asking passengers about the planned increase's in train fares.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38180049
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38180049
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Rail fare increase: BBC breakfast News reporting from London Waterloo
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NSEFAN
Established Member
Presumably they didn't chose either of those in case of physical violence from GTR passengers who might snap at hearing the news?jonmorris0844 said:
Indeed - though it's no coincidence that an 1 month refund for Southern season ticket holders has been announced on the same morning...
Or the BBC couldn't risk not actually getting to a GTR station to report from in the first place....
Polarbear
Established Member
The usual drivel from BBC as regards fare increases. I was watching just before the 07:00 announcement and the reporter referred to Waterloo station as one used by many "Southern" commuters. Thankfully, this was altered by the time he did his next piece to camera around 20 minutes later! 
By and large, the fare increases are driven by government policy, so quite why the BBC get so het up about it three times each year is something of a mystery.
They go though the same motions three times each year;
Also, moaning about the very engineering works that have to take place to improve the network is something the BBC seems to be good at, completely missing the point as per usual!
By and large, the fare increases are driven by government policy, so quite why the BBC get so het up about it three times each year is something of a mystery.
They go though the same motions three times each year;
- When the rate of regulated fare increases is announced in the summer
- When the rate of unregulated fare increases is announced (December)
- When the fares actually go up in January
Also, moaning about the very engineering works that have to take place to improve the network is something the BBC seems to be good at, completely missing the point as per usual!
Code:
10 PRINT "People complain about the state of the railway."
20 PRINT "The railway says it will close lines in the holidays to do work to improve the state of the railway"
30 PRINT "People complain that the railway isn't running trains because of engineering work."
40 GOTO 10
RUNFailed Unit
Established Member
Us GTR users have to pay for the new trains somehow
the increase in fares will hopefully make the service unaffordable for a few others so they reduce overcrowding at the same time. 
Us GTR users have to pay for the new trains somehow
Most of the money is being paid to move first class around on the 387s I'm told.
The increase in fares is relentless and unwarranted; most fares are poor value for money for most people.
Almost anything the Rail Delivery Group (ATOC) says can be discarded as inaccurate propaganda that isn't worth reading. I know roughly what rubbish they are going to spout before they even say it.
The only way forward is to use cheaper fares that represent better value. I very rarely buy a ticket from origin to destination as it's usually a rip-off. It's nearly always either cheaper to "split", or to buy a ticket for a different journey, and then starting and/or finishing "short".
The average Trainsplit customer saves around £10 (or was £10 last time I checked) and the savings can be even greater when combined with using better value fares such as Brighton to Bournemouth "Not via London" being used to start short at Clapham Jn (no harm divulging that one as it's common knowledge and the DfT won't let the TOCs get rid of it)
The best value fares which can be used for otherwise costly journeys can't be divulged where pricing managers may put a stop to their use, so attending a Fares Workshop is a good way to find out how to save money.
Paying full price fares from origin to destination is totally unfeasible for anyone who isn't rather wealthy. As I get paid several grand less than an LU CSA, with no travel perks whatsoever, I can't afford to pay the ludicrous fares that the likes of CrossCountry ask for, so legitimate alternatives have to be deployed if I am to continue travelling by train. I know many are in the same position.
Almost anything the Rail Delivery Group (ATOC) says can be discarded as inaccurate propaganda that isn't worth reading. I know roughly what rubbish they are going to spout before they even say it.
The only way forward is to use cheaper fares that represent better value. I very rarely buy a ticket from origin to destination as it's usually a rip-off. It's nearly always either cheaper to "split", or to buy a ticket for a different journey, and then starting and/or finishing "short".
The average Trainsplit customer saves around £10 (or was £10 last time I checked) and the savings can be even greater when combined with using better value fares such as Brighton to Bournemouth "Not via London" being used to start short at Clapham Jn (no harm divulging that one as it's common knowledge and the DfT won't let the TOCs get rid of it)
The best value fares which can be used for otherwise costly journeys can't be divulged where pricing managers may put a stop to their use, so attending a Fares Workshop is a good way to find out how to save money.
Paying full price fares from origin to destination is totally unfeasible for anyone who isn't rather wealthy. As I get paid several grand less than an LU CSA, with no travel perks whatsoever, I can't afford to pay the ludicrous fares that the likes of CrossCountry ask for, so legitimate alternatives have to be deployed if I am to continue travelling by train. I know many are in the same position.
Out of interest, why won't the DfT Le them get rid of that fare? I thought they were went to be a friend of the TOCs?
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Minilad
Established Member
Just seen a vox pop on the ITV news about fare rises. A woman was complaining that it's unfair as commuters never see any more money invested in the railways. She was standing in the middle on Birmingham New Street. That's the station thats recently been transformed at a cost of 750 Million.
Busaholic
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According to the BBC Radio 4 news report at 6 p.m. up until ten years ago subsidies paid for 70% of train services, fares for the other 30%: then the government of the day decided the balance was wrong and adjusted it to the extent that the percentages are now the other way round. Seems simplistic to me, and not quite how I remember the situation, but I don't have any alternatives to hand, so can anyone enlighten me?
wingsoveryorks
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Yes, this is a fair point. But you have to understand that passengers don't just want the creation of a pretty view whilst waiting for their mobile sardine can to appear, or not as the case may be. They don't see or always appreciate this form of investment.
Trains overcrowded and delayed
TOCs "treat us like cattle" etc etc
TOCs lay on more carriages and services
Fares increase to cope with costs & investment
Timetable becomes saturated
Delays increase as timetable unworkable
Added capacity eaten up in 5 minutes.
Trains overcrowded and delayed
And repeat......
TOCs "treat us like cattle" etc etc
TOCs lay on more carriages and services
Fares increase to cope with costs & investment
Timetable becomes saturated
Delays increase as timetable unworkable
Added capacity eaten up in 5 minutes.
Trains overcrowded and delayed
And repeat......
railfan100
On Moderation
The railways in the UK are broken and flawed, the TOC model is complex and ludicrous and the privatisation has left us with an overpriced not fit for purpose system. Part of the original reasons for privatisation were competition and lower fares this has not really occured in the bulk and in many ways the railway costs the tax payer more than it did under BR and the fares are madness in general.
For the cost of some of the 'walk on' fares it is cheaper to run a high end large engine petrol car and travel in comfort and still overall pay less. TOC 'fat cats' take huge sums out of the industry in profits and the infrastructure development in many cases is funded by the taxpayer still. BR was very good at the engineering and offered reasonable value for money, now the taxpayer is fleeced to develop a system at inflated cost.
The most basic concepts are flawed not even enough seats for the travelling public, some TOC's with 2-car trains on order that before they have even arrived are not of suitable capacity. Batches or trains being ordered that are not compatible with previous orders limiting multiple working and operational flexibility, the system for me from top to bottom is broken, and it is the governments fault.
For the cost of some of the 'walk on' fares it is cheaper to run a high end large engine petrol car and travel in comfort and still overall pay less. TOC 'fat cats' take huge sums out of the industry in profits and the infrastructure development in many cases is funded by the taxpayer still. BR was very good at the engineering and offered reasonable value for money, now the taxpayer is fleeced to develop a system at inflated cost.
The most basic concepts are flawed not even enough seats for the travelling public, some TOC's with 2-car trains on order that before they have even arrived are not of suitable capacity. Batches or trains being ordered that are not compatible with previous orders limiting multiple working and operational flexibility, the system for me from top to bottom is broken, and it is the governments fault.
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hairyhandedfool
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Greater Manchester is set for another Off-Peak fare rise of up to 20%, meaning that some fares have risen nearly 50% in just four months!
Did the point that out and question her, like the would a politician or did they just accept what she said as if it were fact?!
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Kevin_Brum12
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A station that has been transformed at a cost of £750 million, but without any extra platforms or tracks, where things are still as bad at platform level as they ever were and operated by trains that are bursting at the seams.
The problem is that millions have been invested in the railways, but have ended up in the hands of bureaucrats, lawyers, consultants the foreign railways like DB and SNCF and the painters and designers everytime DafT changes a franchise or one of the TOC's decides to paint their train a different colour of pink.
If half of that money had been invested on trains, signalling and equipment we would probably have a mich better railway.
Minilad
Established Member
But rightly or wrongly it's still investment. I just thought it summed up reporting in general that the reporter didn't mention it, just let her carry on unchallenged.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
same old tired nonsense about burecrats and lawyers etc
BTW have you been to Birmingham New Street - how much more than £750m do you think it would cost to add extra platforms? The platforms themselves are much better than they were.
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Errrrr...it's a railway station in the middle of a city centre surrounded by a massive shopping centre. Where the hell is the room for the extra platforms and tracks? Network Rail can't just click their fingers and acquire land for free to bulldoze.
F Great Eastern
Established Member
All of those big bad private companies ordering the minimum amount of rolling stock they can get away with or neglecting to order rolling stock at all since they prefer to cram all of their trains to breaking point at peak times so they can sit back in the office smoking cigars watching their pots of gold mount up whilst the public rides on in ram-shackled, overcrowded, insufficient old stock that they deliberately crowd with the minimum future proofing leading to unsafe journeys because there is too much overcrowding.
Then the prices! Look at them! I can fly to Rome for 4 weeks with my kids for the same price that I can travel from London to Edinburgh. Not only that but I also have a table on the plane and a complimentary snack unlike that overpriced on train catering. Also why do those trains not run on boxing day, can't they do the engineering work during the night or do they not want to pay their staff more so they can cash in further on their greed?
The answer surely has to be to bring back British Rail. Then the DFT can order new trains that will arrive within a few months of being ordered which the process for will only take a few weeks because they don't drag their feet to save money. There will be huge capacity, every train would be 12-16 carriages long, everyone will have a table bay of 4 and every train will run at 200mph and nobody would ever have to stand at any time. All trains would be built in Derby and if they were 10 minutes late they would refund all your ticket price.
Every penny will be invested in the services and the unions won't use this to further their own agenda. There will be greater investment, the fares will be 80% cheaper and the cost to the taxpayer will be cut by 99%. Trains would run 24 hours a day and 7 days per week and there will be at least 3-4 guards for every train. There will be the same timetable 7 days a week and free Wifi would be on all trains and ironing board seats would be banned. There will be ticket offices at every station with minimum of 3-4 staff including tube stations.
Off-Peak tickets would be disbanded and there will be one price for all. Kids would travel free with a paying adult and students would pay 50% fare. Railcards would be abolished and paid with a yearly payment card to give 25% off all journeys open to all. Pacers will be sent to areas that are anti-brexit areas who will then be dubbed as being re moaners for putting up with them. The newly nationalised railways would be proof that brexit was the right idea when they turn out to be the best in the western world.
Then the prices! Look at them! I can fly to Rome for 4 weeks with my kids for the same price that I can travel from London to Edinburgh. Not only that but I also have a table on the plane and a complimentary snack unlike that overpriced on train catering. Also why do those trains not run on boxing day, can't they do the engineering work during the night or do they not want to pay their staff more so they can cash in further on their greed?
The answer surely has to be to bring back British Rail. Then the DFT can order new trains that will arrive within a few months of being ordered which the process for will only take a few weeks because they don't drag their feet to save money. There will be huge capacity, every train would be 12-16 carriages long, everyone will have a table bay of 4 and every train will run at 200mph and nobody would ever have to stand at any time. All trains would be built in Derby and if they were 10 minutes late they would refund all your ticket price.
Every penny will be invested in the services and the unions won't use this to further their own agenda. There will be greater investment, the fares will be 80% cheaper and the cost to the taxpayer will be cut by 99%. Trains would run 24 hours a day and 7 days per week and there will be at least 3-4 guards for every train. There will be the same timetable 7 days a week and free Wifi would be on all trains and ironing board seats would be banned. There will be ticket offices at every station with minimum of 3-4 staff including tube stations.
Off-Peak tickets would be disbanded and there will be one price for all. Kids would travel free with a paying adult and students would pay 50% fare. Railcards would be abolished and paid with a yearly payment card to give 25% off all journeys open to all. Pacers will be sent to areas that are anti-brexit areas who will then be dubbed as being re moaners for putting up with them. The newly nationalised railways would be proof that brexit was the right idea when they turn out to be the best in the western world.
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WatcherZero
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Yes in 2004 the Labour Government decided to up the annual rise in rail fares from RPI+1% to RPI+3% to help fund infrastructure investment. The first Coalition Government decided as part of austerity in 2010 to progressively change the balance between Subsidy and fares from around 75:25 at the time to 50:50, of course passenger numbers (and through them revenue) have kept growing while costs to maintain and operate (barring the marginal cost of extra services) have remained mostly fixed and so its swung past that target.
Fares have risen by 25.6% in real terms since 2004 however the amount the taxpayer contributes to the operation (excluding enhancement) of services has fallen by more than that amount meaning the cost of using the service in reality haven't risen the onus has just switched from society via the taxpayer to pay it to the end user to pay for it.
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Spankthemonkey
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Lol.
My favourite comment of the day came during the Radio 2 lunchtime show when that chap Jeremy Vine suggested that making railstaff pay full fares would help alleviate the problem.
I completely agree. My rail usage now is a fraction of what it once was - most journeys involve something priced by Cross Country so it always ends up being considerably cheaper to drive. I've an upcoming trip to various places coming up and whilst the fares for some of it are very reasonable I'm still having to drive the first 150 miles or so because it's a fraction of the cost of travelling with Cross Country.
And thats alone - add another person and it's even more difficult to justify.
How can this be right? It is absolutely right to blame government policy for this - if we are to reduce private car usage a public transport system that incentivises leaving the car at home is essential. Just look at the amount we subside rail versus say Germany.
Every year the price of rail travel increases whereas in real terms its probably never been cheaper to drive a car.
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I had to read it twice just to make sure you were taking the P The fares comparison is always very lazily done on the TV news. Comparing walk up train fares with airlines which you have to book in advance. Yawn.
F Great Eastern
Established Member
It was quite late, I could have done better earlier in the day!
Being serious however it's the same arguments recycled year after year mostly by people who have no idea how the industry actually works. The system is far from perfect, but a lot of the media are guilty of the ignorance and a lot of parties with vested interests are only too happy to use the ignorance to trot out nonsense arguments on both sides of the debate.
So many people have this image like the one I outlined though, despite the fact the government is a big part of the problem and actually has a lot more to do with a number of the issues they complain about, however the TOC gets the blame even though in some cases even though a lot of the capacity issues are related to government and DFT issues rather than the TOCs themselves who are pretty helpless.
Most people believe that the TOC's are on some massive margins, you ask the average person who complains about the system and a lot of them think the TOC's are making profits of 20% and above even though it couldn't be further from the truth. You ask people on overcrowded routes where DFT have botched up rolling stock orders, allocations or led to massive delays in their procurement and they blame the TOC who is at the mercy of government.
On the other hand we have seen some incompetent operators over the years such as Connex, National Express East Anglia, National Express East Coast, and perhaps I'd even throw Thameslink in that bracket these days, but in the public's eyes 95% of the problems are caused by TOC's even though in fact that in reality that is far from the case. For the government though that is great news, because essentially right now they know that they can escape the blame because of the fact people will blame the operators.
Also the comparisons with other countries railways often infuriate me. You cannot compare traveling as a commuter in one country with experiences traveling in another country for a holiday and saying this is proof x railways are better than us is missing the point entirely. I've lived in four countries and when I've visited them I thought their transport was perfect, but when you start using it as a commuter during busy times you notice things more as you are more time sensitive, travel during peak hours where crowding will be worse and ongoing things that you won't see as a leisure traveler. To really compare operations you need to use other countries for a prolonged period of time.
Because drivers do not pay the full cost of motoring, that is, the cost to society of all the negative side effects. It is called externalized costs, and operates across many industrial sectors; it is why we can pay for imported goods at cheaper prices that we can manufacture ourselves, because other people overseas are subsidizing the cost with their quality of life (e.g. pollution, poor working conditions, poor human rights).
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