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Donald Trump and the aftermath of his presidency

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Bletchleyite

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The petition has had a great effect. MPs due to debate the issue. Downing Street sources admitting to journalists that revoking the invitation would undo all the work done during her visit to the White House. In other words the trade deal is far more important than taking a stand on principles and human rights. History is repeating itself. Mrs May knows she has burnt her bridges with the EU so has backed herself into a corner and is relying on Trump, and I'm sure the Trump administration is well aware of that.

Yes, that is my view too.

Changing world events, in my opinion, necessitate a re-run of the EU referendum. The evidence has changed substantially. We need the EU more than ever in the face of an isolationist and I fear progressively more fascist USA.
 

AlterEgo

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I fear progressively more fascist USA.

Interesting that you say that. I just found this:

https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/trial-balloon-for-a-coup-e024990891d5#.4sm2x1h74

The theme of this morning’s news updates from Washington is additional clarity emerging, rather than meaningful changes in the field. But this clarity is enough to give us a sense of what we just saw happen, and why it happened the way it did.

(The article is long so I have not copied it all here, but do read it!)

Not sure I agree with everything the piece says, but there are some compelling - and worrying - synergies, particularly around the centralisation of power.
 

Aldaniti

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Breaking News: 63 million didn't sign the petition.

The liberals are so desperate they're now trying to throw out fake news stories about what even the royals are supposed to be thinking. All from nameless, unattributable sources of course....

Plenty more toy throwing to come, I have no doubt. :lol:
 

Tim R-T-C

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Interesting that you say that. I just found this:

https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/trial-balloon-for-a-coup-e024990891d5#.4sm2x1h74

Not sure I agree with everything the piece says, but there are some compelling - and worrying - synergies, particularly around the centralisation of power.

I was just reading that and his other, even grimmer piece:

https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/what-things-going-wrong-can-look-like-400f84a0cc3a#.v9719riq8

It is darkly ironic that during the Obama administration I frequently saw right wing posts on social media, paranoid that the Obama government was trying to impose martial law and start a coup to take over complete control of the country (for what reason, no-one ever said). But now those same people are supporting a man who seems more posed than anyone before to do just that. Putting his private elite circle into positions of high power.
 

EM2

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The liberals are so desperate they're now trying to throw out fake news stories about what even the royals are supposed to be thinking. All from nameless, unattributable sources of course....
if you were a member of the Royal family, what would be your reaction to this tweet from Donald Trump?
http://www.elle.com/culture/celebrities/news/a42483/donald-trump-gross-kate-middleton-tweet/
kate1.png

Would you think that this is a statesman-like figure, that commands respect and admiration on the world stage, or would you think that this is someone that has shown no respect to a member of your family and sees nothing wrong in profiting from your privacy being invaded?
 
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pemma

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The liberals are so desperate they're now trying to throw out fake news stories about what even the royals are supposed to be thinking. All from nameless, unattributable sources of course....

Evidence?

Do you mean like a Sun journalist saying The Queen disapproved of the EU when no-one else who was in the same room at the time as she allegedly made the comment said it was true, or do you mean someone posted something on Twitter?
 
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Tim R-T-C

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Breaking News: 63 million didn't sign the petition.

47 million people didn't vote to leave the EU, yet here we are.

I would hardly call myself a liberal, but what Trump is doing in regards immigration and refugees is dangerous and immoral, his attempts to discredit the American electoral system and his back door links to Russia are highly concerning given their actions in Ukraine and the Caucasus lately, without a strong American voice against Russia and joint strength of NATO, Putin might be tempted to expand far more.

I and I am sure many signing the petition are not saying we need to turn our back on him. You can't ignore the USA. But giving him a grand state reception when his actions so far have been so heinous seems in poor taste and discredits our national status.

If Brexit is all about regaining control, then having the ability to make a unilateral stand against Trump and his policies should surely be a starting point.

The liberals are so desperate they're now trying to throw out fake news stories about what even the royals are supposed to be thinking. All from nameless, unattributable sources of course....

Prince Charles is very serious about climate change. Trump thinks it was made up by China and all the scientific articles about it, even by NASA and US scientists are faked to promote Chinese business. Not hard to see why people think there will be a clash of ideas there.
 
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AlterEgo

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Prince Charles is very serious about climate change. Trump thinks it was made up by China and all the scientific articles about it, even by NASA and US scientists are faked to promote Chinese business. Not hard to see why people think there will be a clash of ideas there.

For all I have urged people to "wait and see" with Trump, it is concerning that he is making Prince Charles look grounded and reasonable.

(That's a serious comment; not flippancy)
 

me123

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Interesting that you say that. I just found this:

https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/trial-balloon-for-a-coup-e024990891d5#.4sm2x1h74



(The article is long so I have not copied it all here, but do read it!)

Not sure I agree with everything the piece says, but there are some compelling - and worrying - synergies, particularly around the centralisation of power.

One of the interesting points in that article is that Drumpf is a candidate in the 2020 election, possibly the only candidate at this stage. The article discusses the financial benefits of him doing so, and it's worth noting that he has already trademarked the rather presumptuous phrase "Keep America Great", presumably as a campaign slogan.

However, this has some other implications. I was watching a youtube show that is made by a charitable organisation in the US, and they stated that Drumpf's candidacy put specific restrictions upon them talking about him and expressing any opinion that could be construed as political campaigning. (This is to do with their tax exemption status, and was put in place in good faith). I'm not sure if this has been a deliberate act to silence some groups that now cannot criticise the incumbent president, or if it's an unintended consequence, but it seems somewhat shady.
 

pemma

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Prince Charles is very serious about climate change. Trump thinks it was made up by China and all the scientific articles about it, even by NASA and US scientists are faked to promote Chinese business. Not hard to see why people think there will be a clash of ideas there.

Also that story was first published by the Daily Mail and Telegraph. The Guardian and Independent picking up on it later, so if it's found to be unverified it's the right wing press that are coming up with unverified stories not the liberal press. If anything The Guardian and Independent probably verified the story first which is why they didn't publish it as soon as the Daily Mail.
 

Aldaniti

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Evidence?

Do you mean like a Sun journalist saying The Queen disapproved of the EU when no-one else who was in the same room at the time as she allegedly made the comment said it was true, or do you mean someone posted something on Twitter?

Yesterday's Sunday Times. I tend not to bother with nonsense such as Twitter.
 

Bletchleyite

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Clearly, your struggling with the definition. Let me help: Margaret Thatcher was an economic liberal... :lol:

I think the term liberal gets misused, because the Liberal Democrats are not necessary a liberal party. The left wing is not necessarily a liberal concept - often it is quite the opposite.

Mind you, the Conservatives are similarly not always conservative in their approach.
 

Aldaniti

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I think the term liberal gets misused, because the Liberal Democrats are not necessary a liberal party. The left wing is not necessarily a liberal concept - often it is quite the opposite.

Mind you, the Conservatives are similarly not always conservative in their approach.

Correct.
 

pemma

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I think the term liberal gets misused, because the Liberal Democrats are not necessary a liberal party. The left wing is not necessarily a liberal concept - often it is quite the opposite.

Mind you, the Conservatives are similarly not always conservative in their approach.

The Collins dictionary has 8 meanings for the word liberal, the first of which is "having social and political views that favour progress or reform", the third of which is "tolerant of other people." So under the first definition a liberal would oppose Donald Trump's ideas but under the third definition a liberal would welcome the chance to talk to Donald Trump even if they don't personally agree with him.

Of course the name Liberal Democrats comes from the merger of two parties while Liberal and Social Democratic aren't two terms meaning the same thing.
 

dgl

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I do take it now that I can go to Camelot and say I have the winning euro millions numbers even if I don't but due to alternative facts they are now, or is that not how facts work.
 

Tim R-T-C

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The Collins dictionary has 8 meanings for the word liberal, the first of which is "having social and political views that favour progress or reform", the third of which is "tolerant of other people." So under the first definition a liberal would oppose Donald Trump's ideas but under the third definition a liberal would welcome the chance to talk to Donald Trump even if they don't personally agree with him.

Surely under the first definition, a liberal would support Trump, since he is certainly reforming everything about US Government.

Under the third, tolerance of other people might only stretch to those who are similarly tolerant. To be tolerant of the intolerant is to permit intolerance.
 

miami

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The Collins dictionary has 8 meanings for the word liberal, the first of which is "having social and political views that favour progress or reform", the third of which is "tolerant of other people." So under the first definition a liberal would oppose Donald Trump's ideas but under the third definition a liberal would welcome the chance to talk to Donald Trump even if they don't personally agree with him.

Of course the name Liberal Democrats comes from the merger of two parties while Liberal and Social Democratic aren't two terms meaning the same thing.

This petition specifically says

Donald Trump should be allowed to enter the UK in his capacity as head of the US Government

And that's right and proper, we need to engage with the US, and thus him.

It also says
but he should not be invited to make an official State Visit because it would cause embarrassment to Her Majesty the Queen.

Which is also right and proper. There is no need for ceremonial glitz that comes with a state visit and can be used for propaganda, just as there wasn't in 2014 for the Chinese visit.
 

pemma

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Surely under the first definition, a liberal would support Trump, since he is certainly reforming everything about US Government.

Not if you consider him to be reversing useful reforms put in place by the previous administration and undoing progress.

If 50% of a new hospital was built and someone said "Hey let's get a giant wrecking ball and knock down the partly built hospital and build something less useful there as we don't need hospitals" it wouldn't be progress even if it would be reform.
 
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Tim R-T-C

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Not if you consider him to be reversing useful reforms put in place by the previous administration and undoing progress.

If 50% of a new hospital was built and someone said "Hey let's get a giant wrecking ball and knock down the partly built hospital and build something less useful there as we don't need hospitals" it wouldn't be progress even if it would be reform.

If they are replacing it with a casino and you own a gaming company, then the destruction of that half-built hospital would be progress for you.
 

Aldaniti

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Where were these million signatories when Obama halted the Iraqi refugee programme in 2011?

Where were these million signatories when Ken Bigley had his head sliced off?

Where were these million signatories when Lee Rigby was murdered on the streets of London?

Where were these signatories when the Tube - and a bus - was bombed in 2005?

Where were these signatories when the Finsbury Park mosque was allowed to become a breeding ground for radical Islamic indoctrination and terrorism?

Where are these million signatories when ISIS behead their fellow citizens, set fire to them, fire missiles at them, and throw gay men from the top of high-rise buildings?

When Chilcot was published, where were those million signatories demanding that Blair and Bush face war crime charges?

At least we can be thankful that these million signatories come nowhere near close to representing a majority view of the British people.
 

miami

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Where were these million signatories when Obama halted the Iraqi refugee programme in 2011?

Obama's state visit was 5 years later, it wasn't announced the day that he banned UK citizens from flying home from holiday.

Where were these million signatories when Ken Bigley had his head sliced off?

Demanding that the queen did not meet with the "people" that did that?

Where were these million signatories when Lee Rigby was murdered on the streets of London?

Demanding that the queen did not meet with the "people" that did that?

Where were these signatories when the Tube - and a bus - was bombed in 2005?

Demanding that the queen did not meet with the "people" that did that?

Where were these signatories when the Finsbury Park mosque was allowed to become a breeding ground for radical Islamic indoctrination and terrorism?

Demanding that the queen did not meet with the "people" that did that?

Where are these million signatories when ISIS behead their fellow citizens, set fire to them, fire missiles at them, and throw gay men from the top of high-rise buildings?

Demanding that the queen did not meet with the "people" that did that?

When Chilcot was published, where were those million signatories demanding that Blair and Bush face war crime charges?

Ones like this? https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/108495

I suspect most people felt unqualified to determine if there was a criminal case to answer, so left it to the courts to decide.

At least we can be thankful that these million signatories come nowhere near close to representing a majority view of the British people.

Glad we agree that :wub:3 million isn't a majority view of the British people.
 

Aldaniti

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Obama's state visit was 5 years later, it wasn't announced the day that he banned UK citizens from flying home from holiday.



Demanding that the queen did not meet with the "people" that did that?



Demanding that the queen did not meet with the "people" that did that?



Demanding that the queen did not meet with the "people" that did that?



Demanding that the queen did not meet with the "people" that did that?



Demanding that the queen did not meet with the "people" that did that?



Ones like this? https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/108495

I suspect most people felt unqualified to determine if there was a criminal case to answer, so left it to the courts to decide.



Glad we agree that :wub:3 million isn't a majority view of the British people.

I suspect most educated people will understand the broad point.

But I have to tell you that 21,672 does not equal a million. Extra mathematics lessons for you my boy! :lol:
 
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Tim R-T-C

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I suspect most educated people will understand the broad point.

Ah the laziest dig, someone disagrees with you so they must be dumb.

Millions of people condemned all of those things you are talking about, many have probably signed this petition.

They are entirely unrelated things.
 

Aldaniti

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Ah the laziest dig, someone disagrees with you so they must be dumb.

They are entirely unrelated things.

Digs (and opinions) work both ways. In this case the 'dig' was specific because the poster concerned has a habit of doubting the education of those voting to leave the EU - and in a slightly unpleasant way.

As I mentioned in another thread, there appears to be an increasing disconnect between education and intelligence.

I've made my point and I'll leave it at that.
 

miami

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I suspect most educated people will understand the broad point.

What, that people protest government action when they feel the government isn't representing their views? The vast majority of your complaints were not about government action (or inaction)
 

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