Is higher education still worth it?

Drsatan · 11 Dec 2016

Does anyone feel that, in this time when over half of recent university graduates are in jobs that do not require a degree and when the graduate earning premium has decreased, that attending university (and incurring a substantial debt in the process) is still worth it?

I hear people say "well you should have studied maths/insert STEM subject here" which angers me to no extents. This is because the jobs for STEM graduates simply aren't there, or they're based in London, necessitating forking out half of your salary to live in a grotty room. With no options but to stay there, forever in eternal gratitude to your BTL overlords.

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AlterEgo · 11 Dec 2016

I can't speak for the general situation facing 18 year olds at the moment, but I don't have a degree and never attended any further or higher education institution. This was mainly because I am humanities-based and there's no real money to be had in a History degree.

I'm 30, own my own flat and a buy-to-let, and earning over £50k though, so you definitely don't need a degree to do nicely for yourself.

Simon11 · 11 Dec 2016

I was lucky do be at university when it only cost £3k per year. Even then it wasn't really worth that fee against the number of quality delivered hours of lectures.

However, it was the year placement while at university which got me into the rail industry and without this along with the degree ticking box exercise, I wouldn't be in my current role.

deltic · 11 Dec 2016

Drsatan said:
Does anyone feel that, in this time when over half of recent university graduates are in jobs that do not require a degree and when the graduate earning premium has decreased, that attending university (and incurring a substantial debt in the process) is still worth it?

I hear people say "well you should have studied maths/insert STEM subject here" which angers me to no extents. This is because the jobs for STEM graduates simply aren't there, or they're based in London, necessitating forking out half of your salary to live in a grotty room. With no options but to stay there, forever in eternal gratitude to your BTL overlords.

depends very much on what degree you study for, where you study and what class of degree you get - a Pass degree in English from nowhere town university is unlikely to give you a return on your investment - a 1st class Economics degree from LSE could lead to a very lucrative career which will let you pay of your student debts very quickly.

I suggest there are plenty of STEM graduate jobs around the country - just depends whether you are interested in the type of work they offer.

lemonic · 11 Dec 2016

If you have a good 'STEM' degree, there are plenty of jobs out there. Yes, a lot of them are in London, but I would argue it is easier to get an appropriate job outside London, since from my experience most graduates working in these fields want to work in London.

TheEdge · 11 Dec 2016

I got a degree while it was still £3k per year (just) but I've never used it. To someone starting now I'd make sure that you plan to use a degree if you get it. in fact that is the exact advice I gave to my brother recently.

I got lucky and got a railway job right out of uni so I'm 25 and already have a solid 4 years of paying off my loan which is nice.

Drsatan · 11 Dec 2016

Thanks for your replies

I studied History at a Russell Group university, yet work part time and have never earned enough to start paying off my student loans.

While I enjoyed my time at university, I still find it iniquitous that many 18-year-olds are sold the dream of university, only to find out that to a large extent, the careers they were promised either require further study or working for free (endemic in creative industries).

And yes, I was lucky enough to attend university when tuition fees were £3k per annum.

With regards to studying Economics at LSE, that isn't a viable option for many poorer students as student loans simply do not cover the cost of accommodation in the capital. It's unsurprising that first-year students withheld rent in protest at rising accommodation charges

If studying at one of the UK's best universities is out of reach for even middle class students, you know higher education policy is broken.

ralphchadkirk · 11 Dec 2016

Drsatan said:
This is because the jobs for STEM graduates simply aren't there, or they're based in London, necessitating forking out half of your salary to live in a grotty room.

Rubbish, I earn about £30k/year as a graduate, and I rent a house in outer London with friends, with bills, food, and rent only coming to 30-40% of my monthly take home pay.

me123 · 11 Dec 2016

I think that nowadays, certainly for students in England and Wales, you really need to go to University with a plan. It's not really just enough to go and get a degree anymore, as students like Drsatan have sadly discovered.

But University and HE is still definitely worth it for many. For quite a lot of jobs (medicine, dentistry, veterinary medicine, law, classical music, pharmacy, accounting, nursing, allied health professions, engineering, teaching...) you absolutely need a degree in order to do the job, so for these students it's absolutely worthwhile. People tend to go into these courses with a view to working in the specified job at the end.

I think degrees in other subjects that aren't vocational in nature are still worthwhile, but i think that candidates really need to have a few ideas of where they would want to go with that degree when they apply. They need to have a look at what jobs they want and what their proposed degree offers before they go down that route. Lots of students go to university without a plan and just see what happens, and in my experience lots of these students are the ones that end up without the degree level jobs at the end.

I think that's quite sad really - university is a great opportunity to learn more about the world and about yourself, and I think that a lot of school leavers really do need that extra time in order to find the right career for them, even if that involved taking a very general course at an HE establishment. But with the cost of tuition so high and the degree level jobs often not being there, it's hard to justify university nowadays as a "voyage of self-exploration".

yorkie · 11 Dec 2016

Drsatan said:
Does anyone feel that, in this time when over half of recent university graduates are in jobs that do not require a degree and when the graduate earning premium has decreased, that attending university (and incurring a substantial debt in the process) is still worth it?

There is no easy answer to this.

It depends on what job you go on to get

and what you want to study, and how much you enjoy it, and so on...

Drsatan said:
I hear people say "well you should have studied maths/insert STEM subject here" which angers me to no extents. This is because the jobs for STEM graduates simply aren't there, or they're based in London, necessitating forking out half of your salary to live in a grotty room. With no options but to stay there, forever in eternal gratitude to your BTL overlords.

Well, if you enjoy Uni and the subject and it's also likely to be a useful subject to your intended career, then providing you can do so affordably, it probably is worth it.

If you don't go on to earn a decent salary you won't have to repay the loan anyway. And if you do go on to earn a decent salary, you only pay a proportion of income above the threshold to repay the fees.

Xenophon PCDGS · 12 Dec 2016

All I can say on the subject was during my Mathematics study at Manchester University, which culminated in a First some fifty years ago in 1966, is that Mathematics is a subject that can certainly aid a future career with its mind discipline and logic appreciation.

Of course, in those far-off days, fees were never even a minute part of the equation.

bangor-toad · 12 Dec 2016

Drsatan said:
I hear people say "well you should have studied maths/insert STEM subject here" which angers me to no extents. This is because the jobs for STEM graduates simply aren't there, or they're based in London (snip)

I really have to disagree with this bit.
The STEM jobs market from where I sit (within a University) seems to be buoyant. In part I try to recruit / persuade final year students to stay on to do various paid projects or PhDs. I really struggle to find people. Why? Simply that there are numerous jobs available and that people want to take those.
It is said that many of the students actually have several job offers each and they can choose what they would like to do.

Many roles go through several advertising cycles before we get any qualified candidates to apply - let alone shortlist and interview. It took nearly 18 months and three major advertising campaigns to recruit a colleague in my office - and even then only 2 people were shortlisted for interview.

I say this being based in Belfast which is pretty well removed from London.

So, to address the main question; I would recommend University learning. However, pick what you want to do carefully and make your own decisions based on that. Put bluntly:
STEM subjects - If you are competent and you do study there's a good job somewhere at the end.
Art & Humanities - I think it's still worthwhile but it's going to be harder to find a great job and there will be more geographic restrictions on where those great jobs are likely to be, along with more competition for them.

Mr Toad

Bletchleyite · 12 Dec 2016

I'd say that nowadays it isn't worth doing university as a by-default "rite of passage" - you can get a similar experience by taking an apprenticeship and living with other apprentices away from your family - but it is still worth doing it if you feel it'll help you into your chosen career, or even if it'll be neutral to your career but you really enjoy the experience and be developed as a person, considering that while money is important it isn't the be-all and end-all of everything. (Plenty of people buy expensive premium cars costing more than a three-year degree, for example - neither is necessarily a waste of money if you really want it and are happy with the financial implications of it).

FWIW I'm presently doing (last module!) an OU Open Degree for no other reason than that I wanted to, it's my second degree - though with the new higher fees I doubt I would have done.

meridian2 · 12 Dec 2016

There's a lot of emphasis these days, by prospective employers, on experience, and invariably, experience trumps qualifications. That's why many people place a lot more emphasis on work experience courses than going to university.
That's not saying higher education has suddenly become redundant, but more often than not, you end up with a higher debt, little experience in the field of your study and more exams.

DarloRich · 12 Dec 2016

Badger89 said:
There's a lot of emphasis these days, by prospective employers, on experience, and invariably, experience trumps qualifications. That's why many people place a lot more emphasis on work experience courses than going to university.
That's not saying higher education has suddenly become redundant, but more often than not, you end up with a higher debt, little experience in the field of your study and more exams.

yet in the professions access isnt possible , in the main, without a degree.

Tetchytyke · 12 Dec 2016

Badger89 said:
There's a lot of emphasis these days, by prospective employers, on experience, and invariably, experience trumps qualifications.

As with everything in life, it depends what industry you're wanting to enter.

In my experience, the value of a degree has changed. It used to be a distinguishing factor, but now it is the minimum entry criterion. If you go to University and think the degree is enough to get you to the top then you will be disappointed. You will need experience and extra-curricular development, and lots of it. But without a degree you won't even get in the door.

There are some industries where you can start at the bottom and work up through apprenticeships and on-the-job training. There are some industries, even, where this is a better choice than a degree. But in general to even get a foot in the door of the professions you need a degree now, as a bare minimum. My wife is a clinical psychologist and to get her job the minimum entrance qualification is the equivalent of a PhD.

meridian2 · 12 Dec 2016

Yes I admit it was a bit of a loose generalisation, but it does help if you've worked, or volunteered, in the field before you apply for a similar job.

Abpj17 · 12 Dec 2016

it depends what you want to do...but yes

I consciously chose a university that wasn't expensive in terms of living costs (Keele); I'm old enough to have been on a hybrid of low grants/loans/no tuition fees. Housing - especially shared - is still affordable outside central london.

I picked very employable subjects - Maths and French. I wouldn't say I use either subject literally on day to day basis. But the skills - numeracy, logic, art of writing etc. are all invaluable.

About half way through a 30 year mortgage, the outstanding amount is now only 1.4x or so my salary compared to the dizzy heights of 4.5x at the start. Beyond housing, by far my single largest outgoing is my season ticket at around 5k

trainmania100 · 13 Dec 2016

I dont think university is worth it. Whether you go to university or not, you are still going to have as much difficulty getting a job as everyone else.

shredder1 · 13 Dec 2016

I was 42 when I went to university and gained a Bsc (hons), an Msc and PGCE and even at that age, its certainly paid me over the last 20 years, my son gained an English degree and went on to obtain his law degree, at 32 hes just in the process of buying his second house in London. Kids today are still in with a chance providing they study the job markets first and study for related degree`s.

atillathehunn · 13 Dec 2016

I think there's been a general inflation to the point that a BA/BSc isn't worth much, rather these have become an extension of A-levels. They are a necessary but not sufficient condition. Access now to higher level or more interesting jobs is predicated on getting a Masters or even higher degree. Friends in the Humanities area have confirmed this.

TheEdge · 13 Dec 2016

atillathehunn said:
I think there's been a general inflation to the point that a BA/BSc isn't worth much, rather these have become an extension of A-levels. They are a necessary but not sufficient condition. Access now to higher level or more interesting jobs is predicated on getting a Masters or even higher degree. Friends in the Humanities area have confirmed this.

I think thats true more for the humanities and social sciences but a lot less for STEM. I did a Geography BSc, which I would consider STEM as the BSc doesn't include human geography at all, it was all Earth sciences and statistical analysis thereof. People off my course seem to have found it relatively easy to get into the related jobs they wanted with just the BSc.

Bletchleyite · 13 Dec 2016

TheEdge said:
I think thats true more for the humanities and social sciences but a lot less for STEM. I did a Geography BSc, which I would consider STEM as the BSc doesn't include human geography at all, it was all Earth sciences and statistical analysis thereof. People off my course seem to have found it relatively easy to get into the related jobs they wanted with just the BSc.

And then you have subjects like BSc Computer Science which are basically vocational.

Tetchytyke · 13 Dec 2016

TheEdge said:
I think thats true more for the humanities and social sciences but a lot less for STEM.

I think it depends which bit of STEM you're looking at, as well. Certainly with the marine sciences, if you don't have a first class honours then really you need at least a merit at Masters level. Engineering friends, on the other hand, are fine with a 2:1 honours and chartered status, which is granted on experience not on academic qualifications.

Puffing Devil · 13 Dec 2016

We now have too many students entering university. In the 1970s many simply would not have got a place and would have entered the world of work; some at 16, starting an apprenticeship, though the strong engineering base to support those has gone.

Further and Higher education should continue to be vocational with day release and distance learning. It should be free to all, providing progression is successful.

Unfortunately studying non-vocational classes at university is now a luxury that can only be afforded by the rich. The exception possibly being those that seek to go on to professional exams after an unrelated degree- law or accountancy being an example. However, there are learning paths for both of those that offer learning while working that will lead to the same qualification at less expense.

My advice to my children will be to do a degree with clear career outcomes, or don't study at all. We no longer have the luxury of full grants and paid fees. University now needs to be viewed as a career investment. Sad, though reflective of the current economy and the policies of successive governments on both sides of the divide.

It's ironic that the majority of senior leaders in this country benefitted from a fully state-funded education and now seek to deny that to many.

Senex · 13 Dec 2016

atillathehunn said:
I think there's been a general inflation to the point that a BA/BSc isn't worth much, rather these have become an extension of A-levels. They are a necessary but not sufficient condition. Access now to higher level or more interesting jobs is predicated on getting a Masters or even higher degree. Friends in the Humanities area have confirmed this.

I think you're right, but it's something that has been going on for years. The need just to seem employable/suitable for articles moved up to a need for School Certificate/GCE, which then moved up to a requirement for A-Levels, and then a first degree, and now indeed all too often a higher degree of some type. How far is it more people competing for fewer jobs and how far is it grade inflation, so that employers demand ever higher qualifications because the lower ones no longer sort people out enough for them? (Even when only some 6 or 7% of us went to university in what is now the distant past, it was not necessary to get three distinctions at A-Level to get into a good university.)

RichmondCommu · 13 Dec 2016

I say that unless you are able to gain a 2:1 (and I regard that as the bare minimum) then frankly I think you are wasting your time. I would also argue that depending on what you choose to study you don't necessarily have to do a Masters. Only managing to get into a rubbish University won't help either; I would argue that in that instance you are much better off looking for an apprenticeship.

Bletchleyite · 13 Dec 2016

trainmania100 said:
I dont think university is worth it. Whether you go to university or not, you are still going to have as much difficulty getting a job as everyone else.

I would say that that oversimplifies the situation. As a graduate you are likely to have access to most of the same jobs as non-graduates (give or take the odd few from "being overqualified") plus a few more. How many more depends on your choice of career.

Domh245 · 13 Dec 2016

Arctic Troll said:
I think it depends which bit of STEM you're looking at, as well. Certainly with the marine sciences, if you don't have a first class honours then really you need at least a merit at Masters level. Engineering friends, on the other hand, are fine with a 2:1 honours and chartered status, which is granted on experience not on academic qualifications.

FWIW, getting Chartered status from the IMechE requires education to a masters level (be it MEng, BEng+MEng, or BEng+on the job experience) and a few years of experience (in order to be able to assess your competence in several areas such as ethics, management, presentation, etc) but as you point out, your grade isn't as important - although having a higher grade helps when it comes to getting jobs, which is the first (and according to our careers department, hardest) step in getting experience of course.

Additionally, I would argue that with STEM subjects Russell group status isn't as much of a deciding factor as it is with non STEM subjects. For example, Oxford Brookes isn't a brilliant university by most guides, but if you want to get into F1, it's the place to be.

underbank · 13 Dec 2016

DarloRich said:
yet in the professions access isnt possible , in the main, without a degree.

Many professions do have a non graduate entry route. "Chartered" accountancy is one of them, in fact some of the major accountancy firms have ramped up their non graduate route in the last few years.

Is higher education still worth it?

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