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Scotrail Franchise - Abellio

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47271

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Very good, and let's hope that this helps reduce the noise around the subject of Scotrail's performance.
 
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Failed Unit

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Hopefully that'll keep the passengers happy. It's a nice gesture that recognises frustration and hopefully eases tensions a bit.

I think most passengers would rather get what they paid for :)

One thing I have noticed is the SNP often quoting, "the service is better than the average England gets"

I always find that odd as it implies a race to the bottom and England has got GTR seriously lowering the average.

It is a "Your service isn't as good as it used to be", "It is better than you get in England", "That is OK then, as long as we are better than the English who cares if we lower our own higher standards...."
 

takno

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Labour: you should give rail users a £2m discount!
SNP: ok we'll give rail users a £3m discount!
Labour councillor: that £3m would have supported a lot of bus services for our poorer and rural communities!

I'm not even making it up.

More accurate would be that Labour suggested a policy (which would have been contentious in Labour anyway) of giving all rail users a discount for the next year. The SNP decided to spend 50% more giving arbitrary discounts to commuters, which is of no use to most of the people who have had their late evening journeys completely destroyed for 6 months. Some people from Labour, who may well not have agreed with the Labour policy anyway, then objected to what was basically a completely different policy.

And then somebody came on here making out like that was unreasonable.
 

HowardGWR

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More accurate would be that Labour suggested a policy (which would have been contentious in Labour anyway) of giving all rail users a discount for the next year. The SNP decided to spend 50% more giving arbitrary discounts to commuters, which is of no use to most of the people who have had their late evening journeys completely destroyed for 6 months. Some people from Labour, who may well not have agreed with the Labour policy anyway, then objected to what was basically a completely different policy.

And then somebody came on here making out like that was unreasonable.
No, just Scot Lab all at sea. (Sassenach neutral in this).
 

Mordac

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Thanks for everyone who pitched in to answer my questions about the refurbishment. While sadly I no longer live in Scotland, I still try to follow the goings on, especially about the railway, and that's really helped.

So, to clarify, is it the case that first class will be removed from all of the 158s that currently have it, so that at the end of the cascades and new stock arrivals, the only Scotrail stock with first class will be the HSTs, (some of) the 170s, and the 385s?
 

scotraildriver

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The thing is here,and in the press currently, is nothing but political shots at each other. I have worked for scotrail under BR, national express, Firstgroup and now Abellio. NOTHING has changed. The fleet is almost the same. The people are the same. The service levels are better than they've ever been. Using the same fleet. The only difference is that the fleet is utterly screwed like never before. There is no slack. If something breaks it causes carnage. Passenger numbers have massively increased but the trains are the same as 15 years ago. Until new stock is in service we will try our best. PPM targets are higher now than ever. Queen St was shut for 5 months and performance dropped 0.5%. I think that was a good result. The constant bashing of ScotRail in the press is becoming tedious to say the least. What can we actually do?
 

47271

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The constant bashing of ScotRail in the press is becoming tedious to say the least. What can we actually do?

There's nothing you can do other than to keep running the service and hope the politicians and media focus on something real and that's relevant to the majority of the Scottish population.

The story is on life support, even yesterday's Scotsman couldn't avoid admitting...
The figure for the period was 0.2 points up on the same time last year
...and I don't remember us being in crisis last autumn.

It just needs something else to kick off like a police or social work outrage and the stirrers will move on. Part of the problem is that they haven't had anything better to do for the last few months, or they haven't had the wit to think about a more substantial story. I fear that it may be the latter.

There's an ancient Chinese proverb that says: Sit by the river long enough and eventually the bodies of your enemies will float by.
 

route:oxford

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Labour: you should give rail users a £2m discount!
SNP: ok we'll give rail users a £3m discount!
Labour councillor: that £3m would have supported a lot of bus services for our poorer and rural communities!

I'm not even making it up.

Surprisingly Dozey Derek is correct on this one.

If you freeze the fares one year, after 10 years or so there would be a fairly considerable income gap.

So a £3M single payout is longer-term a better decision.
 

ScotrailINV

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Have the issues with the sockets been fixed? The last one I took back in August from INV to ABD, the guard said that there had been a lot of issues with the sockets hence why they were out of use during my trip.

Had one on a return trip from Inverness to Golspie last weekend and the USB sockets were all working at the seats we were sat at.

Also to note the onboard WiFi on the refurb sets now has a 'multimedia' section on the landing page, which was mentioned somewhere in the Franchise Agreement. In it were sections for audiobooks and content from NowTV (TV boxsets) to watch, although it wasn't functioning last week. I presume the content is remotely downloaded or loaded in depot and then streamed from a local media server on board.
 
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92002

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More accurate would be that Labour suggested a policy (which would have been contentious in Labour anyway) of giving all rail users a discount for the next year. The SNP decided to spend 50% more giving arbitrary discounts to commuters, which is of no use to most of the people who have had their late evening journeys completely destroyed for 6 months. Some people from Labour, who may well not have agreed with the Labour policy anyway, then objected to what was basically a completely different policy.

And then somebody came on here making out like that was unreasonable.

The late evening train cancellations are to allow electrification to arrive sooner. No problem with short term pain allowing long term gain. The passengers on these trains are minimal to say the least and are bustistuted.

However let's not try and let it spoil a good soundbite or a story in the Scotsman.

It's all part of the Scot-rail/Network Rail Alliance. Where no compensation is paid to the TOC for the cancellation of trains. Making the cost of electrification cheaper.
 

takno

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The late evening train cancellations are to allow electrification to arrive sooner. No problem with short term pain allowing long term gain. The passengers on these trains are minimal to say the least and are bustistuted.

However let's not try and let it spoil a good soundbite or a story in the Scotsman.

It's all part of the Scot-rail/Network Rail Alliance. Where no compensation is paid to the TOC for the cancellation of trains. Making the cost of electrification cheaper.

I'm not suggesting that they shouldn't be cancelling the evening trains. I fully understand why they need to do it to electrify. I'm merely saying that those passengers are the ones who are being shoved onto buses for a journey to take twice as long, and now the SNP are really rubbing it in by giving *all* the compensation to people who've basically been able to get a train almost every time they've needed one.
 

jingsmonty

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See my bold; I thought the seats were to be all at tables in order to align them with the windows, the photograph shows some airline seating.

The seating layout is the same as the previously refurbished Inverness 158s - bit strange that the Haymarket units weren't done 1st, they are in a terrible state! Does look a lot brighter than before, but not exactly a comprehensive refurbishment - no change to traction package, etc. Also, they have those cursed 'grammer' seats that FGW have on their HSTs - better than the Haymarket unit seating, but hardly comfortable - strange seat pitch (like being forced to sit in the 'crash position'), very high backed and not much more cushioning than a wooden bench!

Personally, I prefer Airline seating (if I'm on my own) as, being 6' 2", I find they have more legroom.

My fear is that our refurbished HSTs will have the same seating...
 

cf111

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The seating layout is the same as the previously refurbished Inverness 158s - bit strange that the Haymarket units weren't done 1st, they are in a terrible state! Does look a lot brighter than before, but not exactly a comprehensive refurbishment - no change to traction package, etc. Also, they have those cursed 'grammer' seats that FGW have on their HSTs - better than the Haymarket unit seating, but hardly comfortable - strange seat pitch (like being forced to sit in the 'crash position'), very high backed and not much more cushioning than a wooden bench!

Personally, I prefer Airline seating (if I'm on my own) as, being 6' 2", I find they have more legroom.

My fear is that our refurbished HSTs will have the same seating...

The HSTs aren't getting new seats when they come from GWR.

I'm a similar height to you and find them very comfortable personally.
 

Chrism20

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This is getting boring now, Just firing up Scotsman articles, are you the journo?

I agree that it's getting boring.

If it isn't the Scotsman news desk it's a party political broadcast on behalf of the SNP or Labour.
 

47271

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I'm convinced that Good Point is Dalton, it's the only way that he can get hits on his transport news items. [emoji38]
 

route:oxford

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The HSTs aren't getting new seats when they come from GWR.

I'm a similar height to you and find them very comfortable personally.

Perhaps, when individuals are expressing their view of the seating accommodation on any unit, it should be railforums policy that they should also disclose:-

Height
Weight
Inside Leg
Waist
Chest
& Neck measurements

All in metric.

Only with this information is it possible to put the posters view into context.
 

Mordac

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Perhaps, when individuals are expressing their view of the seating accommodation on any unit, it should be railforums policy that they should also disclose:-

Height
Weight
Inside Leg
Waist
Chest
& Neck measurements

All in metric.

Only with this information is it possible to put the posters view into context.

Can we start by applying this rule to bramling and his endless moans about Thameslink and Great Northern?
 

Rhydgaled

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The seating layout is the same as the previously refurbished Inverness 158s
And this is the promised 'scenic refurb'? Bit of a let down compared to the plan posted here which shows table bays the whole length of the carriage. Airline seating has its benifits but, without designing the window spacing to fit or going crazy with legroom, is it possible to avoid giving some passengers a solid pillar to look at?

Also, they have those cursed 'grammer' seats that FGW have on their HSTs - better than the Haymarket unit seating, but hardly comfortable - strange seat pitch (like being forced to sit in the 'crash position'), very high backed and not much more cushioning than a wooden bench!

Personally, I prefer Airline seating (if I'm on my own) as, being 6' 2", I find they have more legroom.
I'm probably at least that myself and find that Arriva Trains Wales' 150s, 153s and Pacers are terrible in airline seating. Only the table bays really have room for my knees, but I don't think I've found a table which aligns with the windows on those units. The legroom in airline seating in ATW 158s and FirstGWR IC125s is just about ok, but I would like a little more really. The 175/180 layout is the only airline seating I've sampled that completely satisfies in terms of legroom (but the seats are a bit hard for myy liking). I still prefer a table bay with good window alignment if travelling with a friend or family member though (I do go for airline seating when alone; unless the train is quiet enough to have a table to myself).
 

devon_metro

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And this is the promised 'scenic refurb'? Bit of a let down compared to the plan posted here which shows table bays the whole length of the carriage. Airline seating has its benifits but, without designing the window spacing to fit or going crazy with legroom, is it possible to avoid giving some passengers a solid pillar to look at?

On 158s, yes. two rows, or one bay of four fit a window and everyone gets a view. At least on the original BR seating, I assume the Grammar seating is configured in a similar fashion.
 

Butts

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Late Night Services from Edinburgh to Dunblane are terminating at Polmont where you join a coach for the remainder of the journey.

The coach driver was not impressed that there were no Abellio Staff to coordinate proceedings. The Coach was full and the driver told the remaining passengers they would have to use the intercom on the platform to summon a reserve coach.

Luckily I was up to speed and off the train and first on the coach tonight to travel the short hop to FKG.

No Abellio staff at FKG either, no ticket check on the Train or Bus so another free journey for many.
 

XC90

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Scottish Labour are, like the rest of Labour, hopeless and beyond redemption. We should just ignore them. They are, quite rightly in my mind, relegated to third place.[/QUOTE]

Here here. They are straw clutchers of the highest order. Railways are an easy target and for Dugdale to choose this area to try and win votes, smacks of desperation. Especially with the huge modernisation plan of the system in full swing. Scotland's Railway is doing just fine and has a great future ahead!
 

Clansman

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How many 170s have now been refurbished and whats being done?

Not had a refurbed one yet, is it just seat covers, carpets and power sockets?

I don't have exact number of refurbished units but I do know that they're mostly finished. All post 2001 units have been completed. Only the majority of 1999 units (405-420 & 470-471) need done and with the exception of additional plug sockets for the rest of the fleet in standard class, that's it all completed.

How come the 156s are only getting a partial refurb (new PIS, Saltire Flooring and new toilet)? All the old seat covers and tables still remain.
 
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Failed Unit

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The political element of this is interesting as we don't really know what everyone bid.

We know the winning bid proposed returning 170s, some have already gone. The Scottish government have since done a deal to retain more of them and release 158s instead- such hero's.

What we will never know is if the 2nd place bidders bid is actually now better value for money as no 170s would have left the franchise in the first place?

I find it frustrating how governments accept a franchise then absorb themselves of responsibility when the bid the accepted doesnt work out. (This applies to the UK as well with GTR). The resources are streatched to thinly at the moment. Transport Scotland created and award the tender so they are just as liable.

I left Scotland in the first few months of the franchise. The 170s were getting missed even then.
 

47271

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with the exception of additional plug sockets for the rest of the fleet in standard class.

It looks to me that they're going through the ones needing the full refurb first before moving on to putting power in the first batch of Saltires, there's still a lot of apparently refreshed units running around with no power in Standard.

Does anyone know why they did that first lot without sockets, it's not like it was that long ago?

Thankfully the really raddled original interiors are very much in the minority now, some of them had become shockingly threadbare.
 

Altnabreac

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The political element of this is interesting as we don't really know what everyone bid.

We know the winning bid proposed returning 170s, some have already gone. The Scottish government have since done a deal to retain more of them and release 158s instead- such hero's.

What we will never know is if the 2nd place bidders bid is actually now better value for money as no 170s would have left the franchise in the first place?

I find it frustrating how governments accept a franchise then absorb themselves of responsibility when the bid the accepted doesnt work out. (This applies to the UK as well with GTR). The resources are streatched to thinly at the moment. Transport Scotland created and award the tender so they are just as liable.

I left Scotland in the first few months of the franchise. The 170s were getting missed even then.

My understanding is that none of the bidders wanted to lose the initial batch of 170s and they all preferred to keep them until the 385s (or equivalent) were ready.

However Southern had signed a deal for the first batch of trains with Eversholt before the franchise was awarded and refused to allow them to stay in Scotland.

The fault (if such it is) appears to lie with Transport Scotland for not insisting the previous First Scotrail franchise agree leases beyond the end of the franchise and guaranteeing such leases.

However if you do too much of those sort of deals you get into over specifying new franchises and stifling bid innovation so it is a difficult line to draw. Everyone realised though that the combination of 170s leaving and Borders line opening was going to lead to a short term shortage of DMU stock.
 

Clansman

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It looks to me that they're going through the ones needing the full refurb first before moving on to putting power in the first batch of Saltires, there's still a lot of apparently refreshed units running around with no power in Standard.

Does anyone know why they did that first lot without sockets, it's not like it was that long ago?

My guess would be due to franchise commitments. Given that the 1999 units only started to be refurbished under Abellio earlier this year, it would make sense to begin inserting plug points in the process then proceed on with the rest of the fleet like you said. I'll never understand why First didn't retain the plug sockets on the 5 cascaded Hull Trains units (170/3), instead of covering them with metal panels.
 
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