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Guardian columnist suggests vandalising Southern stations

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SGS

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6Gman

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Ah, Polly Toynbee ...

Wrong on just about everything for the past 30 years.
 

4630

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I was under the impression that 'encouraging or assisting' a crime is an offence under the Serious Crime Act 2007.
 

Camden

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Given the Southern network goes largely through Toryland, I would have thought the opportunity to create a "rebellion the government can’t ignore" comes around for their customers comparatively often. They're called elections.
 

tsr

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Whilst I wholly disagree with encouraging the actions in the penultimate paragraph for a number of reasons (not finishing with the issue of vandalism), if it were not there it would be a much more plausible article. For this reason it is a shame it was included, and whatever the reputation of the author, I wonder how it slipped through the net at all.

Despite what one may say about political bias within the press, and I will not aim to defend either end of the spectrum, the rest of the article is better than what I have read from a variety of outlets, and immensely more satisfactory when assessing the erosion of onboard staff job roles to the point of total extinction. The overall possibility of a lack of onboard staff in the medium-term appears to be something which the author is not happy with, and is a point she seems to encourage her readers to realise. Other outlets, for all their pros and cons, seem far less willing to acknowledge this.

(As a side note, though, I would comment that it is still always amusing when I see the inaccurate mentions of "opening the doors". All such Southern routes where conductors currently do this will retain their services. This is because none of those routes will be suitable for DOO for quite some time. Closing the doors would be rather more apt.)

As for the particular modes of vandalism, encouraging fare evasion is also likely to encourage anti-social behaviour, and if you really can't guarantee staff onboard more trains from January onwards, that is not a good thing. You would also find that auditors would be less than happy at the lack of functionality within station equipment, and it would be flagged up for remedying extremely quickly. It would also be of no actual benefit whatsoever in trying to improve the service, and would require such consistency around the network to ensure "free travel" for the dissatisfied that it would be bound to have no practical benefit for them either.
 
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Starmill

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Tbh I'm surprised there hasn't been more vandalism of Southern stations after what has happened.
 

ScotGG

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She's on dodgy ground but there's little doubt that protests, peaceful or otherwise, do attract much more media attention and worry those in charge. Things seem to move much quicker afterwards.
 

fowler9

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If you think Polly Toynbee calling for vandalism in the Guardian was bad you should read the Daily Mail. Some clown wrote an opinion piece saying he wants everyone on strike sacked. He wants to get rid of the unions, presumably along with paid leave, mat leave, workers rights, all that kind of stuff.
 
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NSEFAN

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If you think Polly Toynbee calling for vandalism in the Guardian was bad you should read the Daily Mail. Some clown wrote an opinion piece saying he wants everyone on strike sacked. He wants to get rid of the unions, presumably along with paid leave, mat leave, workers rights, all that kind of stuff.
Yes, but then I'd expect that kind of attitude from someone who writes for the Mail. I'd have expected Guardian writers to know better than to encourage acts of vandalism as a means of protest. ;)
 

D1009

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If you think Polly Toynbee calling for vandalism in the Guardian was bad you should read the Daily Mail. Some clown wrote an opinion piece saying he wants everyone on strike sacked. He wants to get rid of the unions, presumably along with paid leave, mat leave, workers rights, all that kind of stuff.
Yes, but even that isn't encouraging criminal activity.
 

pemma

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Yes, but then I'd expect that kind of attitude from someone who writes for the Mail. I'd have expected Guardian writers to know better than to encourage acts of vandalism as a means of protest. ;)

Perhaps she assumes the readers are intelligent enough to know the difference between a serious comment and a facetious comment? After all it's not aimed at people who would prefer to read a tabloid to a broadsheet.

Some Daily Mail readers voted for Brexit without knowing what countries are and aren't in Europe!
 
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tsr

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I'm sure I've already seen f**k Southern! sprayed somewhere.

I've seen that sort of thing several times on trains lately, though it has to be said that the graffiti contained similar sentiments without the swearing.

It may well be that regular graffiti culprits are taking this upon themselves as a new idea to disfigure rolling stock, but if it happens to be regular commuters who are only doing it to spite their local TOC (and I can't say either way) it is totally counter-productive as a means of protest. Any offensive language within graffiti on train interiors could result in that area of the train being locked out, and in extreme cases or if on the outside, the whole unit(s) may be withdrawn from service. I have withdrawn trains, coaches and compartments due to vandalism which could have caused discomfort or offence, and many of my colleagues would do the same. This, of course, results in a rather worse service for the masses...
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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Perhaps she assumes the readers are intelligent enough to know the difference between a serious comment and a facetious comment? After all it's not aimed at people who would prefer to read a tabloid to a broadsheet.

I would be interested in hearing how a purely legal view of the written comments of Polly Toynbee in their exhortation to perform criminal damage would be viewed.
 

Chapeltom

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I would be interested in hearing how a purely legal view of the written comments of Polly Toynbee in their exhortation to perform criminal damage would be viewed.

I was going to say the same myself. Do her comments amount to inciting criminal activity? Is there such a crime? She's on dodgy ground either way...
 

Bletchleyite

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The wisdom of Polly Toynbee: "But have these commuters no wit or imagination to devise protests that would force the government to take action? The very least direct action might include a bit of polite vandalism, such as glueing all Southern ticket machines on every station to deny them ticket revenue and jamming open all ticket barriers."

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ebellion-government-cant-ignore-southern-rail

Good grief!

Polly Toynbee is an utter gob. I can't stand the drivel she writes in the Grauniad (a paper I otherwise quite like). She is one of that variety of socialist who has absolutely no foundation in reality of any of her ideas.

FWIW, is there an offence of incitement to criminal damage? If so...... :)
 

EM2

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While I don't agree with the suggestions put forward in the article, I am very surprised that some form of mass disobedience has not been organised by GTR customers.
 

Phil.

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If you think Polly Toynbee calling for vandalism in the Guardian was bad you should read the Daily Mail. Some clown wrote an opinion piece saying he wants everyone on strike sacked. He wants to get rid of the unions, presumably along with paid leave, mat leave, workers rights, all that kind of stuff.

Given that Southern passengers have been f**ked up hill and down dale through no fault of their own for the past several months it's not hard to understand how someone might come to that conclusion.
I've made a comment, I'm not agreeing with the paper's sentiments.
 

AlterEgo

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While I don't agree with the suggestions put forward in the article, I am very surprised that some form of mass disobedience has not been organised by GTR customers.

Because, contrary to popular belief on the DOO thread, most of the passengers don't really want to pick a side. They're just peed off.

In other news, Toynbee is a complete prat: confirmed. The very archetype of a champagne socialist.
 

jon0844

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A PR friend of mine is like this, who is incredibly rich and now lives in Australia but still does PR in the UK - so regularly flies back here for events or to meet up with friends. He posts on social media the almost obligatory shots of his champagne in the airport lounge, and his first class seat on the plane, so I think I can safely say champagne socialist without ANY exaggeration!

He's a nice guy work wise, but his political views seem extremely hypocritical. Very much a 'do as I say, not as I do' person.
 

sarahj

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While I don't agree with the suggestions put forward in the article, I am very surprised that some form of mass disobedience has not been organised by GTR customers.



There has been the odd comment of folks working commuter trains of groups not showing their tickets. However, since the last commuter train I walked through on Monday night was over an hour late, and then held outside Barnham for about 10 mins waiting for a platform, I admit I did not ask to see tickets, just answered punters questions.
Poor punters, train then sat at Barnham waiting for new staff who when arrived, only had time to take it to Havant and not Fareham (was supposed to go to Southampton)
 

tsr

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There has been the odd comment of folks working commuter trains of groups not showing their tickets. However, since the last commuter train I walked through on Monday night was over an hour late, and then held outside Barnham for about 10 mins waiting for a platform, I admit I did not ask to see tickets, just answered punters questions.
Poor punters, train then sat at Barnham waiting for new staff who when arrived, only had time to take it to Havant and not Fareham (was supposed to go to Southampton)

Certainly more than the odd comment, I can assure you. Ticket checks are almost a complete no-go zone on certain routes due to the potential for lynchings! To be fair I can see that asking people to prove they've paid for a service which they barely receive, and for which they are likely to be eligible for a possibly elusive but nonetheless substantial refund, is currently going to go down like a lead balloon, even if the railway employee has the definite technical and legal "upper hand". It doesn't mean staff should be invisible, and I am always worried when qualified conductors think that somehow revenue checks and visibility are always the same thing, but checking tickets in order to pick up a rather low ratio of pounds per insult (or worse) is not always particularly sensible.

In fact there are certain routes where the unofficial policy for some years on parts of the GTR network - perhaps not the specific areas where you end up most - has been not to check tickets on trains delayed much beyond minutes in double figures, certainly in Standard Class areas where people will at least be seated in the correct place, such has been the sheer backlash encountered if you did.

Unfortunately this leads to two very polarised reactions: "I'm glad they're leaving us alone, it's delayed and overcrowded" versus "Conductors are a waste of space, they don't even check our tickets and there's nothing else to do". To be quite frank I would rather spend a shift patrolling trains, planning journeys for people, fixing any faults, and answering journey questions, than trawl my way through a 3+2 377, extracting people's seasons off them on a 12 minute late stopper when the next one is two signals behind and they're all a bit grumpy because they could have had quarter of an hour longer in bed. It seems this approach works well for a good chunk of passengers.
 
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jon0844

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I see the Guardian has done a deal to link up (in a small way, at least to begin) with Vice.

I wonder where that's going to lead?
 

HowardGWR

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Toynbee merely pondered why folk have not taken the law into their own hands. At no point does she write that they should do so. That's the difference and her articles will always be scrutinised by the newspaper's lawyers. They may worthy of the various insults that have been thrown here, but they aren't stupid.
 
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