Are the railways a sad reflection of employment in the UK?

TheEdge · 28 Jan 2017

This might fall flat on its face,might prompt interesting debate or may make me look rather silly but here goes anyway.

Is it a bad thing that as a 26 year old working on the railways I feel incredibly privileged to have employment protection and conditions that most in my generation seem to only dream of?

As a member of rail staff I have a simple 35hr week permanent contract, have a salary comfortably above the UK average, am offered the protection of recognised and fairly effective unions, have access to a final salary pension scheme. I have the legal ability to withdraw my labour, I get overtime without any arbitrary "first x minutes are free" rules, I don't suffer from the unpaid break trick, my managers and shift supervisors can't force me to work overtime, they can request but I can refuse with no risk.

Personally I feel it is a terrible reflection on the state of UK employment that it feels like I am privileged that I can safely refuse to work beyond contracted hours and that I have a secure contract of employment. It really feels like most of that should be afforded to everyone. Or have I just got a really twisted vision of what the rest of the working world is like?

Proceed to tear me to pieces! :lol:

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GusB · 28 Jan 2017

It's probably your "recognised and fairly effective unions" that you can thank for your situation.

I've worked in retail/call centres for quite a few years now (I'm in my early 40s) and I've rarely felt that there's been much security, even where there are recognised unions in the workplace.

In the various supermarkets that I've worked in, there hasn't actually been a local rep and I've certainly felt reluctant to actually put myself forward for fear of being labelled as a trouble maker, kissing goodbye to any promotion prospects at the same time. I'm sure I'm not alone either.

It is a terrible reflection on the state of UK employment, but we have been on this road for a long time and I honestly don't see it getting any better. Having said that, there's a lot more that workers in the UK could do to improve their lot simply by joining a recognised trade union if there is one available. In my experience, many former colleagues have simply shrugged and said "no point" when the subject of union membership has been brought up.

AlterEgo · 28 Jan 2017

The civil service also has decent employment protection; that's quite a large employer.

Xenophon PCDGS · 28 Jan 2017

Being the age that I am, feeling the need to give an accompanying musical tribute to this new thread posting, I could not find any more suitable than the 1973 recording by The Strawbs, "Part of the union"

AM9 · 28 Jan 2017

Paul Sidorczuk said:
Being the age that I am, feeling the need to give an accompanying musical tribute to this new thread posting, I could not find any more suitable than the 1973 recording by The Strawbs, "Part of the union"

The worst excesses of the major unions in the '70s are part to blame for the situation that many workers are in now. Clearly, the Callaghan government suffered from the rising militancy of the unions, particulalrly in the nationalised/public service industries and major industrials like the car manufacturers.
The result was that the Conservatives had an easy ride after the 1979 election shutting down established industries. This had the dual benefit (to the right wing) of increasing unemployment which reduced union power. The whole thing was presented as a fight against evil (ergo left-wing) influences which appealed to aspirational working class tories, (remember 'Essex Man'). Since then, there has been systematic dismantling of worker's rights by the right wing of UK politics. The mass privatisation of energy and public transport was all part of the longer term strategy to keep things that way.
Were it not for the advances in social/employment rights of our fellow European competitors, conditions in the UK would have continued in a downward direction towards that 'enjoyed' by non-professional counterparts in the US. Fortunately, despite the efforts of right-wing administrations in the UK fighting for restrictions on worker's basic rights, (euphamistically described as 'common sense'), EU directives have established a level of employment rights that should be cherished in a humane society. I fear that such a view is not universally shared on this forum.
For news of any erosion of those post brexit, keep an eye on the 'EU referendum ...' thread.

Gathursty · 28 Jan 2017

I'm a teacher. I think the teaching unions are pretty good but as ever there is much work to do to improve the lot of my fellow colleagues rights' in the workplace.

We can only strike during working hours as obviously there'd be no effect doing it in the Summer. It's a double-edged sword as clearly we want the time to teach and hence bolster our student's results etc...

Another catch-22 is the general public moaning about a full salary when we have many weeks off but the general public must also understand that it is important for children to relax and enjoy themselves as every member of the general public has done since the late 19th Century when compulsory education was introduced.

alxndr · 28 Jan 2017

I'm 20 and feel quite similar. The difference between my position, rights, and security and that of my retail-working partner, is vast.

Not everyone on the railway is that privileged though. Contractors in particular seem to get the short end of the stick, travelling hours every day, perhaps just to stand on the flags day in, day out. But what does that say about job opportunities in their area?

Dave1987 · 28 Jan 2017

Indeed it is a very sad reflection of the economy we now live in. Most young people will not be able to retire before they are over 70. We are all told that we should be saving for our retirement yet in recent year virtually all the decent pensions have been closed down. Was told by a friend of mine who has recently got out of the military that the military pensions are currently under attack.

Home ownership, decent pension, decent wages, decent terms & conditions are a mere dream for many working people in this country. Very very sad state of affairs. We live to work in this country rather than working to live.

Aldaniti · 28 Jan 2017

Dave1987 said:
Indeed it is a very sad reflection of the economy we now live in. Most young people will not be able to retire before they are over 70. We are all told that we should be saving for our retirement yet in recent year virtually all the decent pensions have been closed down. Was told by a friend of mine who has recently got out of the military that the military pensions are currently under attack.

Home ownership, decent pension, decent wages, decent terms & conditions are a mere dream for many working people in this country. Very very sad state of affairs. We live to work in this country rather than working to live.

Completely agree. I really do feel sorry for many of today's young people. Yet, by and large, many of them continue to support and vote for the liberal economic (and social) politics that has played a significant part in bringing us to this situation. However, without importing the topics of other political threads on this forum, there are now a few signs of hope for the future. Time will tell...

AM9 · 28 Jan 2017

Dave1987 said:
... Most young people will not be able to retire before they are over 70.

In 1960, the median life expectancy in the UK was about 71 years (+~2y for females , -~2y for males). That's less than 6 years of retirement for men (or about 1/11th of a normal adult working life)
By 2012, it had risen to 81.5 years median. To give an equivalent ratio of working to retirement time in 2012 would mean a retirement age of just over 70 years. Of course there has been a regional variation of +/- a couple of percent, - and still is.

Dave1987 said:
We are all told that we should be saving for our retirement yet in recent year virtually all the decent pensions have been closed down.

If 'decent' pensions are being closed down, it is all the more important to save for retirement.

Dave1987 said:
... We live to work in this country rather than working to live.

'Twas always that way for all but the privileged few.

TheEdge · 28 Jan 2017

AM9 said:
If 'decent' pensions are being closed down, it is all the more important to save for retirement.

At the same time as we are paying sky high rents, trying to save enourmous deposits for a home and battling ever rising living costs. Easy.

Meanwhile the generation who left the economy in the state its in like to sit on their nice pensions and buy to let portfolios telling us Millenials to stop whining...

Aldaniti · 28 Jan 2017

TheEdge said:
Meanwhile the generation who left the economy in the state its in like to sit on their nice pensions and buy to let portfolios telling us Millenials to stop whining...

Many of the past generations you refer to experienced tough times too, but you have a broad point; a relatively small group continue to cream off the wealth, power and prospects for themselves.

When I felt strongly about something, I got involved with pressure groups. For what it's worth: the campaign to allow Gurkha's the rights to settle in the UK, and the campaign to stop animal experimentation.

What are YOU going to do?

TheEdge · 28 Jan 2017

What can I do? I support Shelter but can't force rents and house price to drop. I'm in a union but can't try and regain lost rights. I can't reverse the casualisation of the job market.

Aldaniti · 28 Jan 2017

TheEdge said:
What can I do? I support Shelter but can't force rents and house price to drop. I'm in a union but can't try and regain lost rights. I can't reverse the casualisation of the job market.

A lot of people have that attitude... what can I do. It's entirely reasonable and understandable, but if you feel really strongly about something there are opportunities open to you. Please don't take this as patronisation because it honestly isn't, but when I was your age there was no such thing as social media for example. Use the tools available. These days there are easier ways to get yourself heard, and opinions and causes can go viral very quickly. You support a worthwhile cause in Shelter, why not become involved and give them your ideas? Put yourself up as a union rep, who knows what it could lead to? Never underestimate your own ability, with the will and determination, to inflence and make change. Good luck to you!

Strathclyder · 29 Jan 2017

It is indeed a sad reflection on employment in this country. As for me, I am 20 y/o, unemployed & burdened with learning difficulties (namely Aspergers, which in itself limits my employment prospects greatly). Life hasn't been at all easy for me.

I wanted to go into the the retail sector, just to get a footing in the job market and to actually start giving something back to this family rather than constantly taking away from it. My chosen store (it was either Aldi or Lidl) however, turned me down, since it was thought that thanks to my disability, I wouldn't be able to cope with the fast-paced nature of the work I was wanting to get into. I knew from the outset that I would most likely be rejected, but it was still one of the soul-crushing moments of my life. I'd let myself and my family down, my feeling of total worthlessness being bolstered ten-fold in the process.

Yes, I'm know it's easy to read the above and say; 'You're still young. Have faith in yourself; something will turn up' etc. Well, yes, that is true to a certain extent. But considering the fact that my life has been a catalog of failure after miserable failure up to this point, it is quite difficult for me to have anything resembling faith in anything, let alone myself at the moment.

BTW, I'm sorry for the downer of a post, but these past few weeks have been among the worst of my life and I really needed to vent before I went off the deep end...

Hornet · 29 Jan 2017

TheEdge said:
At the same time as we are paying sky high rents, trying to save enourmous deposits for a home and battling ever rising living costs. Easy.

Meanwhile the generation who left the economy in the state its in like to sit on their nice pensions and buy to let portfolios telling us Millenials to stop whining...

Diddums. Must be so tough. My parents had it easy. Both evacuees. Dad's home bombed, Mum's closest friend's family gassed in Auschwitz. (The friend was a Hungarian Jew, lucky to get out before the Nazi's arrived, unlike her family). Parents lived in Rachman owned digs when they married before getting a council house. Dad worked up to 14 hours a day, 6 days a week to earn enough to buy the family home. Mum had to do child minding work to make ends meet. Now living on a pension around the same level as the minimum wage. They are happy though, which is more than can be said for the whining, whinging, want it all now, Millennial waste of spaces that seem to infest the planet these days. Give me strength!

Simon11 · 29 Jan 2017

Strathclyder said:
It is indeed a sad reflection on employment in this country. As for me, I am 20 y/o, unemployed & burdened with learning difficulties (namely Aspergers, which in itself limits my employment prospects greatly). Life hasn't been at all easy for me.

I wanted to go into the the retail sector, just to get a footing in the job market and to actually start giving something back to this family rather than constantly taking away from it. My chosen store (it was either Aldi or Lidl) however, turned me down, since it was thought that thanks to my disability, I wouldn't be able to cope with the fast-paced nature of the work I was wanting to get into. I knew from the outset that I would most likely be rejected, but it was still one of the soul-crushing moments of my life. I'd let myself and my family down, my feeling of total worthlessness being bolstered ten-fold in the process.

Yes, I'm know it's easy to read the above and say; 'You're still young. Have faith in yourself; something will turn up' etc. Well, yes, that is true to a certain extent. But considering the fact that my life has been a catalog of failure after miserable failure up to this point, it is quite difficult for me to have anything resembling faith in anything, let alone myself at the moment.

BTW, I'm sorry for the downer of a post, but these past few weeks have been among the worst of my life and I really needed to vent before I went off the deep end...

I'm always a believer that life is what you make of it. Sit doing nothing, then opportunity are limited, keep trying and the world will open up.

Keep going and applying for jobs and with every experience, it will boost your chances of finding your ideal job. Have you considered a junior role in a TOC HQ who are looking for smart junior staff with a keen eye for spotting an opportunity? Good luck and give me a shout for advice!

GatwickDepress · 29 Jan 2017

Strathclyder said:
I wanted to go into the the retail sector, just to get a footing in the job market and to actually start giving something back to this family rather than constantly taking away from it. My chosen store (it was either Aldi or Lidl) however, turned me down, since it was thought that thanks to my disability, I wouldn't be able to cope with the fast-paced nature of the work I was wanting to get into. I knew from the outset that I would most likely be rejected, but it was still one of the soul-crushing moments of my life. I'd let myself and my family down, my feeling of total worthlessness being bolstered ten-fold in the process.

Tesco and Asda often advertise for part-time dotcom positions in their larger stores. Essentially you pick customers' grocery shopping with a handheld computer. It's a position I recommend to a lot of applicants with social disabilities as, while you are on the shop floor, interaction with customers is limited but still boosts social confidence and skills. I really would give applying another go; I've been there. Best of luck mate. You'll find somewhere, I know it.

EDIT: Simon11 might be able to provide better opportunities than life in the "ten items or less" lane though.

GusB · 29 Jan 2017

Hornet said:
Diddums. Must be so tough. My parents had it easy. Both evacuees. Dad's home bombed, Mum's closest friend's family gassed in Auschwitz. (The friend was a Hungarian Jew, lucky to get out before the Nazi's arrived, unlike her family). Parents lived in Rachman owned digs when they married before getting a council house. Dad worked up to 14 hours a day, 6 days a week to earn enough to buy the family home. Mum had to do child minding work to make ends meet. Now living on a pension around the same level as the minimum wage. They are happy though, which is more than can be said for the whining, whinging, want it all now, Millennial waste of spaces that seem to infest the planet these days. Give me strength!

Let's not turn this into a "who has been hardest done-by" contest. I can't argue with anything that has been said in the quote above because awful things have happened. Those particular issues didn't affect any of my family directly, but having done a little bit of research on my own ancestors, I don't think anyone really had it easy.

But, over the years we've made progress. We moved away from people having to work for more than 12 hours a day in order to scrape together a pittance to pay the rent for a room in slum conditions. Just because it happened in the past doesn't mean that it should still be the situation now.

My grandparents were born in the 20s and married in the 40s. Both my parents were born in 1948, so were born into the new "welfare state". When I came along in the early 70s there were certain expectations: free healthcare at the point of use, paid for by national insurance contributions. You went to school, studied hard and there was a reasonable assumption that you'd be able to move into a job at the end of it. If you were bright enough to be able to go on to further or higher education, fine - this was paid for, but you'd eventually pay it back through taxation. My dad often makes the point that during the 70s he paid through the nose in tax - far more than I'd be expected to pay now.

I was brought up to believe in a "fair day's pay for a fair day's job", and that if you worked hard enough you could climb the ladder, no matter where you started. This isn't the case any more. These days you need a degree to be a management trainee in a shop when previously you could have achieved that position by working your way up.

I have to say that I really object to this: "They are happy though, which is more than can be said for the whining, whinging, want it all now, Millennial waste of spaces that seem to infest the planet these days."

What is so wrong with wanting the same deal that your parents had? My parents, had they chosen to go into higher education, would have been able to do so without worrying about how much they would have to pay back in later years.

How dare you criticise those who simply want for themselves the same thing that their parents and grandparents had.

TheEdge · 29 Jan 2017

Hornet said:
Diddums. Must be so tough. My parents had it easy. Both evacuees. Dad's home bombed, Mum's closest friend's family gassed in Auschwitz. (The friend was a Hungarian Jew, lucky to get out before the Nazi's arrived, unlike her family). Parents lived in Rachman owned digs when they married before getting a council house. Dad worked up to 14 hours a day, 6 days a week to earn enough to buy the family home. Mum had to do child minding work to make ends meet. Now living on a pension around the same level as the minimum wage. They are happy though, which is more than can be said for the whining, whinging, want it all now, Millennial waste of spaces that seem to infest the planet these days. Give me strength!

How utterly condescending. Luckily GusB managed to get in first with a far more eloquent response than I was about to make when I first read this, luckily I was too busy wasting space and infesting the planet, at work, at 0300 on a Sunday morning.

I don't want it all and I don't want it now. All I'd really like is to be afforded the same opportunities that my parents and grandparents had. I hold a BSc, my father holds a BA. His was free, mine cost me just under £20k. Home ownership is a dream for most of my generation, let alone saving for one.

While you sit there an accuse me of whining just bear in mind these feelings are not baseless. My generation will be the first ever to be poorer than its parents. What a brilliant legacy for Generation X and the Baby Boomers to leave behind... :roll:

GatwickDepress · 29 Jan 2017

Hornet said:
Diddums. Must be so tough. My parents had it easy. Both evacuees. Dad's home bombed, Mum's closest friend's family gassed in Auschwitz. (The friend was a Hungarian Jew, lucky to get out before the Nazi's arrived, unlike her family). Parents lived in Rachman owned digs when they married before getting a council house. Dad worked up to 14 hours a day, 6 days a week to earn enough to buy the family home. Mum had to do child minding work to make ends meet. Now living on a pension around the same level as the minimum wage. They are happy though, which is more than can be said for the whining, whinging, want it all now, Millennial waste of spaces that seem to infest the planet these days. Give me strength!

Goodness, what a disgusting piece of vitriol. What about you. What about your generation? What were your employment opportunities? Your housing situation?

That you choose to use your mother's friend's traumatic historu for some internet name-calling speaks volumes...

Strathclyder · 29 Jan 2017

Simon11 & GatwickDepress, I sincerely thank you for your words of support. Fully appreciated, particularly at this trying time.

I haven't considered what Simon11 is putting forward (mainly due to not having the required qualifications for such a position). Will give it at least some thought, though.

The proposal that GatwickDepress put forward seems, regarding my circumstances at least, more realistic and within my reach. I will consider both options (and will reach out if I need any assistance/pointers). Thank you both for putting them forward.

As for what Hornet posted, reiterating the above posters, never have I seen such stomach-turning, condescending vitriol on here. All this 'whiny, whinging, waste of space Millennial' wants is a steady job, a home to call his own and a steady income, I.E, what my parents/grandparents were able to attain. That's all, not asking for the world all at once...

And to use your mother's friend's horrific past as the groundwork for a bit of petty internet slander is truly revealing.

AlterEgo · 29 Jan 2017

TheEdge said:
How utterly condescending. Luckily GusB managed to get in first with a far more eloquent response than I was about to make when I first read this, luckily I was too busy wasting space and infesting the planet, at work, at 0300 on a Sunday morning.

I don't want it all and I don't want it now. All I'd really like is to be afforded the same opportunities that my parents and grandparents had. I hold a BSc, my father holds a BA. His was free, mine cost me just under £20k. Home ownership is a dream for most of my generation, let alone saving for one.

While you sit there an accuse me of whining just bear in mind these feelings are not baseless. My generation will be the first ever to be poorer than its parents. What a brilliant legacy for Generation X and the Baby Boomers to leave behind... :roll:

The whole point is that this generation has its difficulties, but they are different ones to the ones experienced by our forefathers.

I don't hold a BSc because I thought that getting one would be a waste of money - the fields I am academically interested in are not ones which pay well.

Home ownership is a dream but a dream which can be realised if you make some pretty big sacrifices. I didn't have any proper holidays for two years and cut down all my spending on luxuries so I could save for a deposit. Now I have not only the flat I live in, but a buy-to-let up the road too.

This thread is a bit "Four Yorkshiremen" so I won't elaborate much further, but my parents had more severe difficulties in life than I ever did. They way they escaped those difficulties was by making big and hard choices.

We do live in a consumer-oriented world, where, from the beginning we are told that whatever problem you have, there can be an easy solution to it. That's just a sign of the times.

Trog · 29 Jan 2017

As one of the generation one older than the whining ones, who owns their own home. May I point out that my late wife and I achieved that by working overtime hours that are now illegal, and by not taking a holiday for thirty years. My parents generation were brought up in the shortages of WW2 and its aftermath, and my grand parents generation had to fight through both world wars. Every generation has problems it is just one of those things, we have to live with.

Dave1987 · 29 Jan 2017

To give some examples of the way things work now. One of the tricks that is used in new contracts now are that you do not get sick pay for the first 3-5 days, some employers require a sick note from the doctor before the will pay out sick pay (therefore wasting GP's time on people who don't really need to see a doctor), which results in people going into work when they really shouldn't but they can't afford to be off sick. Overtime is usually on paid at normal hourly rate now and I believe some employers don't even pay Sunday premium any longer as they see it as part of the normal working week.

Kite159 · 22 Feb 2017

Dave1987 said:
To give some examples of the way things work now. One of the tricks that is used in new contracts now are that you do not get sick pay for the first 3-5 days, some employers require a sick note from the doctor before the will pay out sick pay (therefore wasting GP's time on people who don't really need to see a doctor), which results in people going into work when they really shouldn't but they can't afford to be off sick. Overtime is usually on paid at normal hourly rate now and I believe some employers don't even pay Sunday premium any longer as they see it as part of the normal working week.

Sorry to bump an old thread, sounds very much like the entry level jobs where I work for, if they are off sick they don't get anything for the first 2 days and then SSP afterwards on production of a "fit" note from the doctors.

Hence you get some employees who should be off sick with various winter bugs to avoid 'spreading the love' coming into work solely to avoid losing pay, and as a result more colleagues get said illness.

(There was a push a few years ago by the HR team to improve the contracts, but the union rep was a royal pain in the rearend and decided that as his contract was gold plated ex-MOD [i.e. something like 35 days holiday, 6 months full sick-pay] he wasn't going to do anything to help improve the contracts of anybody else just in case the company tried to take away some of his benefits even though they stated that nobody would lose out)

Bletchleyite · 22 Feb 2017

Strathclyder said:
I wanted to go into the the retail sector, just to get a footing in the job market and to actually start giving something back to this family rather than constantly taking away from it. My chosen store (it was either Aldi or Lidl) however, turned me down, since it was thought that thanks to my disability, I wouldn't be able to cope with the fast-paced nature of the work I was wanting to get into.

Did they state that? I'd have thought that that was illegal.

najaB · 22 Feb 2017

Neil Williams said:
Did they state that? I'd have thought that that was illegal.

While it is legal to decline to make an offer of employment where someone is demonstrably unable to perform the tasks required of the role, I agree that the scenario described above does sound very suspect.

Strathclyder · 22 Feb 2017

Neil Williams said:
Did they state that? I'd have thought that that was illegal.

I should have clarified in my O.P, I had proposed semi-seriously to my uncle (who is a regional store manager for Lidl) the idea of working in one of the stores under his control. However, his reply was that due to my Aspergers, I wouldn't be able to cope with the fast-paced nature of the work. And he was right, I wouldn't have been able to deal with it. As much as it was in my best interests, that response killed off my drive to keep on looking for work...

My profound apologies to anyone I may have misled with my original post. There was no malice involved, just a emotionally exhausted young man not thinking clearly...

najaB · 22 Feb 2017

Strathclyder said:
My profound apologies to anyone I may have misled with my original post. There was no malice involved, just a emotionally exhausted young man not thinking clearly...

No problem, we've all made posts that have come across the wrong way.

With regards to potential employment opportunities, depending on how your Aspergers affects you of course, contact centre work could be a viable option. Not all of it is on the phones, increasingly companies need people on their live chat, email and social media streams as well.

Are the railways a sad reflection of employment in the UK?

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