My experiences using Loco2

One limitation that I can see is that for international travel, although in Advanced Options one can specify the route (e.g. via a particular station) it does not take into account that the UK is an island and that, rather than take a high priced trip on Eurostar, it might be better or faster to combine a cross channel ferry with rail travel.

As an example when I search from Newhaven Town to Nice via Dieppe one way and avoiding London, instead of routeing me to Dieppe on the ferry (or suggesting that option) it does first route me to London St. Pancras, on Eurostar to Paris thence via Paris to Dieppe before continuing the journey to Nice.

Dieppe to Nice on Loco2 on the day I chose 19th Jan was €174.60 (first class), and the total price via London and Eurostar was €369.30 one way. Furthermore, it had me staying overnight in Dieppe as it took all day to get there from Newhaven.

When I searched on the 20th on Voyages-SNCF for Dieppe-Nice I was offered fares ranging from €94 (non-modifiable) and even one train at €83 (modifiable).

In fact I can travel on the 20th Newhaven-Dieppe on the ferry for £20 then book on SNCF. A journey from Newhaven to Nice could cost me as little as little as some €115 rather than the €369 quoted.

Loco2 has me travelling from Dieppe on the 20th on the 7:13 AM train (12 hours with connections) whereas for example if I took the 10AM train (only 10 hours with connections) I am offered first class for €92 (semi flexible). The 7:00 train, taking 9 hours with First Class at €117 would be a better selection than the 7:13.

If Loco2 search could take into account possible ferry routes (foot passenger prices are I think quite easy to calculate) that would be really useful. If not, it could determine that a ferry is potentially available (showing it as an option) and allow calculation of just the train fares leaving the user to check on ferry sailings and prices.

I know it's a minefield, but the ability to use (as an option) cheaper non-modifiable and non-refundable tickets (clearly marked as such) would be useful. Some fares can possibly only be booked on the local operator's site using (as in this example) the online French SNCF site voyages-sncf.com, but savings can be significant.

In the example I chose (selecting a random future date) the €174.60 is a non-changeable non-reimbursable "TGV Promotion" ticket valid only on one particular train (like a UK advance), yet apparently this is not disclosed.

A button to "Modify Search" rather than using the back button would also be useful.

I'd welcome Loco2's comments on all this, including why the 7:13 train was offered instead of the 7:00 train which is 3 hours faster.

globetrotter said:

I'd welcome Loco2's comments on all this, including why the 7:13 train was offered instead of the 7:00 train which is 3 hours faster.

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The itineraries with the cheapest prices include Ouigo or IDTGV services. Loco2 doesn't sell tickets for these services, which are often cheaper than normal TGV services. However, it should be possible to book the normal TGV for those journeys.
http://help.loco2.com/article/368-tickets-available-on-loco2
Ouigo and IDTGV are subsidiaries of SNCF set up to reduce personnel costs and increase train set productivity. The fare structures are different to those of services operated directly and Loco2 would presumably have to negotiate with the companies separately. Details here: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=2641600

I agree it would be helpful to integrate ferry bookings into Loco2's booking engine, but this adds another level of complication. Perhaps making users aware that such a service exists would be a good first step.

Not sure about the 0700/0713 issue, but getting Internet booking engines to show exactly what you want is an art generally - what stopover time did you specify at Dieppe and does changing it make any difference?

The market for routes involving ferries must be a very small fraction of the total, and the only one that would be really worth having in the system is Harwich-Hoek, because it is rail-connected (OK, rail or tram...), but that can only be booked through Stena. I can well imagine that it's not worth loco2's while opening negotiations.

Seat61 has a good listing of the ferry options, but the others generally are only of interest if your origin or destination is close to a port. And how Newhaven-Dieppe survives at all beats me....

Newhaven - Dieppe has the advantage of being very affordable booked at short notice.

I agree that for most journeys Eurostar is more convenient, but I imagine that the Newcastle / Hull - Netherlands / Belgium ferries might also attract a reasonable amount of custom. Ferry ports are generally not located next to stations which would present complications with itineraries.

Oscar said:

I imagine that the Newcastle / Hull - Netherlands / Belgium ferries might also attract a reasonable amount of custom. Ferry ports are generally not located next to stations which would present complications with itineraries.

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Agreed, but unless things have changed considerably since I last checked they aren't priced to attract through foot passenger traffic, only short break customers - certainly the case from Lancs/Yorks. At least Dutchflyer still exists (though the price is no longer such a bargain)! And as you say the station to port bit is problematic...

If you contact loco2, I find they are quite responsive to suggestions.

The only thing I don't like about their app for UK use is that it doesn't do 3 character CRS codes. Otherwise I've used it and found it very pleasant to use. Pay by PayPal from a credit card and the fees are avoided.

Most of the questions raised have been more or less answered, but if it helps to hear from the horse's mouth we're happy to help! It's really great to hear everyone's feedback and ideas, we're always keen to hear it.

globetrotter said:

If Loco2 search could take into account possible ferry routes (foot passenger prices are I think quite easy to calculate) that would be really useful. If not, it could determine that a ferry is potentially available (showing it as an option) and allow calculation of just the train fares leaving the user to check on ferry sailings and prices.

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At the moment, Loco2 isn't connected to any booking systems that exclusively offer other forms of transport. Where ferries are integrated into a national rail system e.g. Rail and Sail to Ireland, we include them in search results and sell tickets. Similarly, if ferry timetables are available in the data sets we use for the timetable (Merits data parsed by Hafas), we'd be able to show the ferry options even if the results weren't bookable. At the moment, neither of these things are made possible by the data.

We could pursue a direct connection to DFDS to add ferry times to our system, and that certainly isn't out of the question. But since we are small team with limited resources we have to plan new integrations very carefully. A connection to DFDS would be a move towards a multi-modal booking tool, which at the moment would be at the expense of other rail connections so it isn't in our current roadmap.

globetrotter said:

When I searched on the 20th on Voyages-SNCF for Dieppe-Nice I was offered fares ranging from €94 (non-modifiable) and even one train at €83 (modifiable).

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Ticket prices on Loco2 and Voyages-SNCF are identical (search in Euros if you want absolute clarity). The exception is Ouigo and IdTGV, for which (as Oscar correct describes), require a separate API integration. We are seeking a direct connection to Ougio/IdTGV, which is an example of an integration that would take precedent over ferries.

I'm afraid that I don't know why you weren't shown the 07:00 service. I've tried to recreate your search today, and found the 07:00 service offered and the 07:13 train sold out so I can't debug your results I'm afraid. Next time, ping the search URL to [email protected] and we can easily work out what's going on.

You can always choose all fare types including non-flexible fares depending on availability. We display the cheapest fare by default, but you can pick something else by selecting it from the drop down menu alongside each set of results.

globetrotter said:

A button to "Modify Search" rather than using the back button would also be useful.

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Unless I've misunderstood, the edit button (top right of search results) serves this purpose?

Neil Williams said:

The only thing I don't like about their app for UK use is that it doesn't do 3 character CRS codes.

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We don't currently support these since there's a risk that we'd introduce ambiguity for international stations. For example, start typing the code for Bearley,...BER... and you'd end up with Berlin and Bearley in the list. Since these codes don't exist for the tens of thousands of stations we have outside the UK, we fear that they'd create confusion. We may revisit this one day if we feel that we have enough resource to adequate address the issues it might create in our station database.

Phew! Lots of questions to respond to! Hopefully I haven't missed anything.

It doesn't seem to include Rail and Sail to the Netherlands, which is available as a through ticket. (I tried Manningtree to The Hague as an test journey).

cgcenet said:

It doesn't seem to include Rail and Sail to the Netherlands, which is available as a through ticket. (I tried Manningtree to The Hague as an test journey).

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That's a funny one - even though there are fares there in the fares database: http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=LST&dest=H443
There is no ferry link in the ATOC timetable data that would allow booking engines to sell these fares.

Isn't it pleasant that a company is willing to answer questions with a straight bat for once,
rather than the over used stock answers uttered forth.
Well done Loco2 - shall give you a try for my next European jaunt.

Yes Loco2 is a potentially excellent way to book tickets.

I hope that the bewildering variety of cheap, advance and other discounted fares can be taken into account.

What might be useful for Loco2 is to look at google.com/flights and choose a faraway destination not serviced by direct flights from point of departure. Then examine how Google offers boxes to tick for 'via' points, times of day, duration and so on and see if there is a way to incorporate similar options (including any rail cards held or age if under 26 etc.) into their rail search engine. Google lets users select possible options at each leg of the journey. Much like the airlines, train pricing is often adjusted by some operators in order to maximise revenue or seat utilisation, so it may be worth storing and re-running searches.

Use of 'via' points could allow users to compare costs of travelling along totally different routes to a destination like Milan.

Another interesting idea would be to show the user the cost of a stopover. Many people would not want to travel non-stop from say Manchester to Rome, so they would fly. But if they could see the cost to stop say in two places along the way then it might be worth paying a higher price to do so. That usually means two tickets as, although short stopovers - e.g. for lunch - are quite OK, break of journey overnight is not usually possible. As I commented earlier, all rules regarding changes of itinerary must be disclosed before booking.

Regarding issues crossing the channel, where sensible options exist then the user needs to be made aware of ferry routes and can perhaps book only the continental part of the route using Loco2. In particular one way fares on Eurostar can be very high, so a ferry can be a better option.

In my earlier posting, I used France as an example; in Italy trains are priced according to the type of train and it can be much cheaper to use a local train that in some cases is nearly as fast. Again a box might offer "show slower trains where applicable" or the user could tick a box as to whether journey time or a lower price was more important.

Complex searches use resources; an idea for the future could be a "paid" or subscription option offering more facilities and choices for frequent users.

globetrotter said:

Use of 'via' points could allow users to compare costs of travelling along totally different routes to a destination like Milan.

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You're right, this would be a great feature! You can already add one 'via' to a search by clicking the More Options button when you create your search. This enables you to specify where to split a journey, and you can state how long you'd like to stay, from 15 mins to hours or days.

We don't currently offer allow users to add multiple stopovers, simply because there isn't much demand. Most of our customers are carrying out relatively straight-forward journeys so being able to specify a journey via Lille instead of Paris, or adding an overnight stop somewhere mid-journey serves the majority of use-cases.

We'd like to build something more sophisticated but we don't have manpower at the moment. In the meantime, I'd advise that you create multiple searches to build a more complex itinerary - you can save searches as you go along to avoid duplicate effort: http://help.loco2.com/article/318-sharing-saving-search-results. And we also allow you to hold tickets in your basket (according to time limits that are set by the rail operator).

globetrotter said:

Another interesting idea would be to show the user the cost of a stopover.

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This is something that we are looking at, and have started by launching a simple connection to an accommodation partner. It can get complicated quickly, with non-refundable train tickets or accommodation that cannot be confirmed immediately, so we are feeling our way through this. You'll see it evolve over 2017 and we'd love to hear your feedback as we go along.

globetrotter said:

Regarding issues crossing the channel, where sensible options exist then the user needs to be made aware of ferry routes and can perhaps book only the continental part of the route using Loco2. In particular one way fares on Eurostar can be very high, so a ferry can be a better option.

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Agreed, but as outlined above, this isn't currently feasible for us to deliver.

globetrotter said:

a box might offer "show slower trains where applicable" or the user could tick a box as to whether journey time or a lower price was more important.

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We show all trains that are returned by the rail operator for a given route with a message that highlights slower services, that may be cheaper. We may consider allowing users to specify a preference for slow trains in future.

globetrotter said:

Complex searches use resources; an idea for the future could be a "paid" or subscription option offering more facilities and choices for frequent users.

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We currently plan to keep Loco2 free to customers (i.e. earning money on commission), enabling more advanced features for all users at the same time. This takes time but we like to think that all users are created equal! We may consider adding a booking a fee in the future, the revenue from which might allow us to scale more quickly, but that's not currently in the pipeline.

Thanks again for all your feedback and ideas.