Chris Grayling states: 'ASLEF promise years of industrial action'

highdyke · 12 Dec 2016

At least according to Chris Grayling Tory Secretary for transport when he met with Labour affiliated ASLEF...

My ministerial and official team and I have been working hard since we took over our jobs just under 5 months ago to try to find a way through this. But the unions appear to have little interest in resolving the dispute unless the management cave in totally to their demands. These are not just to stop the current modernisation process, but to start reversing 30 years of working practice changes right across the country.

When I met the General Secretary of ASLEF soon after my appointment, with virtually his first breath he promised me “10 years of industrial action.” I have therefore believed it better to avoid direct ministerial involvement in negotiations during the autumn, as my involvement would make the issue even more political than it is.

Following their appearance on the Today programme a week ago, I wrote to the unions offering to become involved and meet them for talks if they called off their planned strikes. They have not yet replied to the letters.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/southern-rail-transport-secretary-message-to-passengers

RailUK Forums

SkinnyDave · 12 Dec 2016

This is not a biased press release here not biased at all...

Do you believe everything newspapers print too?

Actually just read sime of your previous posts, you clearly do so scrap that question lol

DarloRich · 12 Dec 2016

for balance I will point out that is the view of Mr Grayling, a Conservative minister, and does not offer an independent or objective viewpoint of the situation. The truth, as always, will be somewhere between the two positions.

Tetchytyke · 12 Dec 2016

Failing Grayling said it, so it must be true.

It's not like he's never lied befo....oh.

But then Grayling is the man who claimed £70,000 in four years for his "essential" second home in Pimlico, just the 17 miles from his main home in Ashtead. So what would he know about ethics.

class 9 · 12 Dec 2016

What nonsense, a while back apparently the RMT & GTR came to an agreement, similar to what had been aggreed on Scotrail only for the DFT to stop it.
This dispute is the start of a government backed attempt to break the unions.

highdyke · 12 Dec 2016

SkinnyDave said:
This is not a biased press release here not biased at all...

Do you believe everything newspapers print too?

Actually just read sime of your previous posts, you clearly do so scrap that question lol

I won't be commenting if I believe it or not, I read all the papers, and take everything everyone says with a pinch of salt.

It's a discussion point and it's worked well so far.

DarloRich · 12 Dec 2016

Clearly all sides need to sit down, discuss and do a deal. That means give and take from all sides, no pre conditions AND perhaps most importantly, government will to allow that to happen.

It is the final point that I feel is missing and the point glossed over by the DfT. They control how this is playing out.

Starmill · 12 Dec 2016

The title, or the OP ought to state that this is the Transport Secretary's message to passengers. It's a bit unclear.

highdyke · 12 Dec 2016

class 9 said:
What nonsense, a while back apparently the RMT & GTR came to an agreement, similar to what had been aggreed on Scotrail only for the DFT to stop it.
This dispute is the start of a government backed attempt to break the unions.

Or the unions attempt to break the government?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Starmill said:
The title, or the OP ought to state that this is the Transport Secretary's message to passengers. It's a bit unclear.

Fair point , I'll change it! I would have put it in the DOO thread, but this throws up wider issues.

Robertj21a · 12 Dec 2016

Even if it is a very biased statement from the Transport Secretary, it incorporates some specific criticisms of ASLEF (in-)action which they will, hopefully, now see fit to fully explain or refute.

Dave1987 · 12 Dec 2016

Robertj21a said:
Even if it is a very biased statement from the Transport Secretary, it incorporates some specific criticisms of ASLEF (in-)action which they will, hopefully, now see fit to fully explain or refute.

If they did refute it the right wing media would not print it. Just like Mr Wilkinson did not withdraw his statements about having "punch ups" with drivers or that we get "fire breaks" etc etc. Having read about the current situation with regards to prisons which he was in charge of for many years then one has to be a bit cautious with his rhetoric here. I mean it took the prisons officers to have an ad-hoc strike before the current Home Secretary did anything to do with prisons even thought the Prisons officers association had been telling them for ages and ages the situation was dire. Even then the first think the government did was go to court instead of addressing their concerns. Shows what the mentality of Mrs Mays' government is. Along with the whole Brexit saga this government is a complete shambles!

swt_passenger · 12 Dec 2016

class 9 said:
What nonsense, a while back apparently the RMT & GTR came to an agreement, similar to what had been aggreed on Scotrail only for the DFT to stop it.
This dispute is the start of a government backed attempt to break the unions.

Isn't the Scotrail agreement what was already happening on Southern, so it would have been no change at all as far as GTR is concerned. Why ever would they agree to 'no change at all' as the TU's opening proposal?

zaax · 12 Dec 2016

Just pay them a proper wage for the area eg £70-80 for London. Other rates of pay for other regions

Robertj21a · 12 Dec 2016

Dave1987 said:
If they did refute it the right wing media would not print it. Just like Mr Wilkinson did not withdraw his statements about having "punch ups" with drivers or that we get "fire breaks" etc etc. Having read about the current situation with regards to prisons which he was in charge of for many years then one has to be a bit cautious with his rhetoric here. I mean it took the prisons officers to have an ad-hoc strike before the current Home Secretary did anything to do with prisons even thought the Prisons officers association had been telling them for ages and ages the situation was dire. Even then the first think the government did was go to court instead of addressing their concerns. Shows what the mentality of Mrs Mays' government is. Along with the whole Brexit saga this government is a complete shambles!

Apart from disagreeing with much of your off-topic ramblings, are you suggesting that ASLEF don't need to respond to some very specific criticisms ?

highdyke · 12 Dec 2016

Dave1987 said:
If they did refute it the right wing media would not print it. Just like Mr Wilkinson did not withdraw his statements about having "punch ups" with drivers or that we get "fire breaks" etc etc. Having read about the current situation with regards to prisons which he was in charge of for many years then one has to be a bit cautious with his rhetoric here. I mean it took the prisons officers to have an ad-hoc strike before the current Home Secretary did anything to do with prisons even thought the Prisons officers association had been telling them for ages and ages the situation was dire. Even then the first think the government did was go to court instead of addressing their concerns. Shows what the mentality of Mrs Mays' government is. Along with the whole Brexit saga this government is a complete shambles!

Nothing to do with no DOO anywhere press releases by the RMT/ASLEF, obvious political bias especially toward Mr Corbyn, etc.

I put it to you, that ASLEF top brass has planned to make life so difficult for the government/TOCs that nationalisation becomes a reality despite the wishes of the democratically elected government?

Tetchytyke · 12 Dec 2016

swt_passenger said:
Isn't the Scotrail agreement what was already happening on Southern

No.

highdyke said:
I put it to you, that ASLEF top brass has planned to make life so difficult for the government/TOCs that nationalisation becomes a reality despite the wishes of the democratically elected government?

Then you'd be talking out of something round and inappropriate.

Wilkinson said what the "democratically elected" (I don't remember voting for Cruella...) government are aiming for. People dismissed it as a "gaffe". It wasn't.

Shaw S Hunter · 12 Dec 2016

highdyke said:
Nothing to do with no DOO anywhere press releases by the RMT/ASLEF, obvious political bias especially toward Mr Corbyn, etc.

I put it to you, that ASLEF top brass has planned to make life so difficult for the government/TOCs that nationalisation becomes a reality despite the wishes of the democratically elected government?

Oh the irony! The way franchises are now designed to allow for detailed meddling by the DfT, way above what happened in BR days, the current railway is effectively nationalised anyway! It's just that the current balkanised set-up is horribly inefficient compared to a state owned enterprise. But finance for infrastructure has been easier to authorise. Which evil do you prefer?

Dave1987 · 12 Dec 2016

Robertj21a said:
Apart from disagreeing with much of your off-topic ramblings, are you suggesting that ASLEF don't need to respond to some very specific criticisms ?

No, I said that even if they did respond would the likes of the Telegraph even print it? I read there article on the Home Secretary' comments today in the Telegraph. It was full of comments and rhetoric from Tory MPs about those nasty unions etc etc with a tiny one sentence quote from ASLEF right at the bottom. So I wasn't surprised to find out this was a Telegraph "exclusive". That is why I find myself reading the Independent or the Guardian now.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

highdyke said:
Nothing to do with no DOO anywhere press releases by the RMT/ASLEF, obvious political bias especially toward Mr Corbyn, etc.

I put it to you, that ASLEF top brass has planned to make life so difficult for the government/TOCs that nationalisation becomes a reality despite the wishes of the democratically elected government?

I will never ever ever vote for the Labour party while Corbyn is leader so don't play that card against me! After Wilkinson made those comments at that meeting all those months ago and refused to revoke them, the government where clearly wanting a fight with ASLEF. Any thoughts on that?

highdyke · 12 Dec 2016

ASLEF are closely connected to Corbyn, not you Dave.

Wilkinson made the comments because railway costs are out of control and in response to statements by the Unions. The government are just looking for more efficient ways to run the railways right across the board.

LateThanNever · 12 Dec 2016

class 9 said:
What nonsense, a while back apparently the RMT & GTR came to an agreement, similar to what had been aggreed on Scotrail only for the DFT to stop it.
This dispute is the start of a government backed attempt to break the unions.

An interesting rumour. according to a throw away comment by journalist on last night's Radio 4, Grayling is considering a 'Reagan solution' - ie sacking strikers. I doubt it would be a realistic tactic but in a government full of them Grayling is a complete sh**. One has only to admire the complete and utter mess he has made of the court system and prisons whilst Minister of 'Justice' to know that he is ruthless, used to winning and makes evidence free decisions.
Any rail union would do well to be prepared for this sort of ugly battle - and particularly be aware whether safety rules can be suspended or altered in times of dire emergency.
I've no doubt Grayling considers the rail unions are the only ones left preventing the neoliberal nirvanah, so I think it likely he'll be throwing everything at it.

Dave1987 · 12 Dec 2016

highdyke said:
ASLEF are closely connected to Corbyn, not you Dave.

Wilkinson made the comments because railway costs are out of control and in response to statements by the Unions.

*Bangs his head against the desk*

Wow so you believe simply because I am a member of ASLEF that means I have to support Corbyn? You are aware that when I visited the polling both in 2015 I wasn't accompanied by an ASLEF reps with a gun pointed to my head when marking a X on the voting slip?

So you supporting what he said?

highdyke · 12 Dec 2016

Dave1987 said:
*Bangs his head against the desk*

Wow so you believe simply because I am a member of ASLEF that means I have to support Corbyn? You are aware that when I visited the polling both in 2015 I wasn't accompanied by an ASLEF reps with a gun pointed to my head when marking a X on the voting slip?

No, and thought I'd just made it clear I didn't.

Dave1987 said:
So you supporting what he said?

Not sure about the muppets bit, but the railways should be more efficient yes, mainly for the sake of users of the system and getting new lines open.

Dave1987 · 12 Dec 2016

highdyke said:
Not sure about the muppets bit, but the railways should be more efficient yes, mainly for the sake of users of the system and getting new lines open.

So what about the whole £60k a year for a 3 day week nonsense? Getting "fire breaks" nonsense?

So apart from the whole DOO debate where else should this efficiency come from with regards to drivers then?

furnessvale · 12 Dec 2016

All I can say that the last people to take on a Conservative female Prime Minister didn't come out of it very well.

Some similarities, both were/are heavily unionised, both led by very left wing union leaders, and both were/are industries basically surplus to the needs of the country.

On the other side both Prime Ministers look to be tough cookies.

Tough call, no matter who is right or wrong.

highdyke · 12 Dec 2016

Dave1987 said:
So what about the whole £60k a year for a 3 day week nonsense? Getting "fire breaks" nonsense?

Firebreaks I assume means personal needs breaks. Most drivers are on 60k a year with overtime and some approaching it as basic pay, a few are on over 80k, some even hit £100k.

The whole thing is obviously an exaggeration for a cause, rather like ASLEF pretending they are still working class. I support it no more than some people who like to present they are struggling.

Dave1987 said:
So apart from the whole DOO debate where else should this efficiency come from with regards to drivers then?

Everywhere. Value for money is a must.

Dave1987 · 12 Dec 2016

highdyke said:
Firebreaks I assume means personal needs breaks. Most drivers are on 60k a year with overtime and some approaching it as basic pay, a few are on over 80k, some even hit £100k.

The whole thing is obviously a exaggeration for a cause, rather like ASLEF pretending they are still working class. I support it no more than some people who like to present they are struggling.

Well that tells me you really don't know what you are on about. Most drivers are not on that at all. Suggest you look on here http://www.aslef.org.uk/information/102222/102225/companies/ to get your facts straight there.

Everywhere. Value for money is a must.

And there was me thinking you would come up with some detail of where this efficiency was coming from.

highdyke · 12 Dec 2016

Dave1987 said:
Well that tells me you really don't know what you are on about. Most drivers are not on that at all. Suggest you look on here http://www.aslef.org.uk/information/102222/102225/companies/ to get your facts straight there.

Those figures don't include Sundays and overtime. Take ten random drivers and I'll put money on the average is 60k.

Cross country: £57,674. Might as well call it 60 really? 5 weeks of leave, plus 10 days floating. 4 day week...not bad really is it? Working class it is not.

WelshBluebird · 12 Dec 2016

furnessvale said:
industries basically surplus to the needs of the country.

I'd hardly say the railways are "surplus to the needs of the country", especially in the London commuter area.

EM2 · 12 Dec 2016

furnessvale said:
Some similarities, both were/are heavily unionised, both led by very left wing union leaders, and both were/are industries basically surplus to the needs of the country.

Good luck trying to run a modern industrialised nation with no trains.

Dave1987 · 12 Dec 2016

highdyke said:
Those figures don't include Sundays and overtime. Take ten random drivers and I'll put money on the average is 60k.

Again you need to get your facts straight here before you start making massive assumptions like you have done. Virtually all on the higher salaries on there have Sundays as part of the working week! Well if you put money on it then you would lose that money. This actually tells me you really don't actually understand what you are talking about at all. And also explains why you can't name any of these efficiency's you are on about.

Chris Grayling states: 'ASLEF promise years of industrial action'

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