Tanked toilets - A question

Wivenswold · 26 Nov 2016

There's more and more trains that carry toilets waste in tanks rather than depositing it on the track. A preferable option as it means you can use the loo when at stations and there's less chance of P/Way staff encountering "presents" when walking the line.

If a toilet waste tank is full however, the toilets declare themselves out of order. Which can be a problem for passengers if a train gets delayed and there's only one toilet on the unit.

Can these tanks be discharged by the driver in certain circumstances to allow the toilet to be reopened?

It's funny what questions pop up when you're in a traffic jam on the M25 and need to "take a rest".

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HLE · 26 Nov 2016

No they can't.

Would be an interesting feature to have, where best to deposit it all though?

PermitToTravel · 26 Nov 2016

Luton.

robbeech · 26 Nov 2016

Does anyone know how big the tanks are? I guess it varies train to train but a rough idea?

In my line of work, we have many racked items that if something breaks we will remove the entire item and replace it with a spare from the shelf and repair the broken item at a convenient time rather than trying to repair it on site or whilst it is in the rack which would take longer and hold people up.

Could a removable type of tank by incorporated within the vehicle so that it can be taken out safely at a station with a higher dwell time, or as needed if it is the only toilet on board and swapped for an empty one? I appreciate this could likely never be retrofitted, but it doesn't seem like an impossible task to design on a new build. Maybe it just isn't worth it. The facilities to change a dedicated removable tank are smaller and easier to deal with on many more stations than the facilities to empty them in situ.

scott118 · 26 Nov 2016

PermitToTravel said:
Luton.

..already been 'done' surely.. :lol:

6Gman · 26 Nov 2016

robbeech said:
Does anyone know how big the tanks are? I guess it varies train to train but a rough idea?

In my line of work, we have many racked items that if something breaks we will remove the entire item and replace it with a spare from the shelf and repair the broken item at a convenient time rather than trying to repair it on site or whilst it is in the rack which would take longer and hold people up.

Could a removable type of tank by incorporated within the vehicle so that it can be taken out safely at a station with a higher dwell time, or as needed if it is the only toilet on board and swapped for an empty one? I appreciate this could likely never be retrofitted, but it doesn't seem like an impossible task to design on a new build. Maybe it just isn't worth it. The facilities to change a dedicated removable tank are smaller and easier to deal with on many more stations than the facilities to empty them in situ.

Almost certainly totally impractical. Removing bits from a train at a station is very, very, very difficult to the point of impossibility. Do you do it on the platform side among passengers with H&S implications, and the 'delights' of moving a tank full of s*** among the public. Do you do it on the non-platform side? Hardly, because that means somehow getting a "tank remover" (specialist forklift?) onto the adjoining track, which would thus be unavailable for use. Just can't be done!

(And good luck sealing a removable s*** tank!)

najaB · 26 Nov 2016

robbeech said:
The facilities to change a dedicated removable tank are smaller and easier to deal with on many more stations than the facilities to empty them in situ.

Portable CET servicing rigs exist and would be much easier to use than swapping out a whole tank.

headshot119 · 26 Nov 2016

6Gman said:
Almost certainly totally impractical. Removing bits from a train at a station is very, very, very difficult to the point of impossibility. Do you do it on the platform side among passengers with H&S implications, and the 'delights' of moving a tank full of s*** among the public. Do you do it on the non-platform side? Hardly, because that means somehow getting a "tank remover" (specialist forklift?) onto the adjoining track, which would thus be unavailable for use. Just can't be done!

(And good luck sealing a removable s*** tank!)

So how does portable CET equipment pass muster then?

Chrisgr31 · 26 Nov 2016

headshot119 said:
So how does portable CET equipment pass muster then?

Isn't it basically a pump and tank and just empties the onboard tank, into its own tank? See them at London bridge ir is it Kings Cross I have seen them.

6Gman · 26 Nov 2016

headshot119 said:
So how does portable CET equipment pass muster then?

How widely is it used?

(And the question wasn't about portable CET, but about physically removing (and replacing) the tank.)

Wivenswold · 26 Nov 2016

I was thinking that a few drains at points along the line so that it could be done by stopping at a signal.

Yes it would cause a few minutes of delay but I think the alternative would be less convenient for passengers. It's not unusual for people leaving pubs in London to "leave it" until they're on the train.

gimmea50anyday · 27 Nov 2016

Manchester Airport has one aswell for 185/350 use. There was talk of Scarborough getting one aswell but it never happened. Now the new franchise has took over talk once agaon of portable servicing tanks at liverpool newcastle scarborough and cleethorpes wont go away.

For now where toilets become unservicable the only option available is extended station stops at suitable locations for PNB's. North route northbound huddersfield leeds york P5 and 9 and darlington would be suitable southbound unless routed on 12 Leeds wouldnt be suitable. south route stockport sheffield and doncaster wld be considered suitable. Cant vouch for any other routes or locations

61653 HTAFC · 27 Nov 2016

gimmea50anyday said:
Manchester Airport has one aswell for 185/350 use. There was talk of Scarborough getting one aswell but it never happened. Now the new franchise has took over talk once agaon of portable servicing tanks at liverpool newcastle scarborough and cleethorpes wont go away.

For now where toilets become unservicable the only option available is extended station stops at suitable locations for PNB's. North route northbound huddersfield leeds york P5 and 9 and darlington would be suitable southbound unless routed on 12 Leeds wouldnt be suitable. south route stockport sheffield and doncaster wld be considered suitable. Cant vouch for any other routes or locations

Southbound/Westbound on the North route Huddersfield P1 would also be suitable, though the gents on that side aren't the nicest... also not ideal at around 1745 as P1 is needed for the Sheffield 'extra'.

1179_Clee2 · 27 Nov 2016

gimmea50anyday said:
Manchester Airport has one aswell for 185/350 use. There was talk of Scarborough getting one aswell but it never happened. Now the new franchise has took over talk once agaon of portable servicing tanks at liverpool newcastle scarborough and cleethorpes wont go away.

For now where toilets become unservicable the only option available is extended station stops at suitable locations for PNB's. North route northbound huddersfield leeds york P5 and 9 and darlington would be suitable southbound unless routed on 12 Leeds wouldnt be suitable. south route stockport sheffield and doncaster wld be considered suitable. Cant vouch for any other routes or locations

Cleethorpes can empty toilet tanks, so does not need a mobile unit.

causton · 27 Nov 2016

LM have recently got a (maybe two?) portable CET tank at Northampton so when trains have extended dwells, they can be emptied there.

Bigfoot · 27 Nov 2016

Never seen the waste extracted on a platform. What I am presuming that people have seen is that there is a bowser tanking (filling) the freshwater tank which is smaller than the waste tank.

headshot119 · 27 Nov 2016

Bigfoot said:
Never seen the waste extracted on a platform. What I am presuming that people have seen is that there is a bowser tanking (filling) the freshwater tank which is smaller than the waste tank.

No what people have seen is portable CET gear being used to empty the tanks. Although water bowsers are used to fill water tanks on trains as well.

Bigfoot · 27 Nov 2016

headshot119 said:
No what people have seen is portable CET gear being used to empty the tanks. Although water bowsers are used to fill water tanks on trains as well.

I'd like to see one of these...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In action that is.

najaB · 27 Nov 2016

Bigfoot said:
I'd like to see one of these... In action that is.

But not smell!

AnonymousUser1 · 27 Nov 2016

removing tanks and swapping them is a none starter - hell even turdises (port-a-loo) are generally serviced in situ andthey are designed to be swapped with ease ...

as for emptying tanks etc - same as is done thousands of times a day with aircraft and by turdis servicing companies

Smudger105e · 29 Nov 2016

If you empty (or change) the waste tank you also have to fill the fresh water tank.

Sent from my SM-G800F using Tapatalk

DarloRich · 29 Nov 2016

Wivenswold said:
I was thinking that a few drains at points along the line so that it could be done by stopping at a signal.

Yes it would cause a few minutes of delay but I think the alternative would be less convenient for passengers. It's not unusual for people leaving pubs in London to "leave it" until they're on the train.

I am not sure that is a practical solution.

tsr · 29 Nov 2016

I have had the delightful pleasure of spending a fair bit of my railway career in roles which involve the checking of onboard toilets. Although stock with CETs can be prone to the "facilities" going out of use after heavy demand, I generally find that it's actually at least twice as likely that any given toilet has gone out of order with a problem with the flush mechanism/sensors, or has been blocked by excess "items", rather than due to a full effluent tank.

Other problems which I find to be more common, roughly in order of likelihood from highest to lowest, include water dispensing failures (often caused by the tap filter being clogged); passenger vandalism/misuse/general mess; door locking faults; toilet door reset switch faults; jammed toilet roll holders meaning the toilet cannot reasonably left in use; and lack of cleaning before the train is berthed and shut down, leaving mess in/around toilet to stagnate (sorry!).

In short, I'd rather have a greater number of dedicated fitters roving the network to fix the technical issues, such as tap problems or jammed bog roll dispensers, rather than greater numbers of CET emptying facilities, which are often highly unpleasant to work near due to the smell, and often cannot be used during tight turnarounds anyway.

Chrisgr31 said:
Isn't it basically a pump and tank and just empties the onboard tank, into its own tank? See them at London bridge ir is it Kings Cross I have seen them.

Although portable CET emptying equipment may exist (as documented above), the kit at London Bridge is most certainly only for filling water tanks, not emptying anything. The same kit is also in use at Victoria.

Smudger105e · 29 Nov 2016

tsr said:
I have had the delightful pleasure of spending a fair bit of my railway career in roles which involve the checking of onboard toilets. Although stock with CETs can be prone to the "facilities" going out of use after heavy demand, I generally find that it's actually at least twice as likely that any given toilet has gone out of order with a problem with the flush mechanism/sensors, or has been blocked by excess "items", rather than due to a full effluent tank.

Other problems which I find to be more common, roughly in order of likelihood from highest to lowest, include water dispensing failures (often caused by the tap filter being clogged); passenger vandalism/misuse/general mess; door locking faults; toilet door reset switch faults; jammed toilet roll holders meaning the toilet cannot reasonably left in use; and lack of cleaning before the train is berthed and shut down, leaving mess in/around toilet to stagnate (sorry!).

In short, I'd rather have a greater number of dedicated fitters roving the network to fix the technical issues, such as tap problems or jammed bog roll dispensers, rather than greater numbers of CET emptying facilities, which are often highly unpleasant to work near due to the smell, and often cannot be used during tight turnarounds anyway.

Although portable CET emptying equipment may exist (as documented above), the kit at London Bridge is most certainly only for filling water tanks, not emptying anything. The same kit is also in use at Victoria.

That is why tbe waste tanks are considerably larger than the clean water tanks.

Sent from my SM-G800F using Tapatalk

krus_aragon · 29 Nov 2016

Smudger105e said:
That is why tbe waste tanks are considerably larger than the clean water tanks.

The waste tanks will also be expected to hold the capacity of the clean water tank plus added effluent, as a minimum.

Welly · 29 Nov 2016

Why not just discharge the effluence in a fine spray whilst moving? I once had the "pleasure" of being sprayed by a Mark 4 passing by at 100mph. :-x

Smudger105e · 29 Nov 2016

krus_aragon said:
The waste tanks will also be expected to hold the capacity of the clean water tank plus added effluent, as a minimum.

I seem to remember from my Semvac course that the effluent tanks have more than twice the capaciy of the fresh tanks, to account for refill of header tank plus additional "material".

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Skipness · 30 Nov 2016

If of a nervous disposition, please stop reading now ..............

When I was a coach driver on long distance (e.g. across Europe) it was not unknown for the co driver to pull the plug on the toilet tank on a quiet stretch of the autobahn and deposit a film of blue liquid across the Tarmac. Hopefully there was a BMW Z4 with its hood down close behind

yorksrob · 30 Nov 2016

tsr said:
I have had the delightful pleasure of spending a fair bit of my railway career in roles which involve the checking of onboard toilets. Although stock with CETs can be prone to the "facilities" going out of use after heavy demand, I generally find that it's actually at least twice as likely that any given toilet has gone out of order with a problem with the flush mechanism/sensors, or has been blocked by excess "items", rather than due to a full effluent tank.

Other problems which I find to be more common, roughly in order of likelihood from highest to lowest, include water dispensing failures (often caused by the tap filter being clogged); passenger vandalism/misuse/general mess; door locking faults; toilet door reset switch faults; jammed toilet roll holders meaning the toilet cannot reasonably left in use; and lack of cleaning before the train is berthed and shut down, leaving mess in/around toilet to stagnate (sorry!).

In short, I'd rather have a greater number of dedicated fitters roving the network to fix the technical issues, such as tap problems or jammed bog roll dispensers, rather than greater numbers of CET emptying facilities, which are often highly unpleasant to work near due to the smell, and often cannot be used during tight turnarounds anyway.

Although portable CET emptying equipment may exist (as documented above), the kit at London Bridge is most certainly only for filling water tanks, not emptying anything. The same kit is also in use at Victoria.

When one is desperate, a dodgy tap or a jammed bog roll dispenser are problems of a much smaller magnitude than the toilet being OOU altogether.

Phil. · 30 Nov 2016

Welly said:
Why not just discharge the effluence in a fine spray whilst moving? I once had the "pleasure" of being sprayed by a Mark 4 passing by at 100mph. :-x

You've just answered your own question.

Tanked toilets - A question

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