Belgium: Passenger name regulation could destroy cross-border rail

MarcVD · 17 Nov 2016

Well I'm now 57, I started travelling regularly by train in the Benelux when I was 15, and since them I do not remember having shown my ID even only once when crossing the internal Benelux borders. Same for car travel after I started driving a few years later.

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anme · 20 Nov 2016

duesselmartin said:
Even at Midi, controls are lax. Last Werk there was a passport control on board the ICE between Midi and Nord. Total nonsense ad those who boarded Kater were unchecked.
It all looks like the slow end of Schengen.

I think you're overreacting. I've seen passport (well, ID) checks done occasionally on the intercity train between Belgium and the Netherlands. They are also done from time to time on international coaches travelling through Germany. Schengen doesn't actually mean no ID checks when crossing borders - or elsewhere, as police are generally allowed to ask for ID in many countries in Europe.

fowler9 · 20 Nov 2016

When the term Buss Pass is used can I go to Ireland on my Trio from Liverpool? That would be great.

Groningen · 20 Nov 2016

As told on a Dutch forum they have already measures in place on the stations in Antwerpen and Luik/Liege.

Elwyn · 20 Nov 2016

fowler9 said:
When the term Buss Pass is used can I go to Ireland on my Trio from Liverpool? That would be great.

Travel between the UK and Ireland is subject to slightly different rules to other inter EU travel. The 2 countries have a “Common Travel Area” as it’s called which allows for free movement between the 2, for EU nationals anyway. So a British or other EU citizen can enter Ireland without a passport. And if you go by ferry or cross the land border from Northern Ireland that’s easy enough. However if you fly, you will find that nearly all airlines insist on photo id, and only a handful of identity documents are acceptable. The main one being a passport. So in practice, if flying to Ireland, you do need a passport. But if going by ferry you could probably use a bus pass. (Best advised to check with the operator in advance, but that’s my understanding anyway).

Bletchleyite · 20 Nov 2016

Ryanair requires all passengers to carry a passport or EU ID card on their flights, domestic or otherwise. There are no exceptions.

easyJet also allows photo driving licences for domestics plus another list, not sure if they extend this to Ireland.

BA do not require photo ID for domestic or (probably) Ireland, though carrying a passport is by far the easiest way to avoid any issues.

radamfi · 20 Nov 2016

Elwyn said:
Travel between the UK and Ireland is subject to slightly different rules to other inter EU travel. The 2 countries have a Common Travel Area as its called which allows for free movement between the 2, for EU nationals anyway. So a British or other EU citizen can enter Ireland without a passport. And if you go by ferry or cross the land border from Northern Ireland thats easy enough. However if you fly, you will find that nearly all airlines insist on photo id, and only a handful of identity documents are acceptable. The main one being a passport. So in practice, if flying to Ireland, you do need a passport. But if going by ferry you could probably use a bus pass. (Best advised to check with the operator in advance, but thats my understanding anyway).

Also, Irish airports have routine passport control, even for flights from the UK. Whilst passports are in theory not required for UK nationals, you have to prove that you are British or Irish. That's tricky to do without a passport.

Bletchleyite · 20 Nov 2016

radamfi said:
Also, Irish airports have routine passport control, even for flights from the UK. Whilst passports are in theory not required for UK nationals, you have to prove that you are British or Irish. That's tricky to do without a passport.

AIUI UK photo driving licences are routinely accepted (even though they don't technically prove nationality).

Hornet · 20 Nov 2016

Neil Williams said:
AIUI UK photo driving licences are routinely accepted (even though they don't technically prove nationality).

Only use my Passport to/from UK if flying Ryanair. Other carriers I use my Driving Licence. Have never had a problem in 35 years of flying and ferry to/from UK (roughly once fortnightly) using my Driving Licence, (or c/c pre 9/11) at either Dublin Airport/Ferryport, Rosslare or any UK point of entry. I sail through Passport Control at Dublin Airport as quickly with my DL as I do with my Passport if coming in from outside the CTA.

duesselmartin · 3 Jan 2017

This seems to re-surface with the Commission questioning the Belgian plans now. While Today's Railways magazine seen this theme as dead, a radio interview by Jan Jambon (interior minister / home secretary) suggests otherwise. PNR Data should be stored for both trains and cross border bus journeys. A descision is expected by the end of the month.

33Hz · 4 Jan 2017

I noticed that I have had to give my name on Eurostar trips for the past couple of months. I wonder if this is in any way related.

Bletchleyite · 4 Jan 2017

33Hz said:
I noticed that I have had to give my name on Eurostar trips for the past couple of months. I wonder if this is in any way related.

If you book directly or via SNCF (I think) you have had to for ages, if you book via DB, NS etc you don't, or at least didn't until recently.

I'll be interested to see how this is implemented for local bus routes and stopping train services!

33Hz · 4 Jan 2017

Neil Williams said:
If you book directly or via SNCF (I think) you have had to for ages

I travel on Eurostar at least once a month and the first time I had to do this (after booking and before I was able to obtain my e-ticket) was November.

OwlMan · 29 Jan 2017

Agreement has been reached between France, Uk & Belgium about passenger lists.
http://deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws.english/News/1.2876366

Belgium, the Netherlands, France and the United Kingdom have reached an agreement that will see the introduction of passenger lists and passport checks on those travelling on the international high speed train services Thalys and Eurostar. This will enable the police and the security services to check whether there are wanted criminals travelling aboard the trains. However, no agreement has been reached on passport checks and passenger lists for non-high speed rail and bus/coach services. The Belgian Interior Minister Jan Jambon (Flemish Nationalist) told VRT News that he and his counterparts from the Netherlands, France and the UK reached an agreement on Thursday evening. The passenger lists for Eurostar and Thalys trains will be checked against a list of wanted terrorists.

We have agreed that together will the rail service providers we will look into how we can register the names of passengers.
It is our intention that the system will be operational before the end of the year. A working party will now hold consultative talks with Thalys and Eurostar with the aim of drawing up a first draft proposal by the end of March...................................

Bletchleyite · 29 Jan 2017

Eurostar is already doing UK API, so that won't be hard.

Thalys, well, that's rather a game changer. But won't the terrorists just travel by car?

RT4038 · 29 Jan 2017

Neil Williams said:
Eurostar is already doing UK API, so that won't be hard.

Thalys, well, that's rather a game changer. But won't the terrorists just travel by car?

I am sure Thalys would be only too pleased if they did.

duesselmartin · 29 Jan 2017

What about cross border to Germany and regional cross border services or international bus services?

MarcVD · 29 Jan 2017

Indeed there are several of those. Lille, Luxembourg, Aachen, Maastricht, Rosendaal are all reachable by regional train. Plus the ICE to Koln and Frankfurt, and the hourly train to Amsterdam. None of them seem to be concerned by this (hopefully).

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Goldfish62 · 31 Jan 2017

Neil Williams said:
Eurostar is already doing UK API, so that won't be hard.

Thalys, well, that's rather a game changer. But won't the terrorists just travel by car?

They don't really do API. They just require names on the tickets which they then completely ignore. Also DB sparpreis tickets valid on Eurostar have no names on them at all.

Bletchleyite · 31 Jan 2017

Goldfish62 said:
They don't really do API.

They *do* do API, they are legally required to do it. The way they do it is scanning your passport or ID on check-in.

Goldfish62 · 31 Jan 2017

MarcVD said:
DB threatens Belgium to cancel ICE services to Brussels if PNR législation for rail passes :

http://mobile.lesoir.be/1330200/art...ins-fer-allemands-menacent-boycotter-belgique

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I read somewhere (Today's Railways I think) that this proposal had been thrown out without further ado.

Goldfish62 · 31 Jan 2017

Neil Williams said:
They *do* do API, they are legally required to do it. The way they do it is scanning your passport or ID on check-in.

Ah, apologies, probably me getting the technical aspects wrong. I meant the bit where airlines require your full details ahead of check-in.

duesselmartin · 31 Jan 2017

Goldfish62 said:
I read somewhere (Today's Railways I think) that this proposal had been thrown out without further ado.

Sadly its back in the table again.

Bletchleyite · 31 Jan 2017

Goldfish62 said:
Ah, apologies, probably me getting the technical aspects wrong. I meant the bit where airlines require your full details ahead of check-in.

You can also give them at check-in at the airport if you're going to a desk (though obviously some airlines will clout you for a fee if you do that). It's done in advance so security don't have to concern themselves with checking IDs.

That's basically how Eurostar do everyone's. The key is that it's sent off before departure so there is the opportunity to apprehend on arrival if necessary, or if it's really serious stop the departure to apprehend. It isn't intended to make short-notice travel impossible, nor does it actually do that.

Bletchleyite · 31 Jan 2017

RT4038 said:
I am sure Thalys would be only too pleased if they did.

I'd imagine they would. But this isn't about a "no-train list", it's about tracking terrorists' movements. If they go by (someone else's) car or indeed local train/bus, that ability is lost. The only way to actually stop it is to reinstate border controls - and even then European borders were traditionally rather porous.

Goldfish62 · 1 Feb 2017

Neil Williams said:
You can also give them at check-in at the airport if you're going to a desk (though obviously some airlines will clout you for a fee if you do that). It's done in advance so security don't have to concern themselves with checking IDs.

That's basically how Eurostar do everyone's. The key is that it's sent off before departure so there is the opportunity to apprehend on arrival if necessary, or if it's really serious stop the departure to apprehend. It isn't intended to make short-notice travel impossible, nor does it actually do that.

Thanks for the explanation. Very interesting. I hadn't realised that you can give the details at check in, not that I ever use a check in desk.

Goldfish62 · 1 Feb 2017

RT4038 said:
I am sure Thalys would be only too pleased if they did.

And Eurostar direct to Germany from St Pancras might become an attractive option?

TCDD · 2 Feb 2017

Neil Williams said:
They *do* do API, they are legally required to do it. The way they do it is scanning your passport or ID on check-in.

When did this start? I have never shown my passport or ID at check in as it is an automatic gate. My last trip was in October.

Bletchleyite · 2 Feb 2017

TCDD said:
When did this start? I have never shown my passport or ID at check in as it is an automatic gate. My last trip was in October.

You show it and have it scanned at immigration immediately afterwards, don't you?

Goldfish62 · 3 Feb 2017

Neil Williams said:
You show it and have it scanned at immigration immediately afterwards, don't you?

I used Eurostar on a return trip via Paris last week. I only needed my ticket to open the gates. No inspection by immigration, French or British.

Belgium: Passenger name regulation could destroy cross-border rail

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