Virgin Trains ticket row

Tetchytyke · 5 Feb 2017

thedbdiboy said:
It's actually British Rail's fares structure embedded in the the regulatory matrix. A pretty large number of fare anomalies can be traced back to one or another piece of 1995 regulation that the DfT hasn't updated.

Given that Virgin, and Virgin alone, decide what peak hours are and set the price of the unregulated Anytime fare, that is complete nonsense.

But that's the strange thing with Saint Richard. He commits what is, basically, larceny, and we still get 12 pages of why it's everybody else's fault. It isn't. It's his greed that is causing the bad press. Luckily for the sainted beard, it'll stick to it like Teflon.

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sheff1 · 5 Feb 2017

Indigo2 said:
As far as I can see, there's nothing in fares regulation that requires Virgin to

have such stringent peak restrictions on the Preston to London Off-Peak Return

have much less stringent peak restrictions from Lancaster compared to Preston

have the Preston to London Anytime Return priced at such an expensive level

Isn't it in Virgin's power to change any of these situations? They could add more restrictions on the Lancaster fare, reduce the restrictions on the Preston fare, or reduce the Preston Anytime fare to a level where there wasn't such a "price cliff" compared to the Off-Peak fare.

The situation may have been inherited from British Rail, but there are seem to be plenty of options for Virgin to normalise it.

The situation was not inherited from BR.

In NFM71 (1999) the Saver Return from Preston was £52.60 & the Open Return £119

Currently the Off Peak Return is £89.30 & the Anytime Return £351.

So Virgin have increased the unregulated fare from a multiple of 2.26 times the SVR/OPR fare to a multiple of 3.93 times.

A return to a multiplier of 2.26 would give an Anytime fare of £201.80.

Kendalian · 5 Feb 2017

Arctic Troll said:
Given that Virgin, and Virgin alone, decide what peak hours are and set the price of the unregulated Anytime fare, that is complete nonsense.

But that's the strange thing with Saint Richard. He commits what is, basically, larceny, and we still get 12 pages of why it's everybody else's fault. It isn't. It's his greed that is causing the bad press. Luckily for the sainted beard, it'll stick to it like Teflon.

The Bearded One realised a long time ago he was running a private monopoly where he could make the rules up as he went along, whether it was the fares or the car park charges.

I've argued the Railway's case all my life to family, friends, colleagues etc and was often ridiculed for it. Now when I'm asked why is it massively cheaper to drive up the M6 21 miles to get on the same train earlier to go to the same place, I can't give a repeatable answer.

That is embarrasing.

LeylandLen · 5 Feb 2017

Two points from me
1 Train managers do not always check every ticket on trains to/from Preston and Euston. Just impossible on a full Pendelino. Sometimes mine wasn't checked yet he did others around me.

2 The Ormskirk Euston off peak fare was at one time cheaper than the Preston one on the same train as Ormskirk fares were in the Liverpool group.
Which did I buy online then ..??

Virgin also discontinued at short notice the concession that if you had a railcard, then you could buy and use off-peak on peak trains such as the afore mentioned 0758 from Preston to Euston or the one before at 0658 which I DID sometimes being a respected senior citizen .

najaB · 5 Feb 2017

Kendalian said:
The Bearded One realised a long time ago he was running a private monopoly where he could make the rules up as he went along....

Seeing as it is possible to get from every station served by VT to every other station served by VT without using VT it isn't a monopoly.

Kendalian said:
Now when I'm asked why is it massively cheaper to drive up the M6 21 miles to get on the same train earlier to go to the same place, I can't give a repeatable answer.

Virgin could make things a lot simpler and easier to explain by extending the peak restrictions north to Lancaster. Be careful what you ask for.

craigwilson · 6 Feb 2017

soil said:
In practice, the train staff may be viewed as a 'credible witness' and his testimony may be accepted as true, unless the passenger can prove otherwise.

What are the legalities of this, considering that the member of train staff would be (in this case) an employee of the prosecuting party, therefore there is a clear conflict of interest when it comes to a court case?

Haywain · 6 Feb 2017

craigwilson said:
What are the legalities of this, considering that the member of train staff would be (in this case) an employee of the prosecuting party, therefore there is a clear conflict of interest when it comes to a court case?

Wouldn't that be covered by laws about perjury and perverting the course of justice?

pemma · 6 Feb 2017

AlterEgo said:
They gave him free first class tickets.

What if the businessman's meeting was to pitch his company to win a £5000 a month contract? A couple hundred pounds worth of train tickets are worthless in comparison.

pemma · 6 Feb 2017

najaB said:
Seeing as it is possible to get from every station served by VT to every other station served by VT without using VT it isn't a monopoly.

But that's a bit like saying despite there being 3 Sainsburys supermarkets in a town and no other supermarkets, they don't have a monopoly because people can drive to another supermarket 10 miles away.

While for a journey between Wigan and London it's possible to use Northern to Lime Street and then 2 x LM trains to get to London, it's not really a viable alternative for a lot of people.

MikeWh · 6 Feb 2017

gray1404 said:
Applogies Mike I was under the impression that the person missed the ticket check before Preston and then when another ticket check was carried out after Preston they were accused of only boarding at Preston because the ticket had not been marked.

Also, I believe there is a crew change at Preston so I think it would be a different guard before Preston and another after.

I am a little confused by your paragraph sorry, that start "It seems likely...." could you clarify what you are getting at here? Thanks!

It's all clear in the Lancashire Evening Post quote in the first post.

For the last paragraph I'm saying that he usually gets cheap advances from Preston and is a fairly regular traveller, so possibly he's known by certain train managers. That knowledge may have confused the TM who 'forgot' that this time the guy had joined at Lancaster. Not an excuse, obviously, but a possible explanation.

najaB · 6 Feb 2017

jcollins said:
But that's a bit like saying despite there being 3 Sainsburys supermarkets in a town and no other supermarkets, they don't have a monopoly because people can drive to another supermarket 10 miles away.

Two words: home delivery.

jcollins said:
While for a journey between Wigan and London it's possible to use Northern to Lime Street and then 2 x LM trains to get to London, it's not really a viable alternative for a lot of people.

In the same way, VT's competition isn't just other TOCs. It's the rail and non-rail alternatives for any journey.

island · 6 Feb 2017

jcollins said:
What if the businessman's meeting was to pitch his company to win a £5000 a month contract? A couple hundred pounds worth of train tickets are worthless in comparison.

But the NRCoT, which he agreed to when buying the ticket, excludes liability for consequential losses.

Bletchleyite · 6 Feb 2017

LeylandLen said:
2 The Ormskirk Euston off peak fare was at one time cheaper than the Preston one on the same train as Ormskirk fares were in the Liverpool group.

That fare is not valid via Preston and never has been (so long as the Routeing Guide has existed) because it fails, and always did fail, the Fares Check for travel via the Preston routeing point. Only via Wigan (via the Burscoughs or Kirkby), via Liverpool or via Chester[1] are permitted. If you want to go via Preston you have to split. Though with a vastly inferior service I can't see why anyone would.

[1] This one is a bit obscure but actually provides the fastest journey to MKC at most times of the day, though it's probably irrelevant if going to London itself.

AlterEgo · 6 Feb 2017

jcollins said:
What if the businessman's meeting was to pitch his company to win a £5000 a month contract? A couple hundred pounds worth of train tickets are worthless in comparison.

Then obviously he'd ask for more compensation (but wouldn't necessarily be entitled to it!)

It seems like the victim is happy with the compensation offered.

pemma · 6 Feb 2017

najaB said:
Two words: home delivery.

In the same way, VT's competition isn't just other TOCs. It's the rail and non-rail alternatives for any journey.

If one company has a monopoly on apples it doesn't mean it's OK as pears are available.

Brian Souter is involved in a lot of transport activities - rail and non-rail. You could use a Stagecoach bus to get to Penrith station, then a VT service to Preston, then a Megabus service to Manchester, then an EMT service to Sheffield, then catch a National Express coach service (operated by Stagecoach Yorkshire) and then a bus service operated by a small independent operator who use Alexander Dennis Enviro buses and Mr. Souter's companies will have been involved in every leg of your journey! If you had a ride on Supertram in Sheffield while waiting for the coach then you would use another Souter company.

najaB · 6 Feb 2017

jcollins said:
If one company has a monopoly on apples it doesn't mean it's OK as pears are available.

But there is no monopoly. Using your example, who in Wigan has no alternative but to use VT to get to London?

Do they dominate the market? Yes. Do they have a monopoly on transport between the locations they serve? No.

pemma · 6 Feb 2017

island said:
But the NRCoT, which he agreed to when buying the ticket, excludes liability for consequential losses.

But where does it entitle a TOC to detain a passenger who is holding a valid ticket and hasn't broken any bye-laws? If the train broke down and he missed his meeting then I agree he's not entitled to anything beyond his ticket value but in this case VT have acted illegally and offering a free ticket, which is effectively equivalent to a fare evader saying because they forget their wallet they'll make an extra journey later in the week and pay for that.

pemma · 6 Feb 2017

najaB said:
But there is no monopoly. Using your example, who in Wigan has no alternative but to use VT to get to London?

If you say 'Intercity rail travel' is a product or service then under the dictionary definition of monopoly then Virgin have a monopoly for that product or service between the North West and London.

najaB · 6 Feb 2017

jcollins said:
If you say 'Intercity rail travel' is a product or service then under the dictionary definition of monopoly then Virgin have a monopoly for that product or service between the North West and London.

If you make it 'Direct intercity rail travel' then yes, I agree. But the same is true of most areas, it's the nature of the franchising model. Birmingham-London is one of the few flows that has true on-track competition.

Bletchleyite · 6 Feb 2017

jcollins said:
If you say 'Intercity rail travel' is a product or service then under the dictionary definition of monopoly then Virgin have a monopoly for that product or service between the North West and London.

It isn't, though. The product is "getting to London". There are a multitude of options - car, air, coach (two operators), direct Virgin train, connecting other operator's train, or many combinations of those.

The section of the market rail has as a whole is so low that on-rail competition is not worth worrying about.

WelshBluebird · 6 Feb 2017

Neil Williams said:
It isn't, though. The product is "getting to London". There are a multitude of options - car, air, coach (two operators), direct Virgin train, connecting other operator's train, or many combinations of those.

The section of the market rail has as a whole is so low that on-rail competition is not worth worrying about.

Although I would argue in some areas of the country, while you don't actually have a monopoly in the literal sense, you may aswell have one. Certainly in either the more remote areas which rely on a particular form of public transport (be that bus or train) and in terms of some of the commuter routes into central London too. Sure these aren't actual monopolies with no other options, but the other options are so much more impractical that you pretty much are forced into a particular choice.

Bletchleyite · 6 Feb 2017

WelshBluebird said:
Although I would argue in some areas of the country, while you don't actually have a monopoly in the literal sense, you may aswell have one. Certainly in either the more remote areas which rely on a particular form of public transport (be that bus or train) and in terms of some of the commuter routes into central London too. Sure these aren't actual monopolies with no other options, but the other options are so much more impractical that you pretty much are forced into a particular choice.

More remote areas, though, are not ones where there ever will be any competition even in a totally open market - the competition is at the point of tendering to provide the service they get, as any service will require hefty subsidy.

London commuters I sort-of get, though in much of the South East anyone who drives can probably make it to a choice of two operators. From MKC you can for example use Aylesbury - and by contrast quite a lot of people from the Aylesbury area instead drive to Tring. Meanwhile south east of London the commuter coaches seem to also be doing good business.

But anyway we are talking about the WCML. London to Manchester probably has the most competition of any long-distance transport route in the UK.

island · 6 Feb 2017

jcollins said:
But where does it entitle a TOC to detain a passenger who is holding a valid ticket and hasn't broken any bye-laws? If the train broke down and he missed his meeting then I agree he's not entitled to anything beyond his ticket value but in this case VT have acted illegally and offering a free ticket, which is effectively equivalent to a fare evader saying because they forget their wallet they'll make an extra journey later in the week and pay for that.

Was it the TOC or the BTP who detained the passenger?

SickyNicky · 6 Feb 2017

Neil Williams said:
That fare is not valid via Preston and never has been (so long as the Routeing Guide has existed) because it fails, and always did fail, the Fares Check for travel via the Preston routeing point. Only via Wigan (via the Burscoughs or Kirkby), via Liverpool or via Chester[1] are permitted. If you want to go via Preston you have to split. Though with a vastly inferior service I can't see why anyone would.

[1] This one is a bit obscure but actually provides the fastest journey to MKC at most times of the day, though it's probably irrelevant if going to London itself.

Are you sure about that? It seems to me that is passes the fares check for Preston just fine. The Routeing Point Calculator agrees. The reason it's not valid is because of:

Easement 700192 (published by TOC VT)
Customers travelling from London Euston to Ormskirk in possession of tickets routed 'Any Permitted' may not travel via Preston. This easement applies in both directions.

Bletchleyite · 6 Feb 2017

SickyNicky said:
Are you sure about that? It seems to me that is passes the fares check for Preston just fine. The Routeing Point Calculator agrees. The reason it's not valid is because of:

Easement 700192 (published by TOC VT)
Customers travelling from London Euston to Ormskirk in possession of tickets routed 'Any Permitted' may not travel via Preston. This easement applies in both directions.

I stand corrected.

Traditionally in BR days the Preston tickets were always more expensive than the Ormskirk/Wigan/Liverpool ones, and via Preston was not considered "Reasonable" as it involves using an infrequent service to travel roughly 20 miles in the wrong direction before heading to London rather than using a frequent one that goes in the correct direction. It does look like the Anytime tickets have been brought into line which does make it pass the Fares Check.

However, by the precise wording of that easement, it would seem to me to be very easy to circumvent should anyone be so inclined. I won't post how, as no doubt another dis-easement will pop up within days if I do, but to anyone who lives around there or has done it should be mind-numbingly obvious what it is.

pemma · 6 Feb 2017

island said:
Was it the TOC or the BTP who detained the passenger?

It was BTP after Virgin made a false claim. If the passenger had been found to make a false claim to BTP I imagine they would be prosecuted.

pemma · 6 Feb 2017

Neil Williams said:
It isn't, though. The product is "getting to London".

..

coach (two operators)

So spending a night in your own bed and getting an early fast train to London the next morning is equivalent to an overnight trip on a National Express coach? Obviously the businessman in question will be looking at the latter option given how Virgin have treated him and won't be bothered about arriving at important meetings tired or in clothes he wore overnight because it is an equivalent product to the train.

Bletchleyite · 6 Feb 2017

jcollins said:
So spending a night in your own bed and getting an early fast train to London the next morning is equivalent to an overnight trip on a National Express coach?

No, of course it isn't. That's the whole point of competition. National Express and Megabus are cheap. The train is expensive. Flying is in between (in the peak). The train is quicker than the coach. Flying is quicker than the train. Etc.

Obviously the businessman in question will be looking at the latter option given how Virgin have treated him and won't be bothered about arriving at important meetings tired or in clothes he wore overnight because it is an equivalent product to the train.

No, but he might consider a flight, or driving, or driving and staying at a hotel just outside London overnight and taking the Tube in, or driving and taking the Tube in same day, or....

Equally, a student might consider splitting tickets and using LM, or they might consider coach, or they might consider booking well in advance to get a cheap fare on VT. They might not consider car if they don't own one. They might not consider hotel if it's a bit pricey, though they might stay with their mate.

There is a vast array of choices - arguably more for that journey than any other UK long-distance one. Only some of them will be applicable to each "I need to get from Manchester to London" requirement. But then that's the same in most industries; if I want to impress someone I'm not going to buy them a bar of Tesco Value Chocolate, am I?

Haywain · 6 Feb 2017

jcollins said:
It was BTP after Virgin made a false claim. If the passenger had been found to make a false claim to BTP I imagine they would be prosecuted.

You appear to be reading a lot into the reports that isn't actually there. The Passenger said he "ordered to buy another ticket or be fined and detained at Euston where British Transport Police were waiting." He also says he was questioned by the BTP, but he doesn't say he was detained or arrested. From experience, in situations like this BTP act as an intermediary and help to ensure that discussion of the issue is dealt with in a sensible manner. They may well have advised the passenger that it would be appropriate to hang around and resolve the issue but I wasn't there, and nor were you, so we won't ever know unless the passenger decides to join us and give his side of the story rather then the press version.

pemma · 6 Feb 2017

Neil Williams said:
No, of course it isn't. That's the whole point of competition. National Express and Megabus are cheap. The train is expensive. Flying is in between (in the peak). The train is quicker than the coach. Flying is quicker than the train. Etc.

And the direct competition is there for the coach - NX or Stagecoach.

There was direct competition for flights but Manchester-London flights have been cut back a lot in the last couple of years - Virgin Atlantic's service was short lived while BA have significantly reduced the number of flights they operate. Really the reason there were so many was because BA wanted the Manchester market but didn't want to operate international flights from Manchester. However, that's in the process of changing.

Then for trains - every time someone other than Virgin tries to operate a service between Manchester and London, VT throws it's toys out of the pram and get its own way. The most relative alternative is to travel via Sheffield but that involves using Stagecoach companies, with Virgin Trains also being just under half owned by Stagecoach, so Stagecoach have a monopoly.

But then that's the same in most industries; if I want to impress someone I'm not going to buy them a bar of Tesco Value Chocolate, am I?

What are you using it for? If it's dark chocolate and going in a cake mixture then no-one will know what brand of chocolate you used. However, if Tesco only sold milk chocolate and your recipe needs dark chocolate then it wouldn't be a suitable product so if Sainsburys only sold dark chocolate and those are the two supermarkets you have available then the only choice you have is whether or not you buy the right product from Sainsburys or the wrong product from Tescos.

Virgin Trains ticket row

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