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No Conductors on short journeys

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tothetrains

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I live in the north, where most trains are run by 'Northern' and most stations are operated by 'Northern'.
Sometimes I get the train home from my school instead of the buses as they often get stuck in traffic.
The train journey from the school's local station to my local station is 4 minutes at most. However, the conductor often doesn't come round. My local station has ticket barriers but they never get turned on, and my school's station is just a suburban one with no machines or staff at all.
Am I in the wrong for simply getting off 4 minutes down the line without paying?
 
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Bletchleyite

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Plenty of people do it every day, but those same people probably wouldn't nick a can of Coke from their local newsagent if the shopkeeper had popped out to the back to the loo and left the shop unlocked, which is broadly[1] equivalent.

Is there a ticket office at your destination where you could pay on arrival? Or does the TVM do remote issue?

[1] Not totally, as your having taken the journey without paying doesn't leave them without a journey to sell to someone else.
 
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I live in the north, where most trains are run by 'Northern' and most stations are operated by 'Northern'.
Sometimes I get the train home from my school instead of the buses as they often get stuck in traffic.
The train journey from the school's local station to my local station is 4 minutes at most. However, the conductor often doesn't come round. My local station has ticket barriers but they never get turned on, and my school's station is just a suburban one with no machines or staff at all.
Am I in the wrong for simply getting off 4 minutes down the line without paying?

No there is nothing wrong with what you are doing. If the station you are travelling from doesnt have any ticket machines or ticket offices and the Guard doesnt have time (or cant be bothered) to walk through the train then that is the TOCs problem not yours. Many people (including myself sometimes) travel for free because of this.
 

221129

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No there is nothing wrong with what you are doing. If the station you are travelling from doesnt have any ticket machines or ticket offices and the Guard doesnt have time (or cant be bothered) to walk through the train then that is the TOCs problem not yours. Many people (including myself sometimes) travel for free because of this.

However if there is an open ticket office at your destination you must use it.
 

455driver

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I wonder why the OP doesnt get the train and a return ticket in the morning, they state it has barriers and so must have a ticket machine!
 

soil

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Plenty of people do it every day, but those same people probably wouldn't nick a can of Coke from their local newsagent if the shopkeeper had popped out to the back to the loo and left the shop unlocked, which is broadly[1] equivalent.

Is there a ticket office at your destination where you could pay on arrival? Or does the TVM do remote issue?

[1] Not totally, as your having taken the journey without paying doesn't leave them without a journey to sell to someone else.


It's more comparable to downloading a pirated movie or an mp3. That's probably even more prevalent. And the only reason most people pay for train fares is for fear of getting punished if they don't. If it was entirely voluntary there would be few people that bothered to pay.

It's not really comparable with removing physical property.
 

crehld

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I can't see how it's your fault that Northern have failed to provide adequate ticket issuing facilities at your school's local destination, the guard doesn't have time (or can't be bothered) to get to you on the train, additional on-board ticket selling staff haven't been provided, or that adequate facilities (be they staff or machines allowing you purchase tickets with a different origin) haven't been provided at your destination (I'm assuming this is the case - you haven't told us). So it strikes me you're not being provided the opportunity to purchase a ticket, rather than you doing anything wrong.

If I were you I would mention to the guard as you board that you're getting off in a couple of minutes and you need to buy a ticket (that's usually what I do when I take the short hop from Long Preston to Hellifield, for example) - you've clearly demonstrated your intent to purchase a ticket and it's then up to them if they want to sell you one.

I wonder why the OP doesnt get the train and a return ticket in the morning, they state it has barriers and so must have a ticket machine!

Because, as stated, they usually get the bus and taking the train home is an occasional thing to avoid traffic?
 
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crehld

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Is there a ticket office at your destination where you could pay on arrival? Or does the TVM do remote issue?

This being Northern, many ticket offices (where they exist) are only open for limited periods usually in the morning peak and TVMs (last time I checked) do not allow you to sell tickets from alternative destinations.
 

yorkie

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I live in the north, where most trains are run by 'Northern' and most stations are operated by 'Northern'.
Sometimes I get the train home from my school instead of the buses as they often get stuck in traffic.
The train journey from the school's local station to my local station is 4 minutes at most. However, the conductor often doesn't come round. My local station has ticket barriers but they never get turned on, and my school's station is just a suburban one with no machines or staff at all.
Am I in the wrong for simply getting off 4 minutes down the line without paying?
There is insufficient information provided to answer the question.

What stations are they? Is there a facility to issue the ticket you require, using your chosen payment method, at your origin or destination?
 

Bungle965

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If you really wanted to pay for your journey then you can buy it on your mobile and you that as your ticket. I`m sure that would what northern would want you to do, however as far as I am aware there is no obligation to do so.
Sam
 

455driver

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I am wondering how the OP expects the guard to do a full ticket check, issue tickets to people without them and get back to the rear of the train in 4 minutes?

Maybe the OP could assist the guard by getting on at the very rear of the train where the guard might have a slim chance of getting to them.
 

crehld

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I am wondering how the OP expects the guard to do a full ticket check, issue tickets to people without them and get back to the rear of the train in 4 minutes?

Because most people in the real world aren't all that familiar with the in and outs of the multiple and complex duties of a guard, nor are they intimately aware of the challenges facing the operation of a heavily loaded, frequently stopping suburban service. They just get on the train and expect it to go.

Maybe the OP could assist the guard by getting on at the very rear of the train where the guard might have a slim chance of getting to them.

Yes, as per my suggestion. bungle965's mobile ticket suggestion is also worth merit, providing the OP is willing and has a compatible and functioning smartphone with internet access. Of course Northern could simply provide adequate ticket issuing facilities, which would make everyone's life a lot easier!
 

Via Bank

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I am wondering how the OP expects the guard to do a full ticket check, issue tickets to people without them and get back to the rear of the train in 4 minutes?
Has it occurred to you that OP may not even know the difference between a train guard and a ticket inspector/ticket seller? And even if they do know that the guard also has to do the doors, how do they know there isn't a guard's panel at each door set (as on some stock)?

And frankly, why should they have to concern themselves with the practicalities of the rolling stock and the guard's job spec?
 

brompton rail

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If you really wanted to pay for your journey then you can buy it on your mobile and you that as your ticket. I`m sure that would what northern would want you to do, however as far as I am aware there is no obligation to do so.
Sam

I have to agree that this is the simplest answer. Purchase ticket via Northern's App on a smartphone.

To do so,
- you need to register with Northern (after downloading the App, of course!)
- register a credit/ debit card with the app
- book your ticket BEFORE you board the train.

If stopped by RPIs you have a valid ticket.

Easy-peasy
 

Bletchleyite

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This being Northern, many ticket offices (where they exist) are only open for limited periods usually in the morning peak and TVMs (last time I checked) do not allow you to sell tickets from alternative destinations.

They increasingly do, FWIW. The SWT-style software seems to be being rolled out across other TOCs (LM now have it) and that offers full remote issue. Don't know if Northern will be getting it any time soon.
 

455driver

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And frankly, why should they have to concern themselves with the practicalities of the rolling stock and the guard's job spec?

Uh because they are complaining about the Guard not doing their job properly!
Or is it too much to ask for the Twitter generation to have a basic understanding about something before they complain!
Actually dont bother answering the last question, I think we all know the answer to that one! ;) :lol:
 

Merseysider

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Though if you stop at it and buy a ticket you are likely to get a surprised look from the seller! Few actually would even if they indeed should.
Heard of quite a lot of people getting done this way, especially at Preston. Got on at whatever station, no chance to buy, but when they arrive they walk out the side entrance instead of going to the ticket office and get collared by stealthy RPIs <D
 

Bletchleyite

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Heard of quite a lot of people getting done this way, especially at Preston. Got on at whatever station, no chance to buy, but when they arrive they walk out the side entrance instead of going to the ticket office and get collared by stealthy RPIs <D

Northern are particularly sly in this regard. They would do better to sort their own shop out first so there is always an opportunity to purchase at the origin before doing this. Why should I have to delay my arrival to queue at a ticket office because the TOC can't be bothered to provide a means of payment at my origin? Other TOCs manage to ensure TVMs are provided.
 

terryc

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It took me 5 attempts to purchase a ticket the other week on my early morning journey from NLW to MIA
NLW- Ticket office unmanned (1st attempt)
NLW- TVM not working (2nd attempt)
I approached the guard on the train (note, not the other way round) to purchase a ticket. The surprising reply "can't sell you a ticket as my machine is broken, you'll have to pay at the Airport" (Thoughts of revenue protection at the platform exit sprung to mind!) ...3rd attempt
Although the lights were on at MIA, there wasn't anyone actually manning the ticket office! (4th attempt)
Finally purchased at MIA TVM, and used the outward portion on my return trip later in the day.
No wonder people don't pay!
 

Bletchleyite

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Yes, Northern's revenue business model appears to be based on catching people out, and it is a total disgrace. It will be interesting to see if having got rid of the dross at the top the attitude changes so it is more like most other TOCs in that they look to provide a proper means to pay at each station (TVM accepting cash and card) or ensure fares are collected on board, then a draconian approach can be justified.

Other TOCs don't find it hard to do this properly, I've never understood why Northern do.
 

robbeech

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If the OP is on the way to/from school they should get a season ticket.

I believe they stated the normally catch the bus but sometimes the train if traffic is particularly bad, perhaps there is a significant price difference or bus travel is subsidised fully or in part by the school. I agree if this was a daily travel thing then this would be the best idea financially aswell as for convenience.
 

tothetrains

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Quick things to clarify:
1. I only get the train home
2. The starting station has NO ticket issuing facilities whatsoever
3. Signs on the platform instruct you to buy tickets on the train
4. I do not make the journey enough times to warrant a season ticket
5. I was asking, mainly, about the legality of getting off at the destination without paying

(quick point: I am in the middle of GCSE exams, so I'm not some 12 year old going for a cheeky train ride because he feels like it)
 
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yorkie

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Quick things to clarify:
1. I only get the train home
2. The starting station has NO ticket issuing facilities whatsoever
3. Signs on the platform instruct you to buy tickets on the train
4. I do not make the journey enough times to warrant a season ticket
5. I was asking, mainly, about the legality of getting off at the destination without paying
If there is an open ticket office, then you are supposed to follow the signs to it and purchase your ticket there.

If there isn't an open ticket office, then unless additional staff are at the exit, you have no opportunity to pay.
 

philthetube

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It took me 5 attempts to purchase a ticket the other week on my early morning journey from NLW to MIA
NLW- Ticket office unmanned (1st attempt)
NLW- TVM not working (2nd attempt)
I approached the guard on the train (note, not the other way round) to purchase a ticket. The surprising reply "can't sell you a ticket as my machine is broken, you'll have to pay at the Airport" (Thoughts of revenue protection at the platform exit sprung to mind!) ...3rd attempt
Although the lights were on at MIA, there wasn't anyone actually manning the ticket office! (4th attempt)
Finally purchased at MIA TVM, and used the outward portion on my return trip later in the day.
No wonder people don't pay!

A forum full of people trying to solve the railways problems and it seems impossible to prevent this sort of double dutch being posted. Some hope for the railway.

At least this is fixable, if the mods deleted all posts using station codes the issue would be fixed overnight.
 
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