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Goring Gap/AONBs and Electrification of the GWML

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dviner

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Far from it: NR has engaged and Mark Carne has personally promised that his company intends to install replacement OLE, subject to the inevitable caveats about funding (which you'd get in any public works project). Contractors have already been commissioned to design the equipment and consult on the environmental impact.

My emphasis above is what the the Goring Gap campaign are hearing.

The paragraph from his letter actually says (again, my emphasis):

I also re-affirm that should the outcome of the design options and the public consultation highlight that Network Rail should undertake retrospective works to alter or replace the installed apparatus, Network Rail intends to undertake such works as are necessary subject to costs and the agreement of funding. The entire project is paid for wholly by public funds so we have a duty to minimize the costs to Government and the taxpayer whilst delivering the economic and environmental benefits that an electric train service will bring.

Quote 1 != Quote 2 (substitute "<>" or "ne" for "!=" as you prefer)
 
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AE

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I think the Goring Gap residents should swallow hard, look up the meaning of the word stoicism and try to understand how lucky they are in the first place. Many other people have to put up with much worse than a bit of OHLE, e.g. oil refineries, chemical plants, open cast mines, incinerators, quarries, power stations etc. - they can all spoil a nice view.

My bedroom window, as a child, overlooked the WCML and its OHLE. There was no opposition from the residents at the time that it was installed as they had far more important things to worry about than how the view was changing. It was also seen as progress - it was going to make the trains cleaner and faster. The view was different but there would less diesel fumes and quieter trains.

I am also perplexed as to what the residents are actually expecting the current OHLE to be replaced with but I'm pretty sure that whatever it is they still won't be happy. So, we might as well not spend a lot of extra money on making them just a tiny bit less upset.

BTW having never visited the area I spent a fair amount of time nosing around Google Street View and I was pretty underwhelmed to say the least. It just looks like reasonably nice countryside that's all, you know like the stuff you get in the AONOs - areas of outstanding natural ordinariness - like where I live.
 

158756

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There is precedent for a 4 track overhead electrified railway in an AONB - the WCML at Tring. What was done there?

There also appears to be OHLE in the Arnside and Silverdale(WCML), Dedham Vale(GEML) and Kent Downs(HS1) AONBs.

Are similar problems to be expected with electrification in the Cotswolds, Cannock Chase or Windermere (National park)?
 

snowball

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There is precedent for a 4 track overhead electrified railway in an AONB - the WCML at Tring. What was done there?
In those days there was far less worry about such things. In any case the Chilterns AoNB was only established in 1965 - the wires were probably already up or being put up.

There also appears to be OHLE in the Arnside and Silverdale(WCML),
The AoNB doesn't reach Carnforth, so probably only includes plain line double track, so only single track cantilevers.

Windermere (National park)?
It will be interesting to see but it's single track so only basic cantilevers.
 

jimm

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There is precedent for a 4 track overhead electrified railway in an AONB - the WCML at Tring. What was done there?

There also appears to be OHLE in the Arnside and Silverdale(WCML), Dedham Vale(GEML) and Kent Downs(HS1) AONBs.

Are similar problems to be expected with electrification in the Cotswolds, Cannock Chase or Windermere (National park)?

In the case of the Tring Gap, the overhead is standard 1960s southern WCML fare, so lots of portals.

But in most of the other cases you note, the lines in question are, unless I'm missing something, double track, so the ones with wires/about to get wires (Cotswold Line won't see wires for a long time) just use simple posts with tensioning arms to hold the wires, which have a lower visual impact than the portals that are needed over quadruple track.

Unless, of course, you fervently believe in the wonders of headspans, which, it is quite clear, Network Rail does not after so many years of sorting out the mess on the ECML (and, on occasions, rather closer to Goring between Paddington and Airport Junction) when something goes wrong, a train pulls down a great chunk of the catenary wiring and all the lines are blocked, with the power off.

I suspect that were the GWML double track around Goring - like much of it west of Didcot is - so just had posts with tensioning arms to hold the catenary, we wouldn't have heard a peep about the electrification - whether or not Network Rail had consulted a soul over how the catenary might look.

No one is pretending portals don't have a higher visual impact but there are umpteen practical reasons why they are what is required - that have been outlined at length in this thread. Painting them is not the panacea some seem to believe and, should that be tried, someone will no doubt complain it's the wrong shade of green/stands out against the skyline/stands out against snow, etc...
 

Dixie

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It will be interesting to see what NR comes up with in terms of more visually pleasing structures. That's something they should have perhaps considered when developing the Mark 1 system. One of the things I like seeing when driving around the continent, particularly Spain, Belgium and the Netherlands, is the range of different designs that already exist.
 

Andrewlong

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What is the length of the offending stretch? Even if NR had approval to substantially change it, how long would it take given it won't be long before the electrification is live?

I have taken the train through Goring and Streatley as well been rambling through there and I would tend to agree with the AONO comment - it's not in the same league as Fingest or Turville!
 

hwl

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What is the length of the offending stretch? Even if NR had approval to substantially change it, how long would it take given it won't be long before the electrification is live?

I have taken the train through Goring and Streatley as well been rambling through there and I would tend to agree with the AONO comment - it's not in the same league as Fingest or Turville!

It would be retrofitted in several years time as they need it working as test track soon.
 

Tw99

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What is the length of the offending stretch? Even if NR had approval to substantially change it, how long would it take given it won't be long before the electrification is live?

On the "Save the Gap" website, they are very clear that they are only interested in the 2 miles or so around Goring. http://www.savegoringgap.org.uk/aims-of-rag.html

The actual stretch that runs in one or other of the AONBs is much longer, it's from a mile or two east of Pangbourne to, as near as makes no odds, Didcot.

If NR do anything at all, I assume they'll have to do it to the full stretch, if the rationale is to preserve the AONB, rather than pandering to NIMBYism in Goring.

(My house looks out over the Purley - Pangbourne stretch, fwiw)
 

Hophead

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On the "Save the Gap" website, they are very clear that they are only interested in the 2 miles or so around Goring. http://www.savegoringgap.org.uk/aims-of-rag.html

The actual stretch that runs in one or other of the AONBs is much longer, it's from a mile or two east of Pangbourne to, as near as makes no odds, Didcot.

If NR do anything at all, I assume they'll have to do it to the full stretch, if the rationale is to preserve the AONB, rather than pandering to NIMBYism in Goring.

(My house looks out over the Purley - Pangbourne stretch, fwiw)

They also believe that they will be able to decide on the suitability of the proposed replacement OHLE:

".... assuming a design is acceptable to RAG and the AONBs" (from the news page)
 

Emblematic

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"Point of order Mr Speaker:"
10,000 signatures merely elicits a government response (could easily be meaningless statement of spin from a suitable civil servant). A Parliamentary debate requires 100,000 signatures; very few petitions have ever achieved this, perhaps as few as three so far (awaits correction...)

100,000 does not guarantee a debate, merely that it will be considered for scheduling by the Petitions Committee.
25 have actually been debated, although that includes a few that were well short of the 100,000 threshold; these would have been debated by being requested by MPs rather than via the Committee. 5 more are awaiting a schedule, and 10 more were considered but not scheduled for debate.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions?state=debated
 

tsangpogorge

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What's the latest on the Goring Gap AONB situation? Haven't heard anything on that front for a while now.
 

snowball

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There's a separate thread for that.
However, the last post to that thread was in June last year, whereas the much more recent #4329 in this thread is relevant:

As you may or may not be aware, NR have been busy commissioning engineering, environmental and visual improvement studies for consultation with the AsONB regarding the possible replacement of the existing OLE where it passes through the AsONB.

This process is now at the stage where alternative OLE designs have been prepared as part of the ongoing consultations.
 

HSTEd

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Oh Dear
Not only is the new stuff costing enormous sums of money - now they want to pull some down and replace it.

Add another billion pounds to this project.
 

Who Cares

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Just a reality check….

About HSTE’d’s comment of ‘ Add another billion pounds to this project ‘….

Absolutely untrue. The additional costs would be only a very small fraction of a billion pounds.

The ongoing discussions with the AsONB are to potentially replace about 25 miles of OLE, or significantly less than 10% of the total mileage of the project and with nothing like the engineering complexities of the mileage between Paddington and Tilehurst.

And is limited to replacing only the existing steelwork – and so would not require additional expenditure for replacement of the newly installed and already paid for electrical generation systems, track improvement and levelling, and improved signalling along those 25 miles.

So the actual cost if NR replace the existing steelwork ? I have no idea, although NR presumably know how much it is likely to cost as Mark Carney has already confirmed that these costs are already included ( but not ring fenced ) in the latest Costs to Completion Estimates prepared for the DfT and the NAO.
 

HSTEd

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Just a reality check….
Absolutely untrue. The additional costs would be only a very small fraction of a billion pounds.
Really?
The steelwork will all have to be cut down, removed and new steelwork attached, this will all have to be done on active railway using materiel and personnel that will have to be found somewhere - since the existing staff are all rather busy stopping the whole scheme falling to pieces.
Or the scheme will have to be further delayed - causing ever more cost escalations thanks to problems caused by having to run without electrification with the new trains for even longer.

This is not going to be cheap.
The ongoing discussions with the AsONB are to potentially replace about 25 miles of OLE, or significantly less than 10% of the total mileage of the project and with nothing like the engineering complexities of the mileage between Paddington and Tilehurst.

25 route miles or track miles?
So the actual cost if NR replace the existing steelwork ? I have no idea, although NR presumably know how much it is likely to cost as Mark Carney has already confirmed that these costs are already included ( but not ring fenced ) in the latest Costs to Completion Estimates prepared for the DfT and the NAO.
You mean the costs to completion estimates that got half the project cut off and delayed indefinitely?
 

LNW-GW Joint

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The best cost for NR electrification is £650K per stkm.
If you mean 25 miles of quadruple track that's £100 million.
Not going to happen.
I can't imagine the disruption (= more cost) from all the possessions needed to dismantle and re-erect scores of portal structures (even if the same wires go back in).
 

Who Cares

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Really?
The steelwork will all have to be cut down, removed and new steelwork attached, this will all have to be done on active railway using materiel and personnel that will have to be found somewhere - since the existing staff are all rather busy stopping the whole scheme falling to pieces.
Or the scheme will have to be further delayed - causing ever more cost escalations thanks to problems caused by having to run without electrification with the new trains for even longer.

This is not going to be cheap.

NR have said that completion of the electrification project through to Cardiff ( or is it now Bristol ? ) has priority. Any replacement would be after this, and would, presumably, take place overnight just as it does now.
25 route miles or track miles?

Route miles - about half of which is double track, not four track.

You mean the costs to completion estimates that got half the project cut off and delayed indefinitely?

Indeed. Although I'd add that the almost £3 billion expected cost overspend beyond the original estimates are absolutely nothing to do with AsONB
 

GRALISTAIR

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Any replacement would be after this, and would, presumably, take place overnight just as it does now.

I don't wish to disrespect you - but please hear me out. You obviously have no idea how a possession or overnight works. We are talking about 25kV AC here - actually 50 kV because it is Auto-Transformer. First of all you would have to isolate the power - so nothing runs (actually with diesel IEPs etc they could but disruptive) . Then you would have to remove the attachments and line/catenary etc. Then get rid of one or two "old but actually new" masts. Then replace them using equipment while other lines get in the way - no easy task .

It is not as easy as you make out. Long possessions would be far easier. By definition they are very disruptive.
 
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Who Cares

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GRALISTER....

I'm no more an engineer than I am astronaut....I believe you entirely.

Certainly nobody involved expects NR to put any outstanding project work on hold to prioritise any re-installations in the AsONB

All that I was trying to say, perhaps too simply, is that I assume the works would take place overnight in just the same way as works have been going on overnight for the past two years, and the same methods / systems / processes for possessions would be used as they have been during those past two years.

Perhaps, even, this time the HOPS train could be used as reports on here say that it is now doing the output per shift that it was designed to do. In this case, the 25 or so miles would take significantly less time than previously from Tilehurst to Didcot which was with done with good, old fashioned blood, sweat and tears.
 
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GRALISTAIR

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All that I was trying to say, perhaps too simply, is that I assume the works would take place overnight in just the same way as works have been going on overnight for the past two years, and the same methods / systems / processes for possessions would be used as they have been during those past two years.

Perhaps, even, this time the HOPS train could be used as reports on here say that it is now doing the output per shift that it was designed to do. In this case, the 25 or so miles would take significantly less time than previously from Tilehurst to Didcot which was with done with good, old fashioned blood, sweat and tears.

That is what I am trying to explain to you. Over the last few years they have had a clear run at night – no wires or poles or cantilevers etc in the way – so they can plow on with the HOPS or old fashioned blood, sweat and tears. Even then they are miles behind. So in the future with energized wires, catenary, cantilevers and poles all in place – an absolute nightmare to replace all that equipment in the Goring Gap.

With the project on hold this will be way in the future if it ever happens. It will be way way down the priority list.

Even if you point out to me that they are upgrading kit for Crossrail – they are not removing posts and are replacing headspans with portals which you would (many do) I assume consider even more unsightly.
 
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coppercapped

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Route miles - about half of which is double track, not four track.

These 25 route-miles. Where are they? The stretch through the Goring Gap is 4 track - in fact the four tracks run from Paddington to just west of Didcot station. The twin track routes start west and north of Didcot.

So to which two track stretch are you referring?
 

smiffy9373

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Personally I think NR will say no money or too expensive to replace the OHLE at Goring. The best they can hope for is to paint the structures green!

Sent from my SM-T535 using Tapatalk
 

GRALISTAIR

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Personally I think NR will say no money or too expensive to replace the OHLE at Goring. The best they can hope for is to paint the structures green!

Would be my solution also. Though I think when they are weathered they will look better. Shiny galv does not always look pretty but then beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
 

Who Cares

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These 25 route-miles. Where are they? The stretch through the Goring Gap is 4 track - in fact the four tracks run from Paddington to just west of Didcot station. The twin track routes start west and north of Didcot.

So to which two track stretch are you referring?


As you describe....

Both the North Wessex AONB and the Chilterns AONB are discussing with NR the track in the Goring Gap between roughly Pangbourne and Moulsford where the track cuts through both AsONB, and which is all four track.

The North Wessex AONB are also discussing ( I believe, but could be behind the times ) parts of the line west of Didcot where the two tracks cut in and out the AONB. This section could be easier to resolve - personally, I think that the OLE already installed on the Moulsford Bridge ( which is two, two tracks if you know what I mean ) is a more than adequate compromise.

Smiffy and Gralistair are probably correct - painting, together with appropriate tree planting and screening where possible is an obvious solution. However, there are large areas where screening is not going to work ( particularly looking down into the valley in the Goring Gap from both sides of the river, and along the South Stoke Embankment ) and we've already discussed previously the problems and limitations of retrospectively painting / coating the existing steelwork.

Nevertheless, NR appear to be taking the problem seriously and are working with different designers / consultants to produce a series of possible solutions
 
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