Maidenhead so GWR cannot use ANY of it because it belongs to somebody else.
Network Rail owns it and runs it and WILL allow ANYBODY to use it if they pay access charges.

The Sectional Appendix will show it authorised for 345's only. Remember, there are no walkways associated with the turnback, the assumption being that the driver will change ends by walking through the train which is not possible with all classes of rolling stock. There are also issues with how the driver will activate the TRTS which could necessitate the driver getting down from the cab between two running roads to activate it.
 

1179_Clee2

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The Sectional Appendix will show it authorised for 345's only. Remember, there are no walkways associated with the turnback, the assumption being that the driver will change ends by walking through the train which is not possible with all classes of rolling stock. There are also issues with how the driver will activate the TRTS which could necessitate the driver getting down from the cab between two running roads to activate it.

The Sectional Appendix shows it is CURRENTLY authorised for Class 345's only.
If GWR wanted to use the turnback siding for Class 387's which are gangwayed throughout so the driver CAN walk through the train to change ends, what would be required? A mountain of paperwork and a some test trains to prove it works.
A big difference to (it is owned by Crossrail and only Crossrail can use it)
 

Dai Corner

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It would not be just one train per hour between Cardiff and Swansea (London services) able to make use of electric traction. Stopping services also connect Swansea with Cardiff and these could be extended to Bristol Temple Meads to replace the present DMU’s that are used on the Cardiff to Taunton service. (Swansea > Cardiff > Newport > Bristol forms a highly populated economic area). In addition, the relatively short valley line from Bridgend to Maesteg could be electrified and DMU’s used on this service could be switched for EMU’s. The Maesteg trains currently join the GWML at Bridgend and then call at Pencoed, Llanharan and Pontyclun before reaching Cardiff. They then normally proceed to/from Cheltenham. I would have thought that a logical eastward leg for these services would be to Ebbw Vale with trains every 30 minutes - Maesteg to Ebbw Vale. (These trains are very overcrowded at the moment).

These additional stopping services on the south Wales mainline between Cardiff and Swansea surely make electrification justified. If the new signalling is complete, it is a pity that they don’t simply push on from Cardiff to Swansea with the wiring. (Might even have avoided the need to purchase some of the more expensive bi-mode Hitachi Intercity Express trains and stuck with the original order )?

EMUs won't get to Temple Meads unless they coast down Filton bank and are pushed back up! :D
 

Andyjs247

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The Sectional Appendix will show it authorised for 345's only. Remember, there are no walkways associated with the turnback, the assumption being that the driver will change ends by walking through the train which is not possible with all classes of rolling stock. There are also issues with how the driver will activate the TRTS which could necessitate the driver getting down from the cab between two running roads to activate it.

So if you need to turn round something other than a 345 then arrange for 2 drivers - one in each cab. Similar to the arrangement that exists if shunting via one of the tunnels at Birmingham New Street. As it's a long walk from one end of a 345 to the other it's probably quicker to use 2 drivers anyway.
 

Tio Terry

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The Sectional Appendix shows it is CURRENTLY authorised for Class 345's only.
If GWR wanted to use the turnback siding for Class 387's which are gangwayed throughout so the driver CAN walk through the train to change ends, what would be required? A mountain of paperwork and a some test trains to prove it works.
A big difference to (it is owned by Crossrail and only Crossrail can use it)

That "mountain of paperwork" will include the financial arrangements.
 

Clarence Yard

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That "mountain of paperwork" will include the financial arrangements.

There will be no financial arrangements if it is part of the National Network. Anybody can apply to NR to get their stock cleared to use it and then they can go in there for free.

If Crossrail want to start any game of charging for the use of parts of the National Network then they had better learn the Access Rules first. It will save them an expensive day out at an Access Disputes hearing.
 

anthony263

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EMUs won't get to Temple Meads unless they coast down Filton bank and are pushed back up! :D

Well I think it was meant afte rthe wires eventually reach Bristol TM. I can see the DFT continuing with the GWR electrification project as it would be too much fallout especially with the welsh government kicking up a storm.

At the end of the day I do think we should get a few electric services west of Cardiff to justify the wires.

Swansea - London Paddington
Swansea - Cardiff (Swanline) with possible extension to Bristol TM replacing the Cardiff - Taunton service which could be routed to run to Yate and Gloucester instead.

Maesteg - Cardiff with a suggested extension through to Ebbw Vale or Abertilery.


Also perhaps some of those bi modes greater Anglia are ordering could be ordered for some routes as it would allow through services under the wires
 

Dai Corner

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Well I think it was meant afte rthe wires eventually reach Bristol TM. I can see the DFT continuing with the GWR electrification project as it would be too much fallout especially with the welsh government kicking up a storm.

At the end of the day I do think we should get a few electric services west of Cardiff to justify the wires.

Swansea - London Paddington
Swansea - Cardiff (Swanline) with possible extension to Bristol TM replacing the Cardiff - Taunton service which could be routed to run to Yate and Gloucester instead.

Maesteg - Cardiff with a suggested extension through to Ebbw Vale or Abertilery.


Also perhaps some of those bi modes greater Anglia are ordering could be ordered for some routes as it would allow through services under the wires

Indeed, I was only joking about the coasting and banking.

Swansea-Cardiff-Newport-Bristol TM stoppers would certainly help justify wiring to Swansea, though I think the DfT would expect the Welsh Government to pay.
 

coppercapped

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Well I think it was meant afte rthe wires eventually reach Bristol TM. I can see the DFT continuing with the GWR electrification project as it would be too much fallout especially with the welsh government kicking up a storm.

At the end of the day I do think we should get a few electric services west of Cardiff to justify the wires.

Swansea - London Paddington
Swansea - Cardiff (Swanline) with possible extension to Bristol TM replacing the Cardiff - Taunton service which could be routed to run to Yate and Gloucester instead.

Maesteg - Cardiff with a suggested extension through to Ebbw Vale or Abertilery.


Also perhaps some of those bi modes greater Anglia are ordering could be ordered for some routes as it would allow through services under the wires

Hmm... At current costs of electrification you will have to be very creative to justify wires for, at best, one long train per hour, two short trains per hour and two short trains going only part of the way (but which would need an additional electrified branch) in each direction.

And why break an existing traffic flow for the sake of operational convenience?

Spending the limited amount of money now available and using the limited number of signalling and OHLE staff to better effect would point at their use on a busier route. The MML for example.

As you suggest, using Anglia-type bi-modes would be a better bet - especially as they would reduce the level of exhaust fumes in the Severn Tunnel still further and are also able to connect places off the electrified routes.
 
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Envoy

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Hmm... At current costs of electrification you will have to be very creative to justify wires for, at best, one long train per hour, two short trains per hour and two short trains going only part of the way (but which would need an additional electrified branch) in each direction.

And why break an existing traffic flow for the sake of operational convenience?

Spending the limited amount of money now available and using the limited number of signalling and OHLE staff to better effect would point at their use on a busier route. The MML for example.

As you suggest, using Anglia-type bi-modes would be a better bet - especially as they would reduce the level of exhaust fumes in the Severn Tunnel still further and are also able to connect places off the electrified routes.

At peak times on weekdays, you have 2 trains per hour between London & Swansea. From PAD - 15.45, 16.15, 16.45, 17.15. 17.45, 18.15, 18.45 & 19.15 all go through to Swansea.

In the morning peak, these departures leave Swansea for PAD:> 4.58,
05.27, 5.58, 6.28, 6.58, 7.28, 7.58, 8.28.

So, had they been able to get the wires through to Swansea, a considerable amount of money would have been saved by ordering electric trains instead of the hybrid versions - where the diesel engines will require on-going maintenance.

You break the existing traffic flow (Taunton to Cardiff) because a change has taken place with electrification whereby it is desirable to operate a new electric flow Swansea > Bristol Temple Meads and switch the diesel service from Taunton to perhaps Gloucester. This helps justify the cost of electrification and removes dangerous fumes from the Severn tunnel as well as stations.

Someone has commented that a Swansea to Bristol Temple Meads electric service would be part of the South Wales Metro and the responsibility of the Welsh Government. All well and good, but it is also a part of the Bristol commuter belt with many people travelling from say Severn Tunnel Junction to Temple Meads or Filton. Likewise, many people from these places commute to Cardiff or Newport. The fact is that the public are living where they can afford and consider time it takes to get to work and the transport facilities that are available. If you have clapped out overloaded Sprinters, then they are more likely to use their cars and jam up the M4 and M32. Modern electric trains on this route will help induce these people off the roads. They don’t give one toss who operates the trains or whether it is the south Wales Metro or the Bristol Metro. All they want are decent fast trains with plenty of space so that they do not have to stand.

Politicians from Cardiff, Newport & Bristol have been taking about co-operating on transport issues. I would contend that Swansea should also be included to form one ‘super region’ which could perhaps extend eastward to include Bath.
 
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